194 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

jeweledleah wrote...
I'm sorry, thousands of being beingcrushed alive, slowlysuffocating under the rubble.. is not tragedy?  you cannot be serious. Reapers are attacking.  people will be dying, in droves.  you will actualy be able to witnessit, the tragedy, the loss of life, having to escape becasue you cannot do anything at the time, KNOWING that the longer you take, the more people will die.  but I forget, all those deaths don't matter.

They do matter. BUT, they are not personal. Shep suffered no personal loss.
The difference between the two is vast.

[Lotion Soronarr]

RyuujinZERO wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Agree wit hthe OP except for oen thing.

I don't even require/demand, deaths to be "special/heroic". As far as I'm concerned, a squaddie could be killed wihout any heroic sacrifice, meaningfull impact, or deep last words. (but for them to have an impact on Shep and for him to discuss it with others...yes)

If they threw Garrus under the bus Jenkins style it'd be TOTALLY worth it. It'd have the desired emotional impact, shock, horror and be unusual enough to go down in gaming history

Indeed. An seemingly pointless death, the potnetial of a character cut short. - that's a real shocker right there.
There's mroe heroic sacrifices in games that I cna count. But when the last time a character died doing nothing heroic at all? No intentional sacrifice. No speeches. No sappy music.

Just you and you buddy talking in what's supposed to be a safe position, your guards down...them BOOOM. headshot!

[Lotion Soronarr]

Slayer299 wrote...

I would not like it if the love interest of my Shepard dies, but like real life we don't often get to make the choice. Things happen beyond our control so why should a video game be different.

The problem with your example above is that this *is* a game and not real life, I know that I play games to work off a long stressful day and playing a game that *is* like real life is rather pointless for me (one reason I've never played Sim-anything) and one I won't waste time on.

I can think of a bajillion better games to wind down with.
ME3, with a race of space cthulus and a galactic war harldy feels like a soothing, relaxing game.

[Estelindis]

Il Divo wrote...
Bioware wasn't that original in crafting Kaidan's personality.  

You know, I was going to quote my giant list of differences between Kaidan and Carth again, but then I saw that you were the person whose posts elicited it last time as well.    It's all very well to not like a character (we all have different tastes).    However, claiming that Kaidan is a Carth clone simply isn't an accurate reflection of the characters' personality.  

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Estelindis wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
Bioware wasn't that original in crafting Kaidan's personality.  

You know, I was going to quote my giant list of differences between Kaidan and Carth again, but then I saw that you were the person whose posts elicited it last time as well.    It's all very well to not like a character (we all have different tastes).    However, claiming that Kaidan is a Carth clone simply isn't an accurate reflection of the characters' personality.  

That's as may be, but your "giant list" didn't mention personality once.

Also, Inb4 lotion assumes direct control:?

Modifié par fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb, 25 octobre 2011 - 10:38 .

[Estelindis]

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...
your "giant list" didn't mention personality once. 

I disagree.  But, then again, I've always seen the skills one chooses to pursue as reflective of one's personality.  

Even if we ignore that, though, their life experiences are sufficiently disparate that it's difficult to know how either would have reacted in the other's shoes and thus to make a thorough comparison of personality.  Consider, for instance, the massive losses Carth has suffered.  Unstandably, these losses have made him very bitter and distrustful, particularly towards the Sith.  We might try to compare this to Kaidan's attitude towards what he suffered during his biotic training, which did not embitter him towards turians but actually broadened his perspective.   Frankly, though, Kaidan's experience was much less traumatic than Carth's.   Even Shepard working with Cerberus is nothing near as awful; while Kaidan still trusts Shepard, but just doesn't trust Cerberus, Carth can't trust Saul or the Sith.  It's impossible to know how Kaidan would react to a betrayal as profound as what Carth suffered.  There's just too much dissimilarity and not enough data that works for a good comparison.  Accordingly, claims that they're similar are fairly baseless.  The only things I really think they have in common are a military background and a sense of honour, in which case you could just as easily compare either of them to 90% of Bioware's male leads.

[Yezdigerd]

I don't know whats cuter, the OPs notion that Bioware goes to this forum for inspiration, or that ME2 player empowered lack of scripted deaths isn't their artistic vision.

[Il Divo]

Estelindis wrote...


You know, I was going to quote my giant list of differences between Kaidan and Carth again, but then I saw that you were the person whose posts elicited it last time as well.    It's all very well to not like a character (we all have different tastes).    However, claiming that Kaidan is a Carth clone simply isn't an accurate reflection of the characters' personality.  

Oh, damn. Very sorry about that. You do deserve an explanation, especially after I made such an off-hand dig at Kaidan and never fully explained why. Right, so keep in mind that this is coming entirely from the perspective of male chararacters who typically romanced Bastila/Ashley, only did the Carth romance once, and never actually played femshep.
 
Much like last time, I should point out that your list is less personality-oriented and more background-oriented, where (I would agree) he is different from Carth. But if you take away Carth's revenge complex, what do you have left? That's where I feel the characters are fundamentally similar. Kaidan's a fairly mediated individual. He's loyal to his faction, but recognizes the Alliance as flawed. He tends to be very insightful regarding how other individuals/groups act and is very calm/collected when it comes to dealing them. As a general rule, he doesn't get overly emotional/harsh when dealing with others. Carth is much the same

That's why I mention that if you remove the revenge complex (and its impact on Carth's personality), you're essentially left with Kaidan, whom in my opinion has the same basic attitude, just applied more consistently. Carth never really takes out his distrust/anger on others, aside from those who are "close" to him (your PC), Bastila, etc. Using the same VA didn't really help much, because many instances where Kaidan would speak, I could imagine Carth acting the exact same way.

Modifié par Il Divo, 25 octobre 2011 - 01:19 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Bekkael wrote...
Besides which: "Two millions dead in the first day. Another seven million dead by the end of the first week." No matter if close party members die or not, you would have to have the empathy of a block of wood not to feel pain as the population of earth is murdered. I don't think we are going to have a lack of tragedy in ME3 at all.

Well said.

[jamesp81]

In reference to the OP...

People think since they buy the game they should have a say in the product. That is silly

No, that is called capitalist economics.  BW is making a product.  If I like the product, I will buy it.  If I don't, I won't.

Purchasing or not purchasing the item is the way in which the consumers voice approval or disapproval of the product.  It's no more or less complicated than that.  Just because BW are artists doesn't mean they are exempt from the same rules of economics that every other business is.

Modifié par jamesp81, 25 octobre 2011 - 01:42 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Il Divo wrote...
What you are brushing against is the debate between realism vs. escapism. I only enjoy realism in so far as it lets me enjoy a different setting/universe. Ex: Science fiction, swords n sorcery. I don't always enjoy it when a writer gives the cast a plot shield, merely because he never wants me to experience any other emotion, beyond happiness. 

I don't want escapism from my games, just distraction.  I don't want fluff, but I also don't want my distractions weighted down with constant reminders of troubles. 

As for emotions the writer wants me to experience...  no.  The writer should never want me to feel any particular emotion, never try to make me feel anything.  Doing so is the best way to disengage me from the story.  What I would say to all writers is "Tell your damn story, tell it well, and don't worry about my specific reactions." 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 25 octobre 2011 - 01:42 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Bekkael wrote...
Besides which: "Two millions dead in the first day. Another seven million dead by the end of the first week." No matter if close party members die or not, you would have to have the empathy of a block of wood not to feel pain as the population of earth is murdered. I don't think we are going to have a lack of tragedy in ME3 at all.

Well said.

Not well said. Let me quote myself from a while back:

They do matter. BUT, they are not personal. Shep suffered no personal loss(and neither did the player).
The difference between the two is vast.

And no, I felt nothing watching the trailer.

[Phaedon]

Bekkael wrote...
Besides which: "Two millions dead in the first day. Another seven million dead by the end of the first week." No matter if close party members die or not, you would have to have the empathy of a block of wood not to feel pain as the population of earth is murdered. I don't think we are going to have a lack of tragedy in ME3 at all.

You are not a regular to these forums, I understand?

EDIT: The ones that proved me correct a few seconds ago?

Modifié par Phaedon, 25 octobre 2011 - 01:43 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Bekkael wrote...
Besides which: "Two millions dead in the first day. Another seven million dead by the end of the first week." No matter if close party members die or not, you would have to have the empathy of a block of wood not to feel pain as the population of earth is murdered. I don't think we are going to have a lack of tragedy in ME3 at all.

Well said.

Not well said. Let me quote myself from a while back:

They do matter. BUT, they are not personal. Shep suffered no personal loss (and neither did the player).
The difference between the two is vast.

And no, I felt nothing watching the trailer.

Oh well. 

That whole "it has to be personal" thing?  Complete crock. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Proved what correct?

That I have no empathy if I don't bawl at a TRAILER...TELLING me how many fictional people I don't know nothing about died?

Empathy is the last thing I lack. But maybe some people are just overy emotional..or prone to overreacting.

[Il Divo]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I don't want escapism from my games, just distraction.  I don't want fluff, but I also don't want my distractions weighted down with reminders of real troubles. 

Then by that logic you shouldn't want seven million dead in the first place. What you really seem to be saying is that you don't want any heavier forms of tragedy. And in a sense, you're validating my point, as someone who wants realism. Seven million dead means much less than one dead, depending on the individual and that's exactly why I think Bioware should have the option to kill someone personal.

As for emotions the writer wants me to experience...  no.  The writer should never want me to feel any particular emotion, never try to make me feel anything.  Doing so is the best way to disengage me from the story.  What I would say to all writers is "Tell your damn story, tell it well, and don't worry about my specific reactions." 

Then I recommend you never engage in any medium, be it comedy, tragedy, action, anything. No scene in any medium, be it novel, movie, or game, is written without the writer trying to obtain some reaction to the viewer. Comedy is intended to make you laugh. Tragedy is intended to make you feel sad. Action is meant to leave you in a state of wonder. A happy ending is meant to leave you feeling good. If the writer doesn't craft these things with intentions in mind, then what exactly are they doing it all for? These stories are presented to an audience, not kept in isolation.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Il Divo wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I don't want escapism from my games, just distraction.  I don't want fluff, but I also don't want my distractions weighted down with reminders of real troubles. 

Then by that logic you shouldn't want seven million dead in the first place. What you really seem to be saying is that you don't want any heavier forms of tragedy. And in a sense, you're validating my point, as someone who wants realism. Seven million dead means much less than one dead, depending on the individual and that's exactly why I think Bioware should have the option to kill someone personal.

As for emotions the writer wants me to experience...  no.  The writer should never want me to feel any particular emotion, never try to make me feel anything.  Doing so is the best way to disengage me from the story.  What I would say to all writers is "Tell your damn story, tell it well, and don't worry about my specific reactions." 

Then I recommend you never engage in any medium, be it comedy, tragedy, action, anything. No scene in any medium, be it novel, movie, or game, is written without the writer trying to obtain some reaction to the viewer. Comedy is intended to make you laugh. Tragedy is intended to make you feel sad. Action is meant to leave you in a state of wonder. A happy ending is meant to leave you feeling good. If the writer doesn't craft these things with intentions in mind, then what exactly are they doing it all for? These stories are presented to an audience, not kept in isolation.

You tell the story to tell the damn story. 

Specifically trying to evoke reactions leads to shortcuts and formula writing and in general the halfwit way in which things are done in Hollywood.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 25 octobre 2011 - 01:54 .

[Il Divo]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Oh well. 

That whole "it has to be personal" thing?  Complete crock. 

Personal almost always means more than not-personal, precisely as their terms imply. If something is removed from you, then you're not affected in any significant way.

[Il Divo]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

You tell the story to tell the damn story. 

The story is presented to an audience. If you don't trigger any kind of reaction from them, then the story is crap or the writer is bad at writing.

Modifié par Il Divo, 25 octobre 2011 - 01:53 .

[Il Divo]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Specifically trying to evoke reactions leads to shortcuts and formula writing and in general the halfwit way in which things are done in Hollywood.

Then I'm sure you'd agree that the practice of killing nobodys (7 million deaths) is another weak tactic employed in Hollywood. Obviously it's formula writing, so instead the key should be not to let anyone, important or not, die in this obviously brutal war against machine-Gods?

Modifié par Il Divo, 25 octobre 2011 - 01:56 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Il Divo wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

You tell the story to tell the damn story. 

The story is presented to an audience. If you don't trigger any kind of reaction from them, then the story is crap or the writer is bad at writing.

A well-crafted story with interesting characters and overall imagination illicits interest from anyone worth crafting it for.  Anyone else looking to have their emotions cheaply and obviously plucked at can go watch a soap opera. 

[jamesp81]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Shouldnt the title read;
Creator Vision collides with Marketing Hype which collides with Customer Expectations?

That reminds me eerily of my job

[Shepard the Leper]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Bekkael wrote...
Besides which: "Two millions dead in the first day. Another seven million dead by the end of the first week." No matter if close party members die or not, you would have to have the empathy of a block of wood not to feel pain as the population of earth is murdered. I don't think we are going to have a lack of tragedy in ME3 at all.

Well said.

Not well said. Let me quote myself from a while back:

They do matter. BUT, they are not personal. Shep suffered no personal loss (and neither did the player).
The difference between the two is vast.

And no, I felt nothing watching the trailer.

Oh well. 

That whole "it has to be personal" thing?  Complete crock. 

Not really.

Example: The earthquake in Turkye remains unpersonal when the news only mentions X people have died. But when they show a father who's desperately looking for his daughter and begs the rescue workers to start digging at the place he thinks his daughter might be burried, things get personal.

[Il Divo]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

A well-crafted story with interesting characters and overall imagination illicits interest from anyone worth crafting it for. 

A well-crafted story with interesting characters will have me interested and concerned with the outcomes of a story, in which case the writer had something in mind in crafting each scene. Boromir's death was emotional, because the writer actually had a plan in writing it. If I didn't enjoy the character/his fate, then I wouldn't have felt any emotions.

Anyone else looking to have their emotions cheaply and obviously plucked at can go watch a soap opera. 

Good to know you've just discounted centuries worth of fiction and some of the best films of all time. In your case, I have a few Disney movies I'll recommend you, since anything beyond "happiness" seems too intense for you.

Modifié par Il Divo, 25 octobre 2011 - 02:04 .