194 réponses à ce sujet

[onelifecrisis]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Um, yeah. People who buy the game, or MAY buy the game, SHOULD have some say in the final product.

Otherwise less people buy the game. Pretty simple concept. Don't create a product that people want, and people don't buy it.

Problem is that one can not speak for all and neither can 50 speak for a thousand. One might want something while the others might want something else entirely. In the end, the idea of devs listening to fans is nice but can only go so far as devs try to juggle the demands of thousands and the vocal minority. 

Then shut down the forum.

If this place isn't considered a representative sample and/or useful feedback for Bioware to consider, then what's the point of having it?

To give them something to point and laugh at on their lunch break.

[Il Divo]

InvincibleHero wrote...


I just have one request to make the death if it comes special and make it have meaning in the story. I want my Shepard to be able to talk about it with others and remember good times with the former squadmate or even NPC that was important to the story. I hope we are given a chance to memorialize them in some way. Maybe the council granting posthumus honors that Shepard attends at the end. The death of people Shepard knows can have a profound impact on the game if people would let BW work their magic. BW make ME3 memorable.

Agreed.

[DiebytheSword]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

It's only a problem when certain pinheads come storming in and say my tastes are stupid.

My tastes are stupid!

...wait, I think I screwed this joke up somewhere.

+1 to you sir.

[BeefoTheBold]

onelifecrisis wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Um, yeah. People who buy the game, or MAY buy the game, SHOULD have some say in the final product.

Otherwise less people buy the game. Pretty simple concept. Don't create a product that people want, and people don't buy it.

Problem is that one can not speak for all and neither can 50 speak for a thousand. One might want something while the others might want something else entirely. In the end, the idea of devs listening to fans is nice but can only go so far as devs try to juggle the demands of thousands and the vocal minority. 

Then shut down the forum.

If this place isn't considered a representative sample and/or useful feedback for Bioware to consider, then what's the point of having it?

To give them something to point and laugh at on their lunch break.

Also a possibility!

[Mr. MannlyMan]

Agree wholeheartedly with the OP.

The Suicide Mission was stupidly easy to pull through with no casualties; I would have cared more about who I put in harm's way if there had actually been consequences for even the best decisions. I'd rather have a few memorable deaths than a lot of crappy goodbyes at the end of the epiloge.

Modifié par Mr. MannlyMan, 24 octobre 2011 - 06:45 .

[Bogsnot1]

Shouldnt the title read;
Creator Vision collides with Marketing Hype which collides with Customer Expectations?

[lovgreno]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Shouldnt the title read;
Creator Vision collides with Marketing Hype which collides with Customer Expectations?

This is what always happens even if the producers of a product are very skilled at knowing their potential costumers. Wich will lead to some pessimists (who in case of the ME franchise are very few if we are to belive the sale statistics) being very dissapointed that their opinions of what makes a good game doesn't mirror the product they buy and will spend months and years telling people with a different opinion that they are stupid for not realising that the opinions of the pessimists are facts.

Off topic: Bogsnot1, you have a very creepy avatar!

[CptBomBom00]

off topic:Yeah Bogsnot1 has very creepy avatr.

[DiebytheSword]

CptBomBom00 wrote...

off topic:Yeah Bogsnot1 has very creepy avatr.

Willem DaFoe is not so scary . . . but what ever the frig he was doing when that shot was taken HAS to be unnatural.

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 24 octobre 2011 - 09:16 .

[Estelindis]

In general, I agree with the OP. That said, the ending I got for DA:O (forced self-sacrifice by Alistair, although I'd intended my Warden to sacrifice herself) was about as fun as being repeatedly punched in the face. I was left miserable and angry. I can't say I want the same sort of thing from the ending of ME3. Frankly, Mass Effect games have always left me feeling elated and triumphant. I'm hoping to feel the same way when the credits of the third installment roll.

[Note: I'm not saying DA:O's ending wasn't effective.  It was probably the most effective ending of any game I've played.  It just wasn't something I enjoyed.]

Modifié par Estelindis, 24 octobre 2011 - 11:06 .

[Bostur]

I don't think it's reasonable to use to word 'right' about this. Legally I suppose it's EA that owns the characters and they can do whatever they like with them. But if some EA board of directors decide that Garrus should have a sex change operation because that suits the market segment better, I might start raging about it. I don't have any rights to decide anything, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

But artistic vision and integrity, absolutely those are important qualities. Good stories can't be made out of some sense of misunderstood democracy or focus group. The person(s) in charge of the overall story plot should of course decide on their own and use whatever external ressources they deem useful. Then in turn I will reserve my judgement until I see the final result :-)
It can probably be intimidating to work on a series with a big fan base, I imagine some distance is needed to keep the priorities right.


On a similar note, I think it would be nice to sometimes see a more personal touch or edge in game development. When big teams are needed to create something, the artistic vision can easily be lost. One person with enough artistic weight to sometimes cut through the noise and say "We do it my way" may sometimes add more personality.

[Bostur]

Esbatty wrote...

What about the days where there wasn't an online? When game developers made whatever the hell they wanted/higher ups wanted? Ya know, the games we/parents bought because it looked fun or interesting?

You mean like back in the days when Conan Doyle killed Sherlock Holmes to get rid of the series and his fans?


Supposedly this correspondence happened between Conan Doyle and his mother

... in November 1891 he wrote to his mother: "I think of slaying Holmes ...
and winding him up for good and all. He takes my mind from better
things." His mother responded, "You may do what you deem fit, but the
crowds will not take this lightheartedly."

http://en.wikipedia....Sherlock_Holmes

I doubt the burden of 'crowds' or 'fans' is a new thing, but the internet probably gave it a more direct influence.

[Luigitornado]

Should have posted this in the characters and romance section...would have been a more interesting show.

[RyuujinZERO]

2 words: Aeris dies

Now imagine Final Fantasy 7 if you could save her. Would the storytelling been better for it, would the moment had such a profound impact.

I can imagine the fangirls (And even some fanboys) crying buckets if Garrus or some other fan favourite was to die some heroic, noble or even shockingly sudden (and unavoidable) death for the good of the storyline.

But if the writers know what they're doing I say roll with it. I want to be surprised, even shocked. Don't be nice to us Bioware, we've come too far to be hand-held through the galactic war

Modifié par RyuujinZERO, 24 octobre 2011 - 01:13 .

[darthnick427]

I'm buying the game regardless but that doesn't mean I can't hope for a possibility that all my squad will survive. Garrus more than anyone

[Gabey5]

TLDR

customers suxors bioware awesomez?

fanboys are in no shortage here

[Estelindis]

Honestly, I'm fine with obligatory character death, but not so much with the obligatory death of a particular character regardless of a huge range of varying circumstances. Far too often, it's executed poorly and comes across as an asspull.

For all that I complained about the way it made me feel, the situation at the end of DA:O is actually a good example of how to do party member death. There are ways to avoid the death of a particular character (e.g. the Dark Ritual, or leaving the other Warden at the gates - even if I was oblivious to the possibility of leaving Alistair at the gates due to the fact that he had always been in my party and it seemed daft not to bring the other Warden to the final battle).

The Virmire choice is a so-so example. It's good in that one has the chance to choose which character survives. On the other hand, why is there never enough time to save the other person, regardless of how much or how little time one spends talking to Saren? Why can't one leave some extra resources with the other person to help them? It's a bit like the choice at the heart of Bring Down the Sky: it's a brilliant opposition of true paragon to true renegade until you ask yourself why Joker can't shoot Balak out of the sky as soon as he leaves. Basically, I'm not saying that we shouldn't have these situations, but it's important to present them in a fair way: X or Y or Z must happen; there are genuinely no other options.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Agree wit hthe OP except for oen thing.

I don't even require/demand, deaths to be "special/heroic". As far as I'm concerned, a squaddie could be killed wihout any heroic sacrifice, meaningfull impact, or deep last words. (but for them to have an impact on Shep and for him to discuss it with others...yes)

[RyuujinZERO]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Agree wit hthe OP except for oen thing.

I don't even require/demand, deaths to be "special/heroic". As far as I'm concerned, a squaddie could be killed wihout any heroic sacrifice, meaningfull impact, or deep last words. (but for them to have an impact on Shep and for him to discuss it with others...yes)

If they threw Garrus under the bus Jenkins style it'd be TOTALLY worth it. It'd have the desired emotional impact, shock, horror and be unusual enough to go down in gaming history

[Slayer299]

@esbatty - I love that sig

OP - I agree with you for the most part but not entirely.
One of your points is that we should not have any say in BW's vision for ME series and while I agree with that mostly, in that we as fans can make our thoughts/suggestions/criticisms of their game(s) to what we think should be changed and not demand them but if BW did not want any feedback from the fans about flaws or plot holes or what have you than there shouldn't *be* a BSN forum at all and I mean it (not sarcasm).
I also disagree with you about scripted deaths, something like that where all the power is taken out of my hands in a game that has made a great show of choices/consequences would really earn my ire. I do agree with you about the example you gave with Grunt can make sense, but not every game in the exact same place and time.

I would not like it if the love interest of my Shepard dies, but like real life we don't often get to make the choice. Things happen beyond our control so why should a video game be different.

The problem with your example above is that this *is* a game and not real life, I know that I play games to work off a long stressful day and playing a game that *is* like real life is rather pointless for me (one reason I've never played Sim-anything) and one I won't waste time on.

[nitefyre410]

Don't ****** on my leg and tell its raining.


its really not that hard.  


I agree with the Op but don't try force something  down my throat because you  had a "Oh **** our story has emotional impact."   Which the most part the MAIN story of Mass Effect lacks but the Loyality missions did have really good  emotion and drama, especially  Mordin, Tali's and Samara's   


Oh yeah on the sucide mission front ... am I the only person that did not buy that whole Marketing Line...    


Oh lawd don't bring FF7  in this there plenty of  much better examples. 

The Boss  Death at the MG 3 

Nightcrawlers Death in the Second Coming  

 

Modifié par nitefyre410, 24 octobre 2011 - 02:16 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Don't ****** on my leg and tell its raining.

its really not that hard.  


I agree with the Op but don't try force something  down my throat because you  had a "Oh **** our story has emotional impact."   Which the most part the MAIN story of Mass Effect lacks but the Loyality missions did have really good  emotion and drama, especially  Mordin, Tali's and Samara's   


Oh yeah on the sucide mission front ... am I the only person that did not buy that whole Marketing Line... 

Agreed -- Bioware, don't try to lie to me.  Also, don't start wacking characters because you think it gives the game "impact".   Don't start wacking characters because that's what the Hollywood Formula that EA clearly uses tells you is needed.  Don't start wacking characters because you think that our games should "have meaning". 

To answer your other question, no, you're not the only one who realized that the whole "suicide mission" thing was a load of marketing crap. 

But we've already had this thread, and it ended in fire. 

another poster said elsewhere...
Choices like this allow us to explore issues of ethics, duty, and even ourselves

Why on earth would I want that sort of thing from a computer game, which is supposed to be a distraction from the burdens of life? 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 24 octobre 2011 - 02:26 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

It's only a problem when certain pinheads come storming in and say my tastes are stupid.

I thought the pinheads called our tastes "emotionally immature" and such?  

[nitefyre410]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Don't ****** on my leg and tell its raining.

its really not that hard.  


I agree with the Op but don't try force something  down my throat because you  had a "Oh **** our story has emotional impact."   Which the most part the MAIN story of Mass Effect lacks but the Loyality missions did have really good  emotion and drama, especially  Mordin, Tali's and Samara's   


Oh yeah on the sucide mission front ... am I the only person that did not buy that whole Marketing Line... 

Agreed -- Bioware, don't try to lie to me.  Also, don't start wacking characters because you think it gives the game "impact".   Don't start wacking characters because that's what the Hollywood Formula that EA clearly uses tells you is needed.  Don't start wacking characters because you think that our games should "have meaning". 

To answer your other question, no, you're not the only one who realized that the whole "suicide mission" thing was a load of marketing crap. 

But we've already had this thread, and it ended in fire. 

 


This is true - I was lurking for most of the thread got some good lulz  for a few days.