384 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

DrekorSilverfang wrote...

Hey if Duncan didn't I would have set him on fire and cackled madly while he flailed helplessly on the ground.

No you wouldn't. This is Dragon Age. You would've used the Evil Dagger of Ominous Music.

[Shady314]

If Duncan hadn't I would have. Man I wish that had been an option. (Before Duncan attacks fireball Jory!)

[Alphram]

Lianaar wrote...

You can never leave the wardens. No matter what you do, you will be a warden. You might be a king, queen, circus artist, miner, woodcutter, werewolf hunter or whatever, but you'll remain a grey warden. And if you don't abide by the laws they live by, they'll hunt you down. Why do you think -all- grey wardens go to Orzamar to die?

So killing Darkspawn has nothing to do with being a Grey Warden, it's all about having that drink.  So I could become initiated, leave and get fat running an inkeep for 20 years, all the while calling myself a Grey Warden.  Neat!

You honestly think if Alistair was king but didn't follow their rules they'd come around and kill him?  So much for all the support they had in Ferelden.  I believe all "active" Grey Wardens go to Orzamar to die since they're going to die anyway at that point.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe anyone said they absolutely had to go out that way, they generally just choose to.

[Lianaar]

I believe if Alistair is king and ignores his calling, then yes, a grey warden will come and try to kill him. I also believe that he won't be alone in that attempt and that Alistair would lose his honour.



I also didn't see Maric sit on his throne and get fat, nor Cailen. And both were kings.

Alistair is not the best choice for a king because he will always remain grey warden. He took the oath, he took the taint. He will keep having the nightmares he talks about, he will keep being haunted by the "music" of the taint. And by the first sign of a new blight he'll need to stand up and leave his kingdom.



But is the mage who tries to harvest the taint's power in order to fight the darkspawn no more a grey warden? Would it make him not hear the darkspawns? Would it make it less of his duty to fight the darkspawns? Will his oath be less of importance? Will he cease being a grey warden just because he didn't kill a darkspawn within a week or month?

[Drider-man]

As I see it, Duncan did the only thing he could do. There's a veil of secrecy on this Joining, despite some indications that some people perhaps know a bit more than they should, and that veil is there for a reason.

The common folk doesn't need to know that the Wardens imbibe Taint, in fact it might cause mass panic if they did know, as others have already mentioned.

The allegiance of the Wardens is first and foremost to the Grey Wardens and they follow their own rules, they're not an order of knights in shining armour, they're a grim, specialised task force with one purpose: Prevail, be ready and able to stop the Blights, whatever the cost.

If it costs the life of one ill-prepared knight its a shame, but they have a higher calling that supercedes all other concerns.

They're much like Loghain in some respects, if the only way to stop the Blight was to topple the kingdom, I'm sure they wouldn't hesitate, however distasteful it would be to assasinate a king and eradicate his heirs.

In short, the end justifies the means and Jory was a liability, he couldn't be allowed to live

[Saurel]

The Angry One wrote...

Duncan isn't anything like Jack Bauer.
Duncan is cool! Oooh yes, I went there.

Jack Bauer fans will just have to wait for Alpha Protocol, plenty of mastubatory material there for boys of all ages.

If the Mass Effect pre-release material was any indication. The Bioware peeps have a  serious <3 -on for Jack Bauer.

I agree with you....

*cough* I hate Jack Bauer *cough* one man saving the world *cough* Keifer Sutherland's ego get a full massage with each season *cough*

Modifié par Saurel, 22 novembre 2009 - 10:49 .

[The Angry One]

Being a Grey Warden isn't incompatible with being King.

As a Grey Warden they must put fighting the Blight first, sure.. but if they don't there soon won't be a kingdom to rule over so in the end it must be done.

As for the calling.. hey, 30 years is a pretty damn good reign for a king in a medieval era thank you very much.

[kormesios]

Duncan's mindset (assuming he's not a psychopath) was that of a pre-modern commander in war time. From his point of view, Jory's death would've been the execution of a deserter. He joined, supposedly understanding that he was joining for life, then changed his mind. It's not like the Wardens would have had a military police corps to guard prisoners detained for insubordination.



Duncan was presumably willing to take him if he was cowed into obedience, but he wasn't going to have a Warden who'd disobey orders turn on his comrades in a panic the first time he got scared.



This does *not* mean I'm siding with Duncan. Or endorsing his leadership style. Certainly Jory was no immediate threat, and Duncan chose to go "(Intimidate)" instead of ("Persuade"), leaving him no choice but death when he failed the check.



On the other hand, it certainly made a point to the other Wardens (ie, my character): This is serious, and it's for life. Definitely my character would have considered backing out too, after seeing Daveth die. But I got the message Duncan sent.

[Bathead]

This is what I'm enjoying about this game. Nothing is cut and dried, situations are not simply black and white, there are many shades of grey here. No simple answers, as it is in real life.

[Drunkencelt]

He knew what would happened if he turned away after a certain point. They were all given the chance to back out. Infact, in many pre-modern societies killing people for refusing their duty was common place.



Cowards die

[CChocobo]

If Jory wasn't killed in the joining, he would have been killed at some point. He most likely would have fled the final battle and you'd hunt him down in a quest just like you hunt down the deserter's for Blackstone Irregulars.

[Trelow-LMG]

Drunkencelt wrote...
Infact, in many pre-modern societies killing people for refusing their duty was common place.

Cowards die

It's a shame that things have changed.

[Dragosunsoar]

Bathead wrote...

This is what I'm enjoying about this game. Nothing is cut and dried, situations are not simply black and white, there are many shades of grey here. No simple answers, as it is in real life.

and thats why i believe there called grey wardens they do what they have to weather it's right or wrong and thats what duncun did you might think he was wrong but to preserve grey warden tradition and secrecy jory had to die and i'm glad he was an annoying fool and i'm sure his wife would agree with me

[marshalleck]

Saurel wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Duncan isn't anything like Jack Bauer.
Duncan is cool! Oooh yes, I went there.

Jack Bauer fans will just have to wait for Alpha Protocol, plenty of mastubatory material there for boys of all ages.

If the Mass Effect pre-release material was any indication. The Bioware peeps have a  serious <3 -on for Jack Bauer.

I agree with you....

*cough* I hate Jack Bauer *cough* one man saving the world *cough* Keifer Sutherland's ego get a full massage with each season *cough*

Hi, you must be new to Bioware games. They've been flirting with these themes since before 24 was even a crude idea in some writer's head.

[Saurel]

marshalleck wrote...


Hi, you must be new to Bioware games. They've been flirting with these themes since before 24 was even a crude idea in some writer's head.

Hi you must have not been paying attention to the many Mass Effect previews in which Jack Bauer is uttered by the Good Doctors at least once <_<


Get off your high horse

http://xbox.joystiq....bauer-in-space/

Modifié par Saurel, 23 novembre 2009 - 02:16 .

[Realmzmaster]

These are the grey wardens. Grey is a mixture of black and white. The wardens are not the goody two shoes or pure evil type. The grey wardens are fighting a war. They do what is neccessary to win. Sometimes that means leaving the moral high ground.



Any army must have discipline and expects all soliders to follow orders and the rules. Failure to do so is insubordination. Jory paid the ultimate price for being insubordinate. Jory got a hint of what was in store when they told them they would have to get darkspawn blood. Maybe an option of backing out then could have been included, but it was not.

[marshalleck]

More importantly, if Jory couldn't face his potential death in a cup of darkspawn blood, how could he be trusted to act appropriately when it came time to take down an Archdemon?

This isn't about a personal grudge or morality or self-defense. It's about Jory's willingness to make the sacrifice all Wardens have to make (be it sooner or later), and he blew it. Big time.

Jory wanted the glory of being a Warden without the sacrifice. That's not how it works.

Modifié par marshalleck, 23 novembre 2009 - 02:29 .

[Raxtoren]

Duncan is a killer - face it.

[II Relics II]

I think by killing Jory it showed the ruthless acts that the Grey Wardens are willing to do in order to protect their order and its members.

[quantumraider]

It doesn't matter who drew first or who attacked first .. the rules of the joining are



1/ drink, or

2/ die.



Simple



There is no point trying to paint that world with our rules, they don't match.

[Obliterati]

At first, I thought Duncan stabbing Jory was jarring, but not particularly notable. But the more people defend it, the more obvious the massive logical wackiness becomes.
-The Grey Wardens do whatever is necessary to win! -  This apparently includes pointlessly executing perfectly capable soldiers hours before a desperate, do-or-die battle. I'll admit, the darkspawn would never see that coming.
-The Grey Wardens cannot allow their secrets to be revealed! - They better sharpen their swords then, as everybody already knows about their dirty laundry. It's actually possible for Alistair marry a woman who knows about the Joining...how's he gonna square that with Weisshaupt?
-Jory chickened out over a blood cocktail! How's he gonna face an Archdemon! - Well, if he doesn't drink, he won't be a Warden...so why would he face an Archdemon? I just watched the dude wax about 50 darkspawn...why couldn't he just, you know, keep doing that? Seems like that could be useful.
-Jory drew first! - Okay seriously, after a thousand years of Grey Wardening, I'm supposed to believe this is the first time someone has freaked out at the Joining? Nobody thought to just make the recruits leave their huge freaking swords in their tents BEFORE they came to the Joining site? Can somebody write the Wardens an FAQ or a troubleshooting manual or something?


And beyond all that, what exactly did Duncan tell everybody after he killed Jory? Did he just walk away, leaving two dead bodies behind?


Camp Guard- Did you just kill that guy?

Duncan- What guy?

Camp Guard- That guy, right there! The one lying in a pool of his own blood!

Duncan- No. He slipped.

Camp Guard- Waitaminute, that's Ser Jory of Redcliffe! that's one of Arl Eamon's knights! I gotta inform my superior about this.

Duncan- *stabs*


That whole scene is a serious orgy of plot-holes.

[marshalleck]

Obliterati wrote...

-Jory chickened out over a blood cocktail! How's he gonna face an Archdemon! - Well, if he doesn't drink, he won't be a Warden...so why would he face an Archdemon? I just watched the dude wax about 50 darkspawn...why couldn't he just, you know, keep doing that? Seems like that could be useful.

Because simply killing darkspawn is not enough. You have to absorb the taint so that the tainted Archdemon soul has nowhere to go when its physical body is destroyed.* Only Wardens can end a Blight, and it's not through superior swordsmanship. This isn't a plot hole.


* trying to remember this just off the top of my head, the discussion with Riordan and Morrigan about the Wardens dying upon slaying an Archdemon. The DA wiki doesn't have specific notes yet but it's in the game.

Modifié par marshalleck, 23 novembre 2009 - 03:08 .

[Obliterati]

marshalleck wrote...

Obliterati wrote...

-Jory chickened out over a blood cocktail! How's he gonna face an Archdemon! - Well, if he doesn't drink, he won't be a Warden...so why would he face an Archdemon? I just watched the dude wax about 50 darkspawn...why couldn't he just, you know, keep doing that? Seems like that could be useful.

Because simply killing darkspawn is not enough. You have to absorb the taint so that the tainted Archdemon soul has nowhere to go when its physical body is destroyed.* Only Wardens can end a Blight, and it's not through superior swordsmanship. This isn't a plot hole.


* trying to remember this just off the top of my head, the discussion with Riordan and Morrigan about the Wardens dying upon slaying an Archdemon. The DA wiki doesn't have specific notes yet but it's in the game.

So...what? Kill everybody that isn't a Warden, because they're useless anyway?

I'm pretty sure that Jory wouldn't just forget how to swing a sword, so it's hard to see how killing him advances the cause of the Wardens.

Grey Wardens do anything to win. Anything. If that means using a guy who balks at drinking darkspawn blood but doesn't seem to have a problem decapitating the darkspawn themselves, then that seems fine to me.

If you've got the wrong tool for the job you don't just break the tool, or throw it away. It seems wildly out of character for Duncan to do something like that.

[marshalleck]

I don't know about that. Seems to me Jory had pretty much snapped, and probably would have deserted even if Duncan had let him go. And would have gone on to spread all kinds of hysteria about Wardens drinking darkspawn blood etc.

I suppose you can try and condemn it based on values of our modern era, but they'd already condemned one deserter to death (and he wasn't actually even deserting) so Jory's fate shouldn't be surprising, especially not being warned and told several times that it was dangerous and there was no turning back. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 23 novembre 2009 - 03:22 .