384 réponses à ce sujet

[Saurel]

GoldenusG wrote...

By all means, kill him off, but the 'Join, No, Die' method used is too jarring for me. No effort was put in to persuade him. And that is what bugged me.

Indeed and Duncan definitely sucks when it comes to calming people down

*Duncan's mind*

Jory is freaking out, my response- corner him and tell him there is no other way in a Cultist-like way.
*Exitting Duncan's Mind*

It would be interesting if part of the motivation was to make sure you didn't try anything especially if you were the recruit with the most potential and the one who might be able to actually do something if you wanted to get out of it.

Modifié par Saurel, 22 novembre 2009 - 08:20 .

[soteria]

Although I think Jory got what he deserved--he knew he might die before he saw Daveth die, but only backed out after someone else took a chance first--I still call that murder. He was trying to run away, not attack. I think he knew Duncan was coming at him to kill him, so he drew his weapon and swung to defend himself.



We don't know his story or why he even considered joining the Grey Wardens, so it's hard to say what his motivation was and why he backed out so easily.



Let's say I want to join a gang, and am told that once my initiation begins, I'll be killed if I back out. I go through a few initial tests, and then eventually find out that initiation consists of taking heroin laced with "some other stuff." I've seen another guy take this stuff and die. I lose my nerve and back out, grabbing a baseball bat as I back away--and get plugged in the chest.



Was I asking to get killed by putting myself in that situation? Yes. Was it murder? You betcha. The only difference in the Joining is that arguably the Grey Wardens are above the law in this situation, but I still call it murder, even if they can't be prosecuted for it.

[Saurel]

soteria wrote...

Although I think Jory got what he deserved--he knew he might die before he saw Daveth die,

Duncan probably should have been more explicit and said "You may die and your courage, skills and experience won't help you in the least. Nothing you know in this world can possibly help you survive this process. Its completely random"

Modifié par Saurel, 22 novembre 2009 - 08:27 .

[MFCell]

The big difference is that the "gang" you were joining is not the only gang that can stop the coming wipe out of humanity.



If the gang that demanded you die or joined them WAS the only gang capable of saving the world, then the motives behind their actions seems more warranted.



Sorry you got shot trying to get into the jumprope line tho. XD

[Skellimancer]

*watches Duncan kill Jory*



"Pass the blood! i sure am thirsty!"

[Saurel]

what I found slightly amusing was how quickly Duncan could tell Daveth died, you basically do the eye thing and pass out right?



I suppose maybe Duncan can feel your taint if you are still alive?



It would have been funny if Daveth waked up after Jory was killed.

[Eolath]

Duncan is a murderer, and he rocks at it. Let's admit it, nobody liked Jory - Duncan shared this opinion and wanted to relieve the world of the virus we call ''Jory''



Good job Duncan!

[Rugaru]

From a story perspective the Daveth/Jory scene is extremely useful in giving you the severity of the case. Daveth's story tells you that no matter how willing or prepared you are you may not survive, and Jory's story shows that Warden's can not be allowed to be soft. It is used as a hammer to pound home the seriousness of the situation.



Another point that people seem not to see is that the harrowing is almost the exact same situation but seems to be overlooked simply because you "met" and "knew" Jory. With the harrowing you either go through it or "die" (tranquility or being hunted by templars) and if you fail you die (templar cuts off your head). Yet no one seems to have a problem with the harrowing but everyone is up in arms about pathetic Jory dieing.



If prior to the actual ritual you ask about leaving it is explained clearly that there is NO backing out and that it is lethal. Jory whines about it when you talk to him in the camp prior to talking to Alistair, he whines and shows himself cowardly in the wilds, and whines if you talk to him while he is in your party. In my opinion he was a coward looking for an easy way for glory and fame for himself and his family and joined the Grey Wardens for all the wrong reasons. After being told several times that there was no backing out he still attempts to desert when the time comes to put up or shut up.



To all those that have the problem that Duncan didn't try to talk or reason with him...why should he? The consequences were laid out prior to the ritual it was explained that there was no backing out, and it was following a plan that already has approval in another "group" (the mages and chantry).

[Akka le Vil]

Couldar wrote...

Another point that people seem not to see is that the harrowing is almost the exact same situation but seems to be overlooked simply because you "met" and "knew" Jory. With the harrowing you either go through it or "die" (tranquility or being hunted by templars) and if you fail you die (templar cuts off your head). Yet no one seems to have a problem with the harrowing but everyone is up in arms about pathetic Jory dieing.

The big difference is that if you don't Join, well, nothing special happens. You just stay a regular guy.
If you don't pass the Harrowing, you can possibly become at any time an abomination and go on a Rampage.
That's quite a bit a difference.

Also, though it's forbidden to describe exactly what is the Harrowing, everyone knows in advance that it's a test you either pass or die.
And again, I don't understand why the Grey Warden shouldn't have the same policy about their Joining. It's not like not revealing it would hamper them in any way.

[The Angry One]

In the end it's not so much the secrecy, it's if you go that far and are accepted into their ranks, there's no going back.

Grey Wardens have a hard enough time finding suitable candidates as it is without allowing people to join and then change their minds.

[ReubenLiew]

I thought people already knew that the Joining was fatal for some, and all others who pass are Grey Wardens. I think people can tell that its the same for the Grey Wardens, pass or die.



Well perhaps not the common people, but then the common people wouldn't know the Harrowing was a pass or die situation either I should think.

[Sarethus]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Couldar wrote...

Another point that people seem not to see is that the harrowing is almost the exact same situation but seems to be overlooked simply because you "met" and "knew" Jory. With the harrowing you either go through it or "die" (tranquility or being hunted by templars) and if you fail you die (templar cuts off your head). Yet no one seems to have a problem with the harrowing but everyone is up in arms about pathetic Jory dieing.

The big difference is that if you don't Join, well, nothing special happens. You just stay a regular guy.
If you don't pass the Harrowing, you can possibly become at any time an abomination and go on a Rampage.
That's quite a bit a difference.

Also, though it's forbidden to describe exactly what is the Harrowing, everyone knows in advance that it's a test you either pass or die.
And again, I don't understand why the Grey Warden shouldn't have the same policy about their Joining. It's not like not revealing it would hamper them in any way.

I think quite a few people know that the Joining is dangerous at least. They might not know the specifics but they do know enough to congratulate the player character upon surviving.

[The Angry One]

Duncan is very open about the fact that the joining is dangerous and lethal, that is definitely not a secret. Being a Grey Warden means sacrifice from day one.

Jory was told all that but he deluded himself with thoughts of glory, acting indignant at the prospect of more "tests".

[Giantmoth]

I can see T-shirts in the future:



Jory Swung first!

[Hatem]

Duncan was not meant to satisfy the opinions of human rights activists, but to lead people against the Blight. With so much responsibility occasional sacrifice is acceptable. Plus, Jory had plenty of opportunities to back out, and yet he didn't.



That being said, I still do not approve of Duncan's decision, not because I feel bad for Jory (he was a whiny weakling) but because Duncan left a child without a father.

[ReubenLiew]

Duncan is not here to impress you.



Sten Approves (+4)

[frokenscheim]

All I can say is I'm glad it wasn't left up to Jory to slay the Archdemon.

[CChocobo]

Duncan did what was necessary! And he's worthy of the title of Grey Warden, and having the beard!

Jory was a fool. I've said it once i'll say it again, he was not willing to sacrifice. Imagine him trying to help you, unite the land and face the blight? We don't have time to calm a grown man down and give him a timeout to consider if he has the courage to do what is necessary. What about facing the high dragon? or looking for the urn of sacred ashes? he'd say "i have a wife and child on the way, i can't take this risk" and run out while you chase him down. He's too much of a risk, can lead to others getting killed. Duncan did the only thing he could do..

/rant

[Saurel]

Gr4ntus wrote...

Duncan was meant to sate the thirsts of Jack Bauer fans..

Modifié par Saurel, 22 novembre 2009 - 09:58 .

[The Angry One]

Duncan isn't anything like Jack Bauer.

Duncan is cool! Oooh yes, I went there.



Jack Bauer fans will just have to wait for Alpha Protocol, plenty of mastubatory material there for boys of all ages.

[Alphram]

Personally I think it was just weak animation.  They should've had Jory look more threatening, as it is Duncan's claim that it was self defense honestly looks silly.

Everyone claims that Jory is a whiny little snot but OMG how many times does Alistair go emo on you during your travels? lol  At least I can accept that Alistair doesn't bat an eye at the killing because I believe he tells you that he went through a similar experience when he was at a Harrowing.  He didn't kill the mage himself, but was present when one was.

As for the whole "The joining must be kept secret", that is just the weakest excuse I can think of.  After all, depending on what happens, Alistair can become king or leave the Wardens altogether, as can your character, so it's not like they'll hunt you down and kill you if you leave, so how many others have?  If you aren't forced to stay a Grey Warden, then killing someone for not going through with it seems horribly inconsistent.

BTW, I know it was done for story reasons, but wouldn't you think they'd have caught on to the whole "initiate freaks out upon seeing the others die" thing?  Wouldn't they start thinking it would be wise to have them drink it one at a time in isolation so this wouldn't happen? Not exactly smart, these Grey Wardens lol.

[KalosCast]

Han shoots first.

[Lianaar]

You can never leave the wardens. No matter what you do, you will be a warden. You might be a king, queen, circus artist, miner, woodcutter, werewolf hunter or whatever, but you'll remain a grey warden. And if you don't abide by the laws they live by, they'll hunt you down. Why do you think -all- grey wardens go to Orzamar to die?

[Nosuchluck]

KalosCast wrote...

Han shoots first.

I watched the new hope yesterday and it's kinda depressing how George lucas decided he needed to "fix" the show.

[DrekorSilverfang]

Hey if Duncan didn't I would have set him on fire and cackled madly while he flailed helplessly on the ground.