384 réponses à ce sujet

[The Merciful]

soteria wrote...

Let's say I want to join a gang, and am told that once my initiation begins, I'll be killed if I back out. I go through a few initial tests, and then eventually find out that initiation consists of taking heroin laced with "some other stuff." I've seen another guy take this stuff and die. I lose my nerve and back out, grabbing a baseball bat as I back away--and get plugged in the chest.

Very apt analogue I think, considering the only advantage joining seems to give the Wardens is some sort of Spawn-radar. Useful, but definitely not need for most people fighting the dark spawn.

Another point is letting Jory even attend the Joining speaks ill of Duncan's leadership abilities. The man talks about his wife and child, which from Duncan's point of view should make him too compromised for the single minded purpose of the Wardens. Jory could still have been useful fighting dark spawn in some other capacity, Wardens being all exited about allies and all. Taking someone obviously unfit for Grey Warderdom beyond point of no return is mere waste of resources.

Not that my own character's career "choice" makes sense either. All my disgraced dwarven prince wanted was a lift to the surface... 

Modifié par The Merciful, 23 novembre 2009 - 02:13 .

[The Merciful]

Lianaar wrote...

I believe if Alistair is king and ignores his calling, then yes, a grey warden will come and try to kill him. I also believe that he won't be alone in that attempt and that Alistair would lose his honour.

Teyrn Loghain was *gasp* right! 

[marshalleck]

The Merciful wrote...

soteria wrote...

Let's say I want to join a gang, and am told that once my initiation begins, I'll be killed if I back out. I go through a few initial tests, and then eventually find out that initiation consists of taking heroin laced with "some other stuff." I've seen another guy take this stuff and die. I lose my nerve and back out, grabbing a baseball bat as I back away--and get plugged in the chest.

Very apt analogue I think, considering the only advantage joining seems to give the Wardens is some sort of Spawn-radar. Useful, but definitely not need for most people fighting the dark spawn.

Yet another player who failed to read the dialogue in the game. Darkspawn radar is NOT why Wardens are needed to end Blights. That's just a useful side-effect.

Modifié par marshalleck, 23 novembre 2009 - 02:07 .

[The Merciful]

marshalleck wrote...
Yet another player who failed to read the dialogue in the game. Darkspawn radar is NOT why Wardens are needed to end Blights. That's just a useful side-effect.

Oh really? And what would that be? And more specifically, what the joining would have to do with it?

[EricHVela]

The Joining has another effect beyond "Spawn-radar", one that is absolutely essential to defeating the blight. There is no other way. You must get near the end of the game to find out what this is, though.

It was sad regarding Jory, but it was necessary. Necessary isn't always nice. In the settings of the game, those who gave in to fear of the blight were a risk to the cause for many reasons (which is explained through the course of the game). Given the importance of the Grey Wardens, such a risk becomes far too great. There is nothing in the real world that could compare, so there are no possible analogies we can make.

Jory's actions are not unexpected, but his actions doomed him. Sure. He made a decision without knowing the outcome, but all decisions come with a consequence, good or bad, expected or not.

Let's not forget that one is supposed to cut all ties to their families, including Jory's. This is something they already know before the Joining.

Jory doomed himself. The better choice if he wanted to protect his family was to go through with the Joining.

Jory does not deserve total condemnation, but Duncan should be absolved of all wrong in his actions.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 23 novembre 2009 - 02:17 .

[Herr Uhl]

The Merciful wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Yet another player who failed to read the dialogue in the game. Darkspawn radar is NOT why Wardens are needed to end Blights. That's just a useful side-effect.

Oh really? And what would that be? And more specifically, what the joining would have to do with it?

Has something to do with killing an archdemon...

[EricHVela]

The Merciful wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Yet another player who failed to read the dialogue in the game. Darkspawn radar is NOT why Wardens are needed to end Blights. That's just a useful side-effect.

Oh really? And what would that be? And more specifically, what the joining would have to do with it?

Get to the end of the game. You'll find out. The Joining has everything to do with ending a blight. Nobody else can do it.

[GmanFresh]

these are different circumstances.

a) he is a grey warden.. he does what he likes

the world is at stake. either your down or your out

[The Merciful]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Get to the end of the game. You'll find out. The Joining has everything to do with ending a blight. Nobody else can do it.

For which Jory was clearly unsuitable for, so why even take him to the Joining, armed of all things, and get the rather predictable result. Duncan sucks, plain and simple.

And why Arch demon/Wardens connection thing even has been hidden to the end of the game. All it achieves is lot of things not making much sense in the mean time.

Modifié par The Merciful, 23 novembre 2009 - 02:25 .

[th3warr1or]

I'm pretty sure that it would be possible(and might have happened in the past) where a recruit kills a senior warden(just because he's senior doesn't mean he's any better a fighter), so Duncan was taking no chances.

[Keeoto]

Yes some of the more educated people in Thedas have some knowledge of the Grey Warden's initiation ritual, as long as the common folk who in general regard the wardens as great heroes are oblivious to the fact that those who they revere are themselves half-darkspawn, then it's fine.

Otherwise, if the general population where aware of this fact, many of them would think twice about their prestige, the privileges that many high courts grant them or they might even hunt down the Grey Wardens just because of their tainted blood.

Grey Wardens will do anything to stop a blight, there is even mention on one of the origins that they once burned down an entire village to slow down the advancing darkspawn. The end justify the means for them, leaving a completely panicked recruit to escape, and risk him telling his wife, and everyone around about the fact that Grey Wardens themselves are half darkspawn and the consequences that would entail is something that Duncan doesn't want to deal with, especially during a Blight.

Modifié par Keeoto, 23 novembre 2009 - 02:31 .

[The Merciful]

th3warr1or wrote...

I'm pretty sure that it would be possible(and might have happened in the past) where a recruit kills a senior warden(just because he's senior doesn't mean he's any better a fighter), so Duncan was taking no chances.

Duncan allowed the recruits bring weapons, didn't he.

[Keeoto]

Obliterati wrote...
Except that the Joining being a death sentence in apparently common knowledge, or at least, not particularly secret.

Anora (who is not, as far as I know, a Warden) talks at length about many of the dangerous aspects of the Joining, and nobody bats an eye.

They know it's dangerous, Jory knew it was dangerous also. They don't know it entails drinking darkspawn blood and becoming half-darkspawn, just like Jory did not know that... now which of these two facts made Jory panic? The dangerous part (which he already knew about and was pumped to go thru with) or the fact that he's going to become what many would think of as a "monster" if he managed to survive?

Modifié par Keeoto, 23 novembre 2009 - 02:34 .

[The Merciful]

Keeoto wrote...

Otherwise, if the general population where aware of this fact, many of them would think twice about their prestige, the privileges that many high courts grant them or they might even hunt down the Grey Wardens just because of their tainted blood.

Another often repeated claim. I don't buy it. Its the rumors and half-truths that start progroms and witch hunts, and it's secrecy that breeds rumors in the first place. The Wards would be a whole lot more believable if they were more like a Legion of the Dead -deal, but I guess that's dwarves for you - just plain better than you or anyone else. 

Modifié par The Merciful, 23 novembre 2009 - 02:39 .

[bjdbwea]

Okay, people justify the murder because it was necessary to keep the secret. Fine. But why not wait for the battle at least? Need every able man there, no? Maybe Jory even dies, problem solved, no explanations to his family needed. Or murder him after the fight and just pretend he died in combat.

[Keeoto]

The Merciful wrote...
Another often repeated claim. I don't buy it. Its the rumors and half-truths that start progroms and witch hunts, and it's secrecy that breeds rumors in the first place. The Wards would be a whole lot more believable if they were more like a Legion of the Dead -deal, but I guess that's dwarves for you - just plain better than you or anyone else. 

There's nothing more to the Legion of the Dead than dwarves from any walk of life that give up their caste and life to dedicate themselves entirely to fighting the darkspawn to the death on the Deep Roads. There's not much more to them and nothing that people would panic about.

The Grey Wardens themselves become half darkspawn. Rumors and witch hunts will always happen, doesn't matter if they come out and tell the world about their darkspawn blood drinking hijinks, it would just be more fuel to the rumor mill and more reasoning for a witch hunt.

How easy would it have been for Loghain to brand the Grey Wardens as psychotic killers who do the darkspawn's bidding and revel in  drinking blood to try and satisfy their insatiable bloodlust, if it was common knowledge to everyone in Ferelden that they are half-darkspawn?

Modifié par Keeoto, 23 novembre 2009 - 02:58 .

[RunCDFirst]

bjdbwea wrote...

Okay, people justify the murder because it was necessary to keep the secret. Fine. But why not wait for the battle at least? Need every able man there, no? Maybe Jory even dies, problem solved, no explanations to his family needed. Or murder him after the fight and just pretend he died in combat.

Probably because he'd just run away from the battle and not fight at all.

[EricHVela]

The Merciful wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

Get to the end of the game. You'll find out. The Joining has everything to do with ending a blight. Nobody else can do it.

For which Jory was clearly unsuitable for, so why even take him to the Joining, armed of all things, and get the rather predictable result. Duncan sucks, plain and simple.

And why Arch demon/Wardens connection thing even has been hidden to the end of the game. All it achieves is lot of things not making much sense in the mean time.

It is explained why they only find out near the end.

How much of the game have you actually played?

Jory didn't display any issues until he was faced with the Joining. In fact, he seemed eager to participate until he actually saw the Joining. How was Duncan to know before then?

If you intend to plainly simplify things so much, you will miss a lot of the essence of the story. Plain and simple.

Your statements say that you just want to hate Duncan. Go right on ahead. Nobody can argue against someone who is not willing to listen.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 23 novembre 2009 - 03:06 .

[Dark83]

You know, this time through I questioned Duncan on everything. You can see the more "utterly uncompromising hard ass" side of him as Dalish, if you press him, though he quickly apologizes and is nice again. Before the joining, he made it quite clear that we have no choice - we are not volunteers. After the joining, his line is that he had no choice because Jory drew his weapon. It seems possible, for the "why didn't he force it on him?" crowd, that if Jory hadn't drawn his weapon he may well have.



Duncan advances on Jory with the cup first.

[morrisbrown]

I don't dislike Duncan (I think he's Hardcore, if nothing else), but one thing that's kind of interesting/funny is that if he were a PC in KOTOR, he'd pretty much be full-on Dark Side. Really, think about the sort of dialogue choices and actions that gave you Dark Side points in KOTOR, then objectively look at Duncan. He's not a good guy, even by Bioware's own standards.



e.g. In the human noble origin, he basically tells your father that he's only going to save you if he's allowed to make you a Grey Warden. He didn't do it out of any sense of honor or kindness, he did it soley as an opportunity to snag another recruit. If your father had said no, he would have likely left you there to die with the rest of your family.



That being said, anyone who has the gonads to jump on top of an ogre's chest and stab it to death gets mad props in my book.

[EricHVela]

Dark83 wrote...

You know, this time through I questioned Duncan on everything. You can see the more "utterly uncompromising hard ass" side of him as Dalish, if you press him, though he quickly apologizes and is nice again. Before the joining, he made it quite clear that we have no choice - we are not volunteers. After the joining, his line is that he had no choice because Jory drew his weapon. It seems possible, for the "why didn't he force it on him?" crowd, that if Jory hadn't drawn his weapon he may well have.

Duncan advances on Jory with the cup first.

Well... It seems the origins character is conscripted one way or another.. (I'd say that the Dalish and Dwarven Noble are shaky on the conscript part of it.) I believe Daveth was conscripted, though I'm not sure. I see nothing to suggest that Jory was conscripted. He talks like he was invited and like he accepted (knowing he would cut all ties to his family and not seek glory over the duty of sacrifice).

[SonvarTheMighty]

@OP

It's a secret ritual and I don't recall anyone outside the Grey Wardens talking to me about drinking darkspawn blood. I think Flemeth and Morrigan had ideas or knew exactly what occurred but that's it. Jory had plenty of time to leave and even before the joining was told it could be lethal. I have no sympathy for him as he waited to long to decide it wasn't worth it and I for one would not want someone who was afraid of dying so much. Duncan like every Grey Warden and the theme I've gotten out of the game is that you do whatever is necessary.



I'd also like to note that Jory pulled out his weapon first and does make the first swing. Regardless of Self Defense or not killing another person is murder and the PC over the course of the game does murder other people who may or may not have deserved it.

[Xyan]

SonvarTheMighty wrote...

@OP
It's a secret ritual and I don't recall anyone outside the Grey Wardens talking to me about drinking darkspawn blood. I think Flemeth and Morrigan had ideas or knew exactly what occurred but that's it. Jory had plenty of time to leave and even before the joining was told it could be lethal. I have no sympathy for him as he waited to long to decide it wasn't worth it and I for one would not want someone who was afraid of dying so much. Duncan like every Grey Warden and the theme I've gotten out of the game is that you do whatever is necessary.

Jory believed that the test was to go into the wilds, kill some darkspawns and retrieve the documents. So did my PC on the first run. I don't think the drinking poison part was explicit anywhere.

I think the fear of death had anything to do with it. Think of what Sten would say. "There are darkspawns waiting to be killed and you prefer to play russian rouette?"

It does not link up from the point of view of a new recruit who does not yet have all the information. You cannot blame them for thinking that maybe Duncan is not all there in the head or worst.. a spy for the archdemon.. gasp..

I'd also like to note that Jory pulled out his weapon first and does make the first swing. Regardless of Self Defense or not killing another person is murder and the PC over the course of the game does murder other people who may or may not have deserved it.

What I see is Jory parrying Duncan's dagger away. I don't consider that the first swing. And he was backing away while Duncan was advancing. That much is clear. If you are pushed to the wall, your only escape is to push the aggressor aside so that you may run. That is Jory's position. The argument of him making the first swing does not justify his murder.

[Zenthar Aseth]

Gr4ntus wrote...

Duncan was not meant to satisfy the opinions of human rights activists, but to lead people against the Blight. With so much responsibility occasional sacrifice is acceptable. Plus, Jory had plenty of opportunities to back out, and yet he didn't.

That being said, I still do not approve of Duncan's decision, not because I feel bad for Jory (he was a whiny weakling) but because Duncan left a child without a father.

JORY left a child without a father. He KNEW FULL WELL that when you join the Wardens, you abandon your family etc.. even if he DID become a full Grey Warden, he would have left a child without a father..

so it was Jory, not Duncan.

[Dark83]

morrisbrown wrote...

I don't dislike Duncan (I think he's Hardcore, if nothing else), but one thing that's kind of interesting/funny is that if he were a PC in KOTOR, he'd pretty much be full-on Dark Side.

No no, the Duct Tape morality of Star Wars doesn't work here. Perhaps a better analogy would be Closed Fist?