384 réponses à ce sujet

[orpheus333]

I believe that during the joining all members are tied into the ritual. After all Duncan does require magi aid in performing it. Perhaps there is a further reason why Duncan had to slaughter Jory a reason why Alistair didn't seem to care or be taken a back by what Duncan did. Which seems a little out of place for him.



I don;t know its an interesting dilemma.

[Zenthar Aseth]

Raxtoren wrote...

Duncan is a killer - face it.

No one is saying he isn't a killer. Obviously he is. The PC is. Everyone in the PC's party are..

[Zoe Dedweth]

So what if he was murdered ? Seriously - Duncan's a douche. jory's a Douche. Hell your character 9/10 can be a douche. It doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is stopping the blight. Hell If I had to kill Jory and his wife and his baby I would. That means thousands of other families will survive. It's that simple. Hell - Duncan can kill babies for giggles as long as it stops the blight. Afterwards they would give him a medal before hushing the whole thing up again.

[Xyan]

And yet we are not too sure that the blight is evil and that humanity is good...

[SonvarTheMighty]

Xyan wrote...

I'd also like to note that Jory pulled out his weapon first and does make the first swing. Regardless of Self Defense or not killing another person is murder and the PC over the course of the game does murder other people who may or may not have deserved it.

What I see is Jory parrying Duncan's dagger away. I don't consider that the first swing. And he was backing away while Duncan was advancing. That much is clear. If you are pushed to the wall, your only escape is to push the aggressor aside so that you may run. That is Jory's position. The argument of him making the first swing does not justify his murder.

All I'm saying is that I've watched this a few times and Jory does take the first swing.   Either way I don't either person can really justify self-defense.   Jory was murdered I'd agree but if Jory had killed Duncan in that skirmish I would say that's murder just as much.

Regardless, Jory got what was coming to him because either he drinks and dies which what I suspect would happen or Duncan ends it.    Considering the nature of the Grey Wardens there wasn't an option to just back out at that point.    If you go through all the dialogue options Duncan makes it clear that the Joining ritual can be fatal and this is after you went out into the Wilds.    Jory could have left then but didn't so his life was forfeit to become a Grey Warden or die there was no other option.   

[Elizire]

"Not every legend is pure." It says so right in the ads for the game. Its even stated in the name: Grey Wardens. This is a group dedicated to fighting the Blight and will do whatever is necessary.



Jory was murdered to protect the secret of the Joining. Whether anyone likes it or not.

[Unbroken Lineage]

SonvarTheMighty wrote...
Regardless, Jory got what was coming to him because either he drinks and dies which what I suspect would happen or Duncan ends it.    Considering the nature of the Grey Wardens there wasn't an option to just back out at that point.    If you go through all the dialogue options Duncan makes it clear that the Joining ritual can be fatal and this is after you went out into the Wilds.    Jory could have left then but didn't so his life was forfeit to become a Grey Warden or die there was no other option.   

Indeed.  This.  Full stop.  /endthread

[SonvarTheMighty]

andyr1986 wrote...

I believe that during the joining all members are tied into the ritual. After all Duncan does require magi aid in performing it. Perhaps there is a further reason why Duncan had to slaughter Jory a reason why Alistair didn't seem to care or be taken a back by what Duncan did. Which seems a little out of place for him.

I don;t know its an interesting dilemma.

Alistair it's easy to explain as he's already seen what occurred and what the options are going through the ritual.    He also sees Duncan as his first real father figure so I guarantee you that he would follow Duncan's lead on anything whether he agrees or not. 

[Wissenschaft]

Xyan wrote...

And yet we are not too sure that the blight is evil and that humanity is good...

Grey Wardens don't care about whether Humanity is worth saving or if they are good or any another non-sense. All that matters is victory!

[Dark83]

Xyan wrote...

And yet we are not too sure that the blight is evil and that humanity is good...

Of course the Blight isn't evil, the Maker sent those mages back to kill everybody and bring them back into His Fold, duh.

[Tsaritsyn]

I think the understanding is widespread (in-game) that joining the Wardens is basically a death sentence.  Wardens don't live happily ever after and die of old age, in bed surrounded by loved ones.  If they last long enough to feel their tainted blood getting the best of them, the most they can hope for is to go to their ends against as many darkspawn as possible on the Deep Roads.  The most you can hope for is a good death, one way or another.

As an alternative to a death sentence of another kind, it's pretty appealing.  You get a degree of respect.  If you survive the ritual you gain immunity to the poisonous blood of the darkspawn, which I seem to remember is supposed to be inevitably fatal to anyone that's not a Warden anyway (though it doesn't seem to come up much once you're past Ostagar), so really if you're committed to fighting them joining the Wardens is your best option, if you can clear the somewhat high barrier to entry.

I'm not sure what makes a knight with a family volunteer for the Wardens - you're presumably landed, you are a "have" in a system with some pretty nice perks for the "haves" over the "have nots," and you'll certainly get your chance to earn glory in battle in a place as violent as Ferelden is anyway.  Unless Jory was trying to weasel his way out of child support payments or something, I really don't see why he was there in the first place.

[ThrakenSal]

Jory was told from the start there was no turning back, He accepted his fate when he joined, period. Just because he decided later that he wasn't up to the challenge and turned coward doesn't make Duncan a murderer, it makes him committed. Jory was the cause of his own death, Duncan was just his tool for suicide.

[durasteel]

Xyan wrote...

And yet we are not too sure that the blight is evil and that humanity is good...

Exactly the point... we don't care about good and evil when we're faced with extermination.  Neither living beings nor sentient darkspawn are likely to relent in their crusade to suvive because of some sense that their side might not hold the upper hand in a moral sense.

When you accept the invitation to join the Grey Wardens, or you are conscripted, there are only two possible outcomes: either you become a Grey Warden, or you die.  To a Grey Warden with the tenure of Duncan, one who hears the whispers of the Archdemon in his sleep and feels the first hint of the Calling, it probably feels as if he did Jory a favor.  When you drink from the cup, you're as good as dead - the only question is whether you die in a minute or in 30 years, or somewhere in between.

Modifié par durasteel, 23 novembre 2009 - 05:15 .

[Findarin]

Look, Duncan was under order to kill maric at one point if it was necessary to protect the secrets of the wardens. Did you specifically expect him to bat an eye about killing a lowly recruit?



You want to put the social connotation that it was murder go ahead. However, I don't think any less of Duncan for doing what had to be done.



It wasn't self defense in the literal sense, but it was in defense of the order and its secrets.

[Elwoodw]

If Duncan murdered Jory then he also murdered Daveth.

[EricHVela]

This situation is complex with repercussions that spread far beyond the incident. Some people seem to stop at Jory's family, but not work backwards to what led to the incident or work forward beyond Jory's family.

Simplifying this situation causes one to see it in black-and-white. This game exists somewhere in the grey (wardens) most of the time. Some "nice" things the character can do may come back to bite them.

(Then, you're faced with another moral choice when you play through the next time... knowing what will become of the choice... something none of us get to have in real life. It becomes a kind of "what if you knew what Hitler would do and could stop him before he did anything only by killing him as a baby" situation. Talk about a total mind $*#@.)

[Rugaru]

For that matter Elwoodw, then he effectively murdered you and Alistair and any other warden he recruited...

[II Relics II]

I am actually pretty glad that Duncan killed Jory, the whole korcari wilds quest he was whining and about to flee from the darkspawn. Would you want to fight beside someone who may flee and screw you over when you needed him/her most?



I know I wouldn't

[Obliterati]

II Relics II wrote...

I am actually pretty glad that Duncan killed Jory, the whole korcari wilds quest he was whining and about to flee from the darkspawn. Would you want to fight beside someone who may flee and screw you over when you needed him/her most?

I know I wouldn't

*cough cough* Alistair *cough cough*

[orpheus333]

The way i see it though and other people, and duncan as well it seems is that not taking the blood means he has already failed the joining. It seems that the joining works on the strength of the soul within the mortal vessel. As a soul is attatched to the fade and the 'maker' (who i believe is just a regular if powerful spirit) and also the old gods are also just a matter of conenction to the fade. The soul must be strong. Jory's reaction, for duncan at least, was an indication of his souls lack of power. I don't believe necessarily that the joining is the only thing that enables an old gods soul to be mitigated in this way. It is the strength of the soul in the grey warden.

[ItsToofy]

OooooooooooK, this is obviously getting to be silly.



-Duncan advances with "a cup"

-Jory backs away and pulls out sword

-Noticing the hostile intent of PULLING OUT A WEAPON, Duncan also pulls out a dagger

-Jory swings

-Duncan parries and runs Jory through for attacking him.



Soooooo why are people still confused?



Secondly, why WOULDN'T the Grey Wardens want their secrets kept? If ALL of Ferelden found out the Grey Wardens drink darkspawn blood....let me emphasise, THEY DRINK DARKSPAWN BLOOD, as part of the rituatl to join the wardens, the people of Fereldn and any nobles that weren't in the know would be calling for every Grey Warden's head on a pike for being a darkspawn drinking cult. Jesus people, it's not hard to figure out why they want to keep it a secret, because if that little detail were to slip out to the public, who would want to trust the Grey Wardens who are essentialy now have the darkspawn inside them? And if there were some crusade to wipe out the "darkspawn blood drinking grey wardens", who would be left to destroy the archdemon?



What would happen if they let Jory escape? Jory goes back to Redcliffe, tells his wife that he was supposed to drink darkspawn blood, he and his wife tell other people who ask what became of him when he went to join the Grey Wardens, the information keeps cascading and all of a sudden you have all of Redcliffe ready to kill any Grey Warden as being part of the "Darkspawn threat".



All it takes is one person to start a domino effect, remember that.



This isn't hard to piece together folks, just wait til later when you find out that it isn't just the darkspawn blood you drink, but it's actualy the blood of the archdemon as well, or did you not get that far? oh wouldn't THAT be wonderful if people in Ferelden knew that you drank the blood of the archdemon too, I'm sure the common folk wouldn't mind that one bit, huh?



Duncan was preserving the secrets of the order from getting out to the common man, because if everyone knew, the order would be threatened and the Grey Wardens hunted, and the world would be destroyed....is that worth Jory's life? I'd say it was worth 10 Jory's lives.

[Dark83]

Even if they weren't hunted, which I doubt would happen, they certainly wouldn't get many more recruits, and would probably lose the right of conscription. The world is screwed in the next Blight.

[Elwoodw]

Well, I'm glad Jory didn't run Alistair   Duncan through. Then the story might have come out much, much different.

Modifié par Elwoodw, 23 novembre 2009 - 08:23 .

[simpatikool]

I took it that once you were at the joing ritual, "There is no turning back"



This is a fantasy setting. Thank god there is no department of justice screwing it all up.

[Ulicus]

Jory knew that the ritual could kill him and was told that, should he choose to undergo it, there would be no turning back. Once he knew this, he still agreed to take part.

Funny how didn't care about his wife and child at that point, isn't it?

Let's not obfuscate things, here, Jory didn't refuse the cup for their sake. Let's not pretend that he was some family man. He refused, quite simply, because "there is no honour in this". That was all he cared about.

I certainly didn't shed any tears.