194 réponses à ce sujet

[Recon Member]

Bekkael wrote...
Unless one of them is Zaeed and you killed him on his loyalty mission after the SM.

I'm sure he survived. The guy is UNSTOPPABLE.

[RyuujinZERO]

jeweledleah wrote...

I'm sorry, thousands of being beingcrushed alive, slowlysuffocating under the rubble.. is not tragedy?  you cannot be serious. Reapers are attacking.  people will be dying, in droves.  you will actualy be able to witnessit, the tragedy, the loss of life, having to escape becasue you cannot do anything at the time, KNOWING that the longer you take, the more people will die.  but I forget, all those deaths don't matter. that story about a turkish guy who was reunited with his fiance?  you probably think it would have been better if they dug her up, only to have her die in his arms or something >_>  except thats' not the tone that BOTH Mass Effect games set so far.

Played wrong it could become hollywood tragedy.

War of the Worlds remake being a prime example. Faceless civilians all around the protagonist are slaughter in their droves, but deep down you know no harm can come to the protagonist and his family, because half the family are very young children (Mainstream Hollywood movies seldom dare to even hurt kids, let alone kill them), and the protagonists are parents to the said very young children - again, mainstream Hollywood doesn't like making orphans. Worst case scenario one of the adults dies.)

As a result, the apocalyptic setting served merely as a backdrop because no real harm could come to the main characters and if you were remotely genre savvy; you knew this even if you'd never seen the film.

Having played through Mass Effect 1 with only the forced virmire death of a character I didn't much care for anyway (In my case, a less vengeful clone of Carth Onasi) and then ME2 with no deaths at all of the main cast even on my canon first play through, I'm feeling rather like I'm in a safe little cocoon, that as long as I'm diligent and play my cards logically, no harm will come to my crew and all the death and destruction around me only applies to "everyone else"

[Killjoy Cutter]

jeweledleah wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

interesting thing about tragedy having meaning and emotional impact. reading an article today, on earthquake in Turkey.. and you know what they focus on? people who have been rescued. families that have been reunited. against all odds and through horrible hardships. it was the same during Japan's earthquake. all the best stories? they were about hope. about children reuniting with parents, owners with their pets, after weeks of thinking the worst.

sometimes hope makes the best emotional impact. and accusations of unrealistic fly out the window when you have people being rescued after floating for over a week at sea. sometimes hope perseveres, life perseveres against all odds. and it makes a damn good story.

No. You can't have hope without tragedy. 

I'm sorry, thousands of being beingcrushed alive, slowlysuffocating under the rubble.. is not tragedy?  you cannot be serious. Reapers are attacking.  people will be dying, in droves.  you will actualy be able to witnessit, the tragedy, the loss of life, having to escape becasue you cannot do anything at the time, KNOWING that the longer you take, the more people will die.  but I forget, all those deaths don't matter. that story about a turkish guy who was reunited with his fiance?  you probably think it would have been better if they dug her up, only to have her die in his arms or something >_>  except thats' not the tone that BOTH Mass Effect games set so far.

I expect the responses to your post to fall into one or both of the following new tropes: 

1) It Only Counts If You Know Them

2) It's Only Good If Someone Dies

[jeweledleah]

@ RyuujinZERO you completely lost me at Carth Onasi clone.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

I think he means Kaidan leah.

[RyuujinZERO]

jeweledleah wrote...

@ RyuujinZERO you completely lost me at Carth Onasi clone.

Kaidan Alenko. Same voice actor (Fills the same role in the cast too) as Carth Onasi in Knights of the Old Republic.

Modifié par RyuujinZERO, 24 octobre 2011 - 06:55 .

[Bekkael]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Bekkael wrote...
Unless one of them is Zaeed and you killed him on his loyalty mission after the SM.

I'm sure only intentional fail!Sheps have that kind of scenario going though.

I honestly might do that for one of mine, just cause I despise his selfish attitude. Let Zaeed die, I mean, not kill off everyone else on my team.

Ah, but will he really be dead, or did he somehow magically survive (again)? I think some of his comments are funny, and he can just go suck it when my paragon saves those people in the refinery. Aw, poor baby didn't get his revenge? Tough. Of course my renegade let those same people burn. Oops.

[jeweledleah]

RyuujinZERO wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

@ RyuujinZERO you completely lost me at Carth Onasi clone.

Kaidan Alenko. Same voice actor (Even visually similar and has similar temperament) as Carth Onasi in Knights of the Old Republic.

I know.  because the same voice actor = same personality, amirite? I guess Scorch is Carth clone too?  well at least the clone part fits.

"you lost me at"  is an expression.  I didn't misunderstand what you were trying to say, I'm merely disregarding it.

case in point.  you didn't care about so called tragedy anyways. so that forced death?  accomplished absolutely nothing.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 24 octobre 2011 - 06:58 .

[nitefyre410]

RyuujinZERO wrote...

Is nobody here familiar with the concept of tragedy?

It's a style of writing with ancient roots dating back to the Ancient Greeks and beyond and extending to modern times, including some very famous plays such a Hamlet, Macbeth, Romeo and Juliet (Heck it was one of Shakespeares best areas).

There's nothing masochistic to it. It's saying that Bioware should keep their literary styles open and not worry themselves about upsetting the fans.



...also is nobody here familiar with the concept of Sinking Ships? 

 


very familar with it but it stops being  tragedy and turns into  Wangst,  Narm(Virimire),Shoot the Shaggy Dog   when  over used and forced feed into EVERY  single  thing. Also  Tragedy is a very  general term  and encompases everything from  death, heart brake, love triangles,  family lies, to the very under used betrayal.  All wonderful things that when used properal in the right dose make for great story telling. When used poorly well many of us will fall into Angst Dissoance and quite frankly stop giving a **** about the characters.    


Bioware should of course keep the litary styles open but  Bioware should also be savvy enough to know  what they are writing  as well. 

Matter of fact   #8 on the Angst Dissoance  speaks directly to what  I have been saying   see 


"As with real people, no matter how serious or genuine the complaint some fictional characters can just go way over the top with moaning about it. They may also just be moaning about nothing, or something that is actually pretty cool if they thought about it. The creators may also be trying WAY too hard to make things angsty for their characters, which can pull the audience right out of the story if it's just too obvious and contrived."

Modifié par nitefyre410, 24 octobre 2011 - 07:01 .

[Bekkael]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Bekkael wrote...
Unless one of them is Zaeed and you killed him on his loyalty mission after the SM.

I'm sure only intentional fail!Sheps have that kind of scenario going though.

I honestly might do that for one of mine, just cause I despise his selfish attitude. Let Zaeed die, I mean, not kill off everyone else on my team.

Ah, but will he really be dead, or did he somehow magically survive (again)? I think some of his comments are funny, and he can just go suck it when my paragon saves those people in the refinery. Aw, poor baby didn't get his revenge? Tough. Of course my renegade let those same people burn. Oops.

I'm enough of a Paragon that I honestly really felt bad the time my renegade let them die.

Me too, but I did have four paragon playthroughs before I got to the renegade. That's gotta buy me some decent karma, right?

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...
Oh come on, people say that here all the time. I wouldn't know how true it is, but it's hardly something to take offense at.

Just because many people say it does not make it less idiotic.

[Bekkael]

jeweledleah wrote...

I know.  because the same voice actor = same personality, amirite? I guess Scorch is Carth clone too?  well at least the clone part fits.

The Kaidan bashing is so original. <_<

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

jeweledleah wrote...

RyuujinZERO wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

@ RyuujinZERO you completely lost me at Carth Onasi clone.

Kaidan Alenko. Same voice actor (Even visually similar and has similar temperament) as Carth Onasi in Knights of the Old Republic.

I know.  because the same voice actor = same personality, amirite? I guess Scorch is Carth clone too?  well at least the clone part fits.

"you lost me at"  is an expression.  I didn't misunderstand what you were trying to say, I'm merely disregarding it.

case in point.  you didn't care about so called tragedy anyways. so that forced death?  accomplished absolutely nothing.

Yeah I figured you did, my comment was tongue in cheek too. To be fair they do have the same archetypal role, and the actor uses his same voice which is quite recognisable. For example Bastila = Femshep: does not compute. But yea they're certainly not identical, and without derailing the thread I think the "tough krogan" is far more prone to cloneintis, same actor or not.

Modifié par fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb, 24 octobre 2011 - 07:08 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

nitefyre410 wrote...

RyuujinZERO wrote...

Is nobody here familiar with the concept of tragedy?

It's a style of writing with ancient roots dating back to the Ancient Greeks and beyond and extending to modern times, including some very famous plays such a Hamlet, Macbeth, Romeo and Juliet (Heck it was one of Shakespeares best areas).

There's nothing masochistic to it. It's saying that Bioware should keep their literary styles open and not worry themselves about upsetting the fans.



...also is nobody here familiar with the concept of Sinking Ships? 

 


very familar with it but it stops being  tragedy and turns into  Wangst,  Narm(Virimire),Shoot the Shaggy Dog   when  over used and forced feed into EVERY  single  thing. Also  Tragedy is a very  general term  and encompases everything from  death, heart brake, love triangles,  family lies, to the very under used betrayal.  All wonderful things that when used properal in the right dose make for great story telling. When used poorly well many of us will fall into Angst Dissoance and quite frankly stop giving a **** about the characters.    


Bioware should of course keep the litary styles open but  Bioware should also be savvy enough to know  what they are writing  as well. 

Matter of fact   #8 on the Angst Dissoance  speaks directly to what  I have been saying   see 


"As with real people, no matter how serious or genuine the complaint some fictional characters can just go way over the top with moaning about it. They may also just be moaning about nothing, or something that is actually pretty cool if they thought about it. The creators may also be trying WAY too hard to make things angsty for their characters, which can pull the audience right out of the story if it's just too obvious and contrived."

Yes. Because using it once in ME3 would be way too much. God forbid that one of the 15 possible squadmates will be in mortal danger in an intergalactic war for survival.

[nitefyre410]

Lizardviking wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

RyuujinZERO wrote...

Is nobody here familiar with the concept of tragedy?

It's a style of writing with ancient roots dating back to the Ancient Greeks and beyond and extending to modern times, including some very famous plays such a Hamlet, Macbeth, Romeo and Juliet (Heck it was one of Shakespeares best areas).

There's nothing masochistic to it. It's saying that Bioware should keep their literary styles open and not worry themselves about upsetting the fans.



...also is nobody here familiar with the concept of Sinking Ships? 

 


very familar with it but it stops being  tragedy and turns into  Wangst,  Narm(Virimire),Shoot the Shaggy Dog   when  over used and forced feed into EVERY  single  thing. Also  Tragedy is a very  general term  and encompases everything from  death, heart brake, love triangles,  family lies, to the very under used betrayal.  All wonderful things that when used properal in the right dose make for great story telling. When used poorly well many of us will fall into Angst Dissoance and quite frankly stop giving a **** about the characters.    


Bioware should of course keep the litary styles open but  Bioware should also be savvy enough to know  what they are writing  as well. 

Matter of fact   #8 on the Angst Dissoance  speaks directly to what  I have been saying   see 


"As with real people, no matter how serious or genuine the complaint some fictional characters can just go way over the top with moaning about it. They may also just be moaning about nothing, or something that is actually pretty cool if they thought about it. The creators may also be trying WAY too hard to make things angsty for their characters, which can pull the audience right out of the story if it's just too obvious and contrived."

Yes. Because using it once in ME3 would be way too much. God forbid that one of the 15 possible squadmates will be in mortal danger in an intergalactic war for survival.

 


Did I say using it once would be bad? NO.  Did  I say using ever would be bad? NO.   I said if it  was forced, contrived and obivious.... If  this can be done and not look like they are trying to force  emotional impact into the story(which if  we are having this conversation is mostly  likely the case).... then fine. If they  are not able to pull that off I could give  two damns about  how mortal danger that they are in.. .its just plain bad.   


Thats what I said, thats what I have said, and thats what I will continue to say.    

Modifié par nitefyre410, 24 octobre 2011 - 07:27 .

[Bostur]

nitefyre410 wrote...

very familar with it but it stops being  tragedy and turns into  Wangst,  Narm(Virimire),Shoot the Shaggy Dog   when  over used and forced feed into EVERY  single  thing. Also  Tragedy is a very  general term  and encompases everything from  death, heart brake, love triangles,  family lies, to the very under used betrayal.  All wonderful things that when used properal in the right dose make for great story telling. When used poorly well many of us will fall into Angst Dissoance and quite frankly stop giving a **** about the characters.    


Bioware should of course keep the litary styles open but  Bioware should also be savvy enough to know  what they are writing  as well. 

Matter of fact   #8 on the Angst Dissoance  speaks directly to what  I have been saying   see 


"As with real people, no matter how serious or genuine the complaint some fictional characters can just go way over the top with moaning about it. They may also just be moaning about nothing, or something that is actually pretty cool if they thought about it. The creators may also be trying WAY too hard to make things angsty for their characters, which can pull the audience right out of the story if it's just too obvious and contrived."

Being old and unhip, I wish that website would explain the term 'angst'. Maybe someone else can enlightnen me. In my language it's a common word that simply means anxiety. Fear without concrete manifestation. I never really managed to figure out what the internet meme means.

I'm guessing there is a link to Kierkegaard and his spiritual/religious meaning of the word anxiety, but thats way to deep for me. ;-)

In my logic lack of tragedy could be a cause of anxiety, while too much tragedy admittedly can cause us to be immune to it.

[Nashiktal]

My eyes blurred when I looked at those paragraphs. Can anyone give me a quick summary? For some strange reasons my eyes just won't let me read the op.

[C9316]

I agree with the OP 100%, I'd hate to see Wrex or Garrus die but I'd remember them going down like bad@sses...

[Nashiktal]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

My eyes blurred when I looked at those paragraphs. Can anyone give me a quick summary? For some strange reasons my eyes just won't let me read the op.

OP said, "I wouldn't mind if BW let people die in ME3, just let them write their story."

Ah, if thats the case why didn't he just post that in the thread discussing character deaths already?

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

RyuujinZERO wrote...

Is nobody here familiar with the concept of tragedy?

It's a style of writing with ancient roots dating back to the Ancient Greeks and beyond and extending to modern times, including some very famous plays such a Hamlet, Macbeth, Romeo and Juliet (Heck it was one of Shakespeares best areas).

There's nothing masochistic to it. It's saying that Bioware should keep their literary styles open and not worry themselves about upsetting the fans.



...also is nobody here familiar with the concept of Sinking Ships? 

 
very familar with it but it stops being  tragedy and turns into  Wangst,  Narm(Virimire),Shoot the Shaggy Dog   when  over used and forced feed into EVERY  single  thing. Also  Tragedy is a very  general term  and encompases everything from  death, heart brake, love triangles,  family lies, to the very under used betrayal.  All wonderful things that when used properal in the right dose make for great story telling. When used poorly well many of us will fall into Angst Dissoance and quite frankly stop giving a **** about the characters.    


Bioware should of course keep the litary styles open but  Bioware should also be savvy enough to know  what they are writing  as well. 

Matter of fact   #8 on the Angst Dissoance  speaks directly to what  I have been saying   see 


"As with real people, no matter how serious or genuine the complaint some fictional characters can just go way over the top with moaning about it. They may also just be moaning about nothing, or something that is actually pretty cool if they thought about it. The creators may also be trying WAY too hard to make things angsty for their characters, which can pull the audience right out of the story if it's just too obvious and contrived."

Yes. Because using it once in ME3 would be way too much. God forbid that one of the 15 possible squadmates will be in mortal danger in an intergalactic war for survival.

 


Did I say using it once would be bad? NO.  Did  I say using ever would be bad? NO.   I said if it  was forced, contrived and obivious.... If  this can be done and not look like they are trying to force  emotional impact into the story(which if  we are having this conversation is mostly  likely the case).... then fine. If they  are not able to pull that off I could give  two damns about  how mortal danger that they are in.. .its just plain bad.   


Thats what I said, thats what I have said, and thats what I will continue to say.   

My apologies then. Thought for a moment you were one of those who instantly disregarded it as forced or contrived.

[Bekkael]

C9316 wrote...

I agree with the OP 100%, I'd hate to see Wrex or Garrus die but I'd remember them going down like bad@sses...

But if they died crying like little girls would you feel betrayed?