194 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

jeweledleah wrote...

case in point.  you didn't care about so called tragedy anyways. so that forced death?  accomplished absolutely nothing.

Primarily because any writer understands that if you don't enjoy the character, you're probably not going to feel mournful their death. At the least, it's more difficult. But that hardly serves as an argument against forced death; rather, that serves as an argument against Ashley/Kaidan.

If you want an equivalent example, that would be like arguing that happy endings accomplish nothing if I don't enjoy the story being told, which is a given and entirely subjective. People rarely enjoy plot elements if they have nothing invested in the experience, that goes for any literary device.

Now, if that scenario had involved Alistair and Morrigan? You can believe I would care about the tragedy. It was just bad luck that Bioware chose to use (in my opinion) their two least enjoyable characters ever created for Virmire.

Modifié par Il Divo, 24 octobre 2011 - 07:44 .

[nitefyre410]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

 The problem is nitefyre that anybody can say something was "forced" or "contrived." It's a subjective statement, so even if the death seems very really and is well done, anyone can say "Well I thought it was forced" and away they go.

 


I never said it wasn't   

but thats a talk about Opinions  that we can having but it would de rail the entire thread... 
but you know that old  saying about opinions and what everyone  has.... this applies too myself as well helps keeps things in prespective.  

Honestly you are correct there is a huge difference between a few dissenting opinions and that entire audience... "Oh WTF REALLY?!"     

If Bioware  can  hit the few dissenting opinions then all is good .  More often than not I have seen  the trying inject"Drama"  attempt fall in to the "OH WTF REALLY?!"  

Modifié par nitefyre410, 24 octobre 2011 - 07:43 .

[Robuthad]

Thank god, that thread was tired with exhausted viewpoints

[Bekkael]

Robuthad wrote...

Thank god, that thread was tired with exhausted viewpoints

This one will likely follow the same merry path.

[Arcadian Legend]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

I wondered that too, maybe he just wanted his own thread. I haven't seen that one (Let me save them) lately.

It got locked o:

Modifié par DarkRiku7, 24 octobre 2011 - 07:43 .

[Il Divo]

Bekkael wrote...

Very true. I will never understand why some people want to choose suffering in a video game over triumph, when we hope for the exact opposite in real life. The stories I grew up reading were usually about heroes overcoming impossible odds to emerge victorious. If they had been full of significant character death, they wouldn't have been stories I read over and over. Call me crazy, but if I smash my thumb with a hammer, I'm not eager to repeat the experience.

What you are brushing against is the debate between realism vs. escapism. I only enjoy realism in so far as it lets me enjoy a different setting/universe. Ex: Science fiction, swords n sorcery. I don't always enjoy it when a writer gives the cast a plot shield, merely because he never wants me to experience any other emotion, beyond happiness.

Some of the best stories ever told have involved suffering and tragedy. Even if they choose not to use it, I believe Bioware should have that artistic freedom available, rather than tell them "you can't do X". And if they do it, I think it should be done well, so it doesn't come off as half-assed. I personally just want the best story possible, and that is done by giving Bioware the most creative freedom.

Modifié par Il Divo, 24 octobre 2011 - 07:47 .

[C9316]

Bekkael wrote...

C9316 wrote...

I agree with the OP 100%, I'd hate to see Wrex or Garrus die but I'd remember them going down like bad@sses...

But if they died crying like little girls would you feel betrayed?

I'd remember them as they were before they died: manly men of manliness!

[Il Divo]

jreezy wrote...

RyuujinZERO wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

@ RyuujinZERO you completely lost me at Carth Onasi clone.

Kaidan Alenko. Same voice actor (Fills the same role in the cast too) as Carth Onasi in Knights of the Old Republic.

Wow...

Yeah, Bioware wasn't that original in crafting Kaidan's personality.  

[Bekkael]

Il Divo wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

Very true. I will never understand why some people want to choose suffering in a video game over triumph, when we hope for the exact opposite in real life. The stories I grew up reading were usually about heroes overcoming impossible odds to emerge victorious. If they had been full of significant character death, they wouldn't have been stories I read over and over. Call me crazy, but if I smash my thumb with a hammer, I'm not eager to repeat the experience.

What you are brushing against is the debate between realism vs. escapism. I only enjoy realism in so far as it lets me enjoy a different setting/universe. Ex: Science fiction, swords n sorcery. I don't always enjoy it when a writer gives the cast a plot shield, merely because he never wants me to experience any other emotion.

Some of the best stories ever told have involved suffering and tragedy. Even if they choose not to use it, I believe Bioware should have that artistic freedom available, rather than tell them "you can't do X". And if they do it, I think it should be done well, so it doesn't come off as half-assed. I personally just want the best story possible, and that is done by giving Bioware the most creative freedom.

That sounds reasonable. If tragedy is well done and not over done, I can roll with that. But if the attempt to elicit a certain type of emotional response means being bashed upside the head with the tragedy stick just for the sake of drama, I would like another option, thanks.

Besides which: "Two millions dead in the first day. Another seven million dead by the end of the first week." No matter if close party members die or not, you would have to have the empathy of a block of wood not to feel pain as the population of earth is murdered. I don't think we are going to have a lack of tragedy in ME3 at all.

[billy the squid]

Bekkael wrote...

That sounds reasonable. If tragedy is well done and not over done, I can roll with that. But if the attempt to elicit a certain type of emotional response means being bashed upside the head with the tragedy stick just for the sake of drama, I would like another option, thanks.

This, either do it properly or don't do it. No point in "face planting" at the final hurdle, by misimplementing concepts.

Modifié par billy the squid, 24 octobre 2011 - 08:09 .

[Bekkael]

Il Divo wrote...

jreezy wrote...

RyuujinZERO wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

@ RyuujinZERO you completely lost me at Carth Onasi clone.

Kaidan Alenko. Same voice actor (Fills the same role in the cast too) as Carth Onasi in Knights of the Old Republic.

Wow...

Yeah, Bioware wasn't that original in crafting Kaidan's personality.  

They're vastly different characters, but unless you played as female Revan or female Shepard, I don't expect you to know this or have the wherewithal to appreciate what they offer in depth.

Raphael Sbarge said it quite well in his audioblog.

As an actor, do you enjoy Kaidan’s character over the arc of Mass Effect?

RB: Absolutely. The thing that I love about Kaidan – and I’ve done quite a few video games – but the thing that I love about him so much, is what a complex guy he is, and that he’s not just sort of a bad-ass freedom
fighter out there in the universe, fighting geth and trying to just shoot and kill whatever comes out. You sense – and clearly, obviously now, I’m seeing a theme – this is a guy who’s got a conscience, and this is a man who is really intent on doing the right thing and has also – and again, this is the writing – has a very tender side to him. Has a sensitivity, despite the fact that he’s got a tremendous strength and a power, and he’s loyal. He’s strong. And he has clearly a soft side and a heart.

His relationship with Shepard, the female Shepard – the writing is just wonderful. Some of the best writing for Kaidan, for all three of the games, is coming up in Mass Effect 3, which is steamy. And thrilling to do. And, I mean, it’s sort of an actor’s dream to be able to have, in this case, a character that’s as rich as this is.

Modifié par Bekkael, 24 octobre 2011 - 08:10 .

[Il Divo]

Bekkael wrote...

They're vastly different characters, but unless you played as female Revan or female Shepard, I don't expect you to know this or have the wherewithal to appreciate what they offer in depth. 

Haha, well I do admit that I favor male characters, but I still wouldn't say I consider the characters vastly different. I did the Carth romance once, which wasn't bad. In Kaidan's case, especially as a male character, I found that he had substantially less to say, especially once you remove the revenge arc.

Modifié par Il Divo, 24 octobre 2011 - 08:16 .

[nitefyre410]

Really the whole character death debate is minor what I'm more worried about is the reasoning behind TIM working with the Reapers after spending 30 plus years trying to stop... Either Reapers are pulling a great mind screw or TIM may just took a few lvls of magnificent Bastard and reached Ocelot and Aizen levels.

[Bekkael]

Il Divo wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

They're vastly different characters, but unless you played as female Revan or female Shepard, I don't expect you to know this or have the wherewithal to appreciate what they offer in depth. 

Haha, well I do admit that I favor male characters, but I still wouldn't say I consider the characters vastly different. I did the Carth romance once, which wasn't bad. In Kaidan's case, especially as a male character, I found that he had substantially less to say, especially once you remove the revenge arc.

It is a crying shame that Kaidan has so little to say to a male Shepard, compared to a female Shepard. As his romance, I learned all about his past, and his thoughts and opinions on many things. As much as I loved Ashley, that closeness prevented me from ever being able to leave him behind on Virmire. (Not to mention that tactically, he was the more valuable of the two.)

Lack of friendship paths for non-romanced characters bugs me. Apparently, Jack is a sensational character in ME2, but I didn't get to know that because as a FemShep player I didn't romance her (nor did I care to), so missed out on some character progression. For my FemShep, she remained a bitter and angry b*tch. That's troublesome when only someone who romances a character gets to really know them and enjoy them. There are far more friendships (potentially) than romances, so those relationships should be just as deep and satisfying. It would require more writing and VA work though, so I don't know if we will ever see an improvement in that area.

Modifié par Bekkael, 24 octobre 2011 - 08:30 .

[nitefyre410]

Bekkael wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

They're vastly different characters, but unless you played as female Revan or female Shepard, I don't expect you to know this or have the wherewithal to appreciate what they offer in depth. 

Haha, well I do admit that I favor male characters, but I still wouldn't say I consider the characters vastly different. I did the Carth romance once, which wasn't bad. In Kaidan's case, especially as a male character, I found that he had substantially less to say, especially once you remove the revenge arc.

It is a crying shame that Kaidan has so little to say to a male Shepard, compared to a female Shepard. As his romance, I learned all about his past, and his thoughts and opinions on many things. As much as I loved Ashley, that closeness prevented me from ever being able to leave him behind on Virmire. (Not to mention that tactically, he was the more valuable of the two.)

Lack of friendship paths for non-romanced characters bugs me. Apparently, Jack is a sensational character in ME2, but I didn't get to know that because as a FemShep player I didn't romance her (nor did I care to), so missed out on some character progression. For my FemShep, she remained a bitter and angry b*tch. That's troublesome when only someone who romances a character gets to really know them and enjoy them. There are far more friendships (potentially) than romances, so those relationships should be just as deep and satisfying. It would require more writing and VA work though, so I don't know if we will ever see an improvement in that area.

 

I agree  even   with my male  Shepard I did not want to jump in bed with a clearly emotional damaged person who is in  no kind of  shape to even form a  healthly relationship   be it short term or long term.  Its almost like they just jump over all the good juice bits of her issue that need to be high lighted and worked just to get the romance.. 

[RyuujinZERO]

Bekkael wrote...

They're vastly different characters, but unless you played as female Revan or female Shepard, I don't expect you to know this or have the wherewithal to appreciate what they offer in depth.

Played as both actually >.>

Carths persistant distrust and whineyness didn't exactly make me warm up to him.

Kaidan I found to be too squishy in ME1, Ashley could stand up better to a firefight and I'm a sentinel like Kaidan so there was role redundancy and didn't really hang around with him much in the field, and was on the first or second step of the romance ladder by Virmire. When he volunteered to lead the fire team I let him do so instead of making Ashley do it, then when he got cut off I protected the bomb instead of saving him (Which'd risk jeprodising the entire mission.)

I'm Commander Shepard, and this is the coldest mofo on the citadel

Modifié par RyuujinZERO, 24 octobre 2011 - 08:46 .

[Bekkael]

RyuujinZERO wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

They're vastly different characters, but unless you played as female Revan or female Shepard, I don't expect you to know this or have the wherewithal to appreciate what they offer in depth.

Played as both actually >.>

Carths persistant distrust and whineyness didn't exactly make me warm up to him.

Kaidan I found to be too squishy in ME1, Ashley could stand up better to a firefight and I'm a sentinel like Kaidan so there was role redundancy and didn't really hang around with him much in the field, and was on the first or second step of the romance ladder by Virmire. When he volunteered to lead the fire team I let him do so instead of making Ashley do it, then when he got cut off I protected the bomb instead of saving him (Which'd risk jeprodising the entire mission.)

I'm Commander Shepard, and this is the coldest mofo on the citadel

Perhaps your definition of whining is different to mine (although I will say it applies a bit more to Carth). I've seen that label liberally applied to Kaidan as well, and I felt nothing could be further from the truth as far as my experience went.

As to whether Kaidan is a badass/squishy etc., it all depends on how you level him. I played as a sentinel as well and focused on tech in my leveling, and biotics and medic for Kaidan. He saved my ass more times than I could possibly count with his biotic god skills and ability to patch my Shep up. He was the only squad member that was with me for the entire game, when I rotated other party members depending on the enemy and situation. Likewise, I used Miranda an awful lot in ME2. I just find sentinels the best all-arounders. YMMV.

(I did recently start a playthrough to make a live Ashley using Genesis, because she is an amazing character too and I want to see how her story ends in ME3.)

[DiebytheSword]

I so agree with Bekkael's block of wood comment. Heroes do not need to be the target of the reaper to induce tragedy, but, I would not complain if they were so long as they were killed with the respect due to the character. See Trinity in the matrix films for an example of a great character that might as well have been pooped on by the writers. If Garrus dies because I bumped the Normandy into space junk I'll get pissed. If Garrus heroically holds the line and dies as a consequence, I could be alright with that.

Revan and Shepard are very different characters with very different character progression. Same for Carth Onassi and Kaidan Alenko.

[InvincibleHero]

Not the Droid wrote...

My only disagreement is the consumer has no say they do (see crystal pepsi hehe) In the long run they sure do as its the money that talks. Other than that I think you are pretty dead on.
I vowed not to get into the death o people thing but Personally think they killed off shepard once to quick allready, so now may need to resort to killing him again or having to off the most loved of his crew for the same impact. (sigh see what you made me do )

Still I sure do not know how its gonna go, and I bet they are actually gonna pull this off

Of course people can vote for which products they like by buying it or not. I just don't undertand  the logic when people post do this BW or I won't buy the game. It applies to other things like thermal clips too. However, I believe gameplay is a better section for complaints/suggestions. I mean some people think they can dictate story to BW and trash on it because it did not reach their preconceived notions of what should occur. Now, both ME and ME2 have weaknesses in various areas but overall for a video game the storyline is quite good. You, I and others can quibble on details but the games were entertaining at least to me and the story did not detract so much to ruin the experience for me.

Yeah I didn't like the death of Shepard and the Lazarus project that much, but it's done and I only occasionally posted about it in threads the subject came up. I ceratinly didn't try to talk people into seeing my argument and accepting it.

I don't think Shepard's death was that impactful because they kind of handwaved it away. Sure "comatose" or is that actually dead two years and resurrected and then a few snide remarks and that's it. Maybe there will be some payoff in ME3 as one can hope the story of "Shepard's resurrection". Maybe it was all a brainwash by Cerberus LOL (NO please I hope not).

[InvincibleHero]

wizardryforever wrote...

I agree with this wholeheartedly.  As an amateur writer of sorts, I can definitely empathize with the devs on this one.  You need to stay true to your original vision, and any changes that are made need to have just as much enthusiasm as the original.  If they don't, they feel tacked on or clash with the rest of it.  Try to anticipate what your consumers will appreciate the most, and cultivate your vision thereof. 

I think people heap too much criticism on Bioware.  They are human and make mistakes like the rest of us, even with the amount of time and money they have.  They also may have very different tastes on what fits the universe they have created than you do.  Remember that it is their intellectual property, and if you think you can do better, there's always fanfic.

I agree I don't think people should be dictating story at all. It is one thing to give feedback and tell likes/dislikes and why and another to say you can't kill anyone or saying kill x character because they don't like them or because the cahracter has a fanbase they don't like.

Well some criticism is to be expected but some people go overboard and act like one small part of the game was horrible and ruined the whole experience for them. One example is lack of hardsuits for some characters.

Fan fic yeah it is an outlet for some people. I heard one notorious fan fic writer even rewrote both games to suit his tastes and claimed it was better. Now if he came up with the ideas in the first place then maybe he'd have a point. Just changing what someone else created does not make one a writer or creator. He'd be best served creating his own fictional sci-fi universe if he can. Mass effect belongs to BW and by extension EA so their universe so let them create with a free hand.  

[Fhaileas]

...as if Bioware have "actually" stayed true to their Original vision... Funny!

[Not the Droid]

Dear Invincible hero,

Thank you for quoting me, though I think we are nearly eye to on this one.
I worry as no where in your counter did you call into question my Intelligence
nor the promoscuity of my mother, nor call me a cry baby or laugh at my lack
of skill. I do not know what your game is but I have been lurking
long enough even though a near newb to know you are up
to something!!!
........
Hehe and too add a little more ammo for your allready great post Many "cult classics" movies really fall right in line with this. At the time reception my have been bad even but they just were ahead of there time.

[InvincibleHero]

jreezy wrote...

Actually, we don't have ownership over anything, including Shepard. BioWare could just forcibly kill him off if they wanted to as well.

BW been there and done that.  We certainly have more claim to ownership of Shepard after all we got to choose several things and even develop some sort of personality through our decisions and actions. Would you not agree with that?

Yeah they could end the game with Shepard's death but that is unlikely. Besides with no ME4 to import to well if they want to do it no skin off my back. I tend to dislike main character dies at end, but if Bw does it then I will still play the game multiple times to end each of my character storylines anyways. It is the journey and not the destination that matters most.