384 réponses à ce sujet

[JamesX]

If you talked to Ducan about having 2nd thoughts, he said something about (loosely quoted) "Gray Warden is not a democracy, you whether here willingly or conscribed no longer have any options to back out."

Jory tried to back out, death is the only way out.

[Kurupt87]

i didnt particularly like this scene, it just didnt seem to be done well enough.

ok i get that jory has found out about the specifics of the joining ritual (minus the archdemon blood i think???) so he HAS to join or die as the saying goes, i was ok with that. but...duncan or alistair didnt even try to convince him, just jory goes noooo like a sissy and draws his sword defensively. it just seems to me that one of them could have tried convincing him a bit more, jory obv has a strong sense of duty(hes a knight)its just his cowardice of the taint/poison/death that he has to overcome, and the right word or two to him there coulda done the trick i think, only if hes adamant or starts swingin does he need to get ended imo.

[CChocobo]

There was no time to convince. A war is coming, and if one man decides to be a coward and a deserter he needs to be shot, or well in this case cut down. He would have put the party at risk. Alistair and Duncan have no time to try and calm down a grown man..

[Lianaar]

Duncen murdered Jory. You don't need to like Duncan. Fact is that Alistair might disapprove if you talk badly of Duncan, but you CAN say all the time: I am forced to do this. I dislike it. I don't think highly of Duncan etc.



You might like him just because he did it. He certainly killed him. The justification is double edged. Duncan, as DA isn't black and white. That is why he is credible. He is grey. He makes mistakes and has a personality. And you as PC or as person can decide wether you can sympathise with his legitimation or totally refuse it. And thus he becomes a villain, a hero, or just a human with too much power in your eyes.

[Rugaru]

Why though should anyone try to reason with him? Would you rather Duncan went...oh come on Jory you know you want to drink the cool-aide please drink the cool-aide purty please with cherries on top...



He went there with the knowledge that his life was on the line, if he balks at the ritual why wouldn't he balk at an archdemon? and if he balked at the archdemon would you want to spend 20 minutes trying to convince him to kill it?...

[Staggart]

yea he could have given him the option... you either drink this or die...

[Ulicus]

He wasn't murdered, he was executed for desertion. Was it a "good" act on Duncan's part? No, but - contextually - it was the right one.

[Bali_of_Terenas]

I think that scene was key to setting the feel for the Grey Wardens. It would be very easy to slot them in as classic paladin types but they aren't and this scene really shows that well. I believe it's Duncan who states that the Wardens were founded to defeat the Blight by any means necessary. The player (and we can assume the other recruits) are given many warnings prior to signing up and with all the secrecy the Joining certainly has a feel of locking you in.



As for trying to talk Jory down a bit my recollection is that they start to do that but as soon as he drew his sword talking time was over.

[DeriusE]

People seem to focus on the wrong part of the need for secrecy. Based on Anora's comments towards the end, it is fairly apparent that people do know that the Joining can be lethal.

The point isn't the lethality to me - the point of secrecy is that if it got out that to become a Grey Warden you must drink Darkspawn blood, THAT would be bad... to put it lightly. That is what needs to be kept secret - and the fact that apparently it is somewhat known that the Joining can result in death, it puts Jory in even a worse position.

Jory wasn't even really conscripted - HE tried to impress DUNCAN to become a Grey Warden. This was what he wanted. He knew the potential consequences, he just didn't have the balls to follow through after watching Daveth die. It is stated over and over there is no turning back.

The Grey Wardens are called "GREY" Wardens for a reason. They are not white knights. They aren't heroes. They are not perhaps what the world would want, but what it needs, like it or not. Jory is pretty much, in this scenario, deserting.

Why is this scene so terrible, and I haven't seen anyone even bat an eye at the man imprisoned in a cage and likely to be hung or beheaded in an execution for deserting?

You can't look at this through the eyes of the modern world and expect to see it the same as anyone else in Ferelden.

Was what Duncan did morally correct? No. Did he enjoy having to do it? It appears quite obvious to me that he didn't. But he did what he had to do, unlike Jory, who when it came down to the nitty gritty time, was unable to follow through with what he had to do.

Modifié par DeriusE, 23 novembre 2009 - 09:43 .

[Fishy]

Xyan wrote...

And yet we are not too sure that the blight is evil and that humanity is good...

It's not the fact that the blight's evil or not.It's the blight want to destroy/Kill everything . Kinda like the Orc in Lord of the ring.You have to stop it no matter what or life will dissapear.

But Allistair during that scene seemed out of character.Has the guy that cry like a breats when you kill cannor or the mother .. and complain about every hard descision you take.. He seemed quite calm.

I don't get how he respect so much Duncan .. Because Duncan don't seem to be an Angel either.
Allistair ****** me off .. I do everything to ****** him off.


Sten - Why do you fight ?
Me - Because i have to do it
Sten - Exactly. There's nothing more to add.

Allistair - Save the village!
Me - i have no time for this
Allistair - YOu'RE EVIL!
Me - I'm trying to save the world , not a frigging village

THan allistair cry

annoying turd.

[SonvarTheMighty]

imported_beer wrote...

It *is* unfair. No one tells them you could die from the ritual until it is too late. No one tells them you have only a few years to live. The entire Grey Warden mythos is shrouded in a kind of glamorous mystery. Everyone seems to want to join them (as shown in the Noble origin) until they discover what it is all about and by then it is too late. You don't really make an *informed* choice. But hey.
 

If you go through dialogue options with Duncan after coming back from the Wilds you are told the ritual can be fatal and that's with Jory standing there. 

[orpheus333]

Suprez30 wrote...

Xyan wrote...

And yet we are not too sure that the blight is evil and that humanity is good...

It's not the fact that the blight's evil or not.It's the blight want to destroy/Kill everything . Kinda like the Orc in Lord of the ring.You have to stop it no matter what or life will dissapear.

But Allistair during that scene seemed out of character.Has the guy that cry like a breats when you kill cannor or the mother .. and complain about every hard descision you take.. He seemed quite calm.

I don't get how he respect so much Duncan .. Because Duncan don't seem to be an Angel either.
Allistair ****** me off .. I do everything to ****** him off.


Sten - Why do you fight ?
Me - Because i have to do it
Sten - Exactly. There's nothing more to add.

Allistair - Save the village!
Me - i have no time for this
Allistair - YOu'RE EVIL!
Me - I'm trying to save the world , not a frigging village

THan allistair cry

annoying turd.

This is my point Alistair is bond to duty and honour the same as Sten. (Even if Ailstair doesn't realise it most of the time, he is controlled by his emotions and duty); Surely even his feelings for Duncan as a father figure. His feelings for his Grey Warden brothers would not make him so cold as to even converse with you about Jory.

[Colloquiallism]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Except that Jory swung first.

Truth.

[likeorasgod]

Dragosunsoar wrote...

i didn't care for a knight he was a coward

Every time you talk to him before you go out in the woods to get the blood and such, he comes off as very much such.  I still suprised Duncan even thought about recruiting him.  The other dude I can see.  LOL is it me or does it seem the Wardens recruit the misfits and rifraf?

[orpheus333]

It is funny that we have the Han shot first scenario in DA. Perhaps intentional?

[Valmy]

(Yeah, I'm taking this a bit too seriously, but I was annoyed about that scene, also about everyone else, including Alistair, not caring in the least.)

It is Grey Warden law to execute any who chicken out of The Joining.  Traditions must be respected.

But in any case Karma got Duncan no?

[RunCDFirst]

imported_beer wrote...

It *is* unfair. No one tells them you could die from the ritual until it is too late. No one tells them you have only a few years to live. The entire Grey Warden mythos is shrouded in a kind of glamorous mystery. Everyone seems to want to join them (as shown in the Noble origin) until they discover what it is all about and by then it is too late. You don't really make an *informed* choice. But hey.

To be fair, the people only view the Grey Warden mythos in a glamorous mythos because they choose to. Wynne tells a story of how the Grey Wardens defend the people against the Blight, sacrificing themselves so that other's don't have to die. It is up to the individual listening to these stories to form an opinion as to whether they view this as some great and noble purpose or a suicidal last light of defence like the Legion of the Dead. 

Also, this is an organization that has the Right to Conscription. Often, people joining the Grey Wardens don't even have a choice in the matter, whether it's informed or not. The same Human Noble Origin gives the player quite a strong motivation to not join the Wardens, but they are forced to regardless. And, while Duncan may be a good guy, he's also pretty shady. The way he recruits the Human Noble is... questionable at best.

[TuringPoint]

Jory swung when Duncan approached him with an unsheathed knife. I just wanted to point that out.



I think the bigger reason Duncan did that was to make sure the joining continued. If he had let Jory go, at that point, it would've been, "hey, you're not actually a warden! I helped you all for charity, hoping you might join us!" which he didn't. It was seen as desertion to deny the ritual. Slightly barbaric, but that's Duncan and the Grey Wardens, in fact the whole of Fereldan. There's no judicial system like ours in Fereldan.

[starwind99]

Han shot first.

[Sarethus]

Suprez30 wrote...

Xyan wrote...

And yet we are not too sure that the blight is evil and that humanity is good...

It's not the fact that the blight's evil or not.It's the blight want to destroy/Kill everything . Kinda like the Orc in Lord of the ring.You have to stop it no matter what or life will dissapear.

But Allistair during that scene seemed out of character.Has the guy that cry like a breats when you kill cannor or the mother .. and complain about every hard descision you take.. He seemed quite calm.

I don't get how he respect so much Duncan .. Because Duncan don't seem to be an Angel either.
Allistair ****** me off .. I do everything to ****** him off.


Sten - Why do you fight ?
Me - Because i have to do it
Sten - Exactly. There's nothing more to add.

Allistair - Save the village!
Me - i have no time for this
Allistair - YOu'RE EVIL!
Me - I'm trying to save the world , not a frigging village

THan allistair cry

annoying turd.

There's a difference between accepting necessary casualities & not accepting casualties when a little bit of extra effort could prevent them. 

[EricHVela]

Jory was a pawn of a plot device. It seems to have worked given the responses here. The plot device invoked horror, dismay, hate, disgust, approval, acceptance, regret, praise, doubt and all the thoughts that it was supposed to all wrapped up in a neat package depending on the reader.

BRAVO BIOWARE!

[barrel_LOL]

I’ve been in the joining business for twenty something years now, scouting for and grooming potential hero’s; it’s not easy. In fact It’s pretty damn hard work (minus the pretty.)

I’ll cut straight down to the chase, Jorry; i’m not going to lie to you; I’m in desperate, desperate need of hero’s.

...

 i need a hero, Jorry.

i'm holding out for a hero til' the end of the night; he's gotta be strong, and he's gotta be fast -- and by Andraste's arse-chaps he's gotta be fresh for the fight!!

i need a hero, Jorry!

he's gotta be sure, and it's gotta be soon -- and he's.. not you; Jorry, you're fired.

/STAB!

Modifié par barrel_LOL, 23 novembre 2009 - 11:06 .

[skiwolf7]

I don't think Duncan was a very good recruiter. It was obvious to anyone with half a brain that Jory wouldn't make a good grey warden. My guess is that Jory was invited to serve as the guy that dies in hopes that Daveth and the PC would make it through. Pretty cold, but that seems like Duncan.

[Drake Sigar]

I keep hearing "Jory struck first", but only when Duncan drew a long knife and approached him. Jory was clearly trying to get as far away from the cup as possible. It seems to me that if Duncan just gave the guy a minute to think, reminded him of his duty and the law (Warden conscription rights), Jory might have come to his senses.