27 réponses à ce sujet

[WhiteKnyght]

We all know Leliana is working as the Divine's right hand in Dragon Age II, and we know that Divine Justinia V is Revered Mother Dorothea and she was chosen in 9:34 Dragon.  I've noticed that Leliana has an amulet equipped called Seeker's Circle, and the Leliana's Song DLC in Origins showed that not everything happened as she told it to the Warden.

So I have to wonder, could she have been spying and doing work for the Seekers of Truth even back then? The Guardian claimed her vision was a lie when he read from her so perhaps she fabricated her vision to have an excuse to get into the Grey Wardens and keep the Chantry updated on their actions.

And that could explain how she survives being killed at the Gauntlet. Could have been a play dead technique that bards use. And perhaps it was Leliana's background actions that got Dorothea chosen to be the new Divine in the first place.

[Finnish Dragon]

I think Leliana didn´t work for Dorothea in Origins. I think Leliana wasn´t able to predict that there would be blight at Ferelden couple of before the blight started when Leliana decided to stay at Lothering. She did have her bard past but at that point it seems to be that she decided to forget that.

All of that changed when the Ferelden Royal Army was destroyed by the darkspawn in 9:30 Dragon. Soon after that battle, Leliana encountered a small group of armed "refugees" who were harassed by Loghain´s men. It is unclear whether she saw a vision but she decided to help these refugees when she heard that they were Grey Wardens. At that point, she knew that she could use skills that she learned from the past to attempt to stop the Blight.

There are many theories how Leliana survived if she was killed during the Origins. Maybe she used her skills to fool the Warden, maybe the presence of the ashes of Andraste saved her or if Wynne was present then maybe she was able to save Leliana while dying herself.

Modifié par Finnish Dragon, 24 octobre 2011 - 04:36 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Well it's awfully convenient that she was in the right place at the right time, with a near perfect reasoning for joining the Grey Warden's team.

Plus Lothering is the closest town to Ostagar, it would seem reasonable that anybody leaving there would stop in the town. That's why Loghain's men were there, looking for Grey Wardens.

You forget that she's a professional bard. They are trained to be masters of deception and can make any excuse and cover look completely legit. And when she said she wouldn't lie anymore about Marjolaine and what happened to her, she was still lying.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 24 octobre 2011 - 04:51 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There's no reason working for the Divine would make her better at playing dead than working for Marjolane. The Guardian also suggests she made up the vision in order to make herself feel important. That wouldn't be the case if she was an agent of the Divine all along.

I don't think she was working for the Divine in Origins.

[Finnish Dragon]

It is true that Leliana´s presence at Lothering is very convenient but accidents do happen. Let´s assume that it was an accident. Leliana had practically two choices: either she will help the refugees or she will help the Warden in an attempt to stop the Blight.

The first option would mean that she would either flee with other refugees or die protecting them. The second option means that she could have a chance to become a part of something bigger helping the Warden. Both options would put her life at risk but the latter option would mean doing something good forthe Ferelden, for the Chantry and for Thedas.

I don´t trust Leliana completely. I think she though that since she has spent years in the Chantry in Lothering it would mean that Marjolaine would have no interest on her and Marjolaine would be at Orlais since there is sign of her or her henchmen before they attack the Warden´s group. I don´t think Leliana expected that Marjolaine would know where she was. A renowned bard like Marjolaine probably had many other interests as well and Leliana probably though that they were more important than she was for Marjolaine.

Modifié par Finnish Dragon, 24 octobre 2011 - 05:06 .

[Huntress]

To me the other way around, leliana was betrayed and had to flee orlais, she took refuge in lothering and became Afirm, Loghain and his men's pass by Lothering saying the Gray Warden's are traitors and Killed King Cailan, the priest in lothering ask leliana to infiltrate and see how big of a Threat the warden's actually is ( if they killed King Cailan they'll probably kill Empress Celine"). at this time NOT believe the blight was real, just a large horde of monsters taking a walk on the light.

Everything change when the warden's arrive and told the templars or officers the horde was coming towards lothering in less than a week. leliana belive the blight is at full swing when the warden had the dream with the "dragon" talking/wispering to him.

[whykikyouwhy]

I don't believe that Leliana was either a Seeker or somehow working for the Divine in Origins. However, it's possible that Dorothea was working for the Divine (given that she did have access to certain documents per the Leliana's Song DLC), or was working her way up the ranks, with her sights set on that most prestigious role.

While Leliana was/is a trained bard, I think she was still being groomed and watched in DA:O. Her potential was noticed, a careful eye was kept on her, etc, and probably post battle with the archdemon is when she was approached by the Seekers (however that may work).

I'm fairly certain that she was at Lothering before the battle of Ostagar, since Bethany has memories of the young chantry sister - that implies some settling down in the village long before anyone had to escape the Blight.

[Lenimph]

I seriously doubt it because as previously noted by Whykikyouwhy Leliana was in Lothering long before anyone knew about the blight.

[ThePasserby]

Seeing as the writers themselves are flying by the seat of their pants as far as plotlines go, I doubt this matter is settled even in the writers' canon.

[Patchwork]

While not working for the Chantry itself I can imagine Leliana keeping Dorothea informed of the Warden's activities. Whether Dorothea is the Divine or simply a Reverend Mother Leliana feels she owes her a debt.

I'm inclined to believe her dream was a bid for attention because she had grown bored playing a sweet lay sister. Mentally she was ready to move on and be part of the world again. Perhaps the story was in part true. She dreamed bits of it but then embellished, as storytellers do, and it became more elaborate each time it was told.

It's not just the vision though she was also saying outlandish things intended to shock the other Chantry people. It was a reaction she wanted, to be seen again.

I wonder if the amulet is something Dorothea gave her as a parting gift. A symbol of a future Leliana could have if she chose to come back to the Chantry.

So not outright deception during DAO but there was a lot Leliana chose not to share with the Warden. She pretty much says so herself, "no lies between us, in this at least." (or something vaguely like that.)

[thats1evildude]

"Leliana, we need to stay in Lothering for several years to build up a convincing cover story. Then, at some point in the future, a major battle against the darkspawn is going to go completely ******-up. We need you to volunteer to accompany two of the survivors from that battle in defiance of the current regent of Ferelden and help them accomplish their quest. They may not allow you to come along. They may or may not kill you while hunting down one of our sacred artifacts, which for some reason we are too lazy to track down ourselves. You may have to sleep with one of them. Don't ask us how we know all this, or why we wouldn't prevent a major military disaster in the south when we had advance knowledge."

Just seems a little implausible to me.

I'm willing to buy that Leliana had have had some contact with the Seekers prior to Origins, or she might have even been in the process of joining their ranks. But actively working for them? That requires the Seekers to be practically omniscient, and if they are, why do they have such trouble tracking down Hawke?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 24 octobre 2011 - 08:04 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I don't think she was working for the Divine in Origins.

Well technically, Dorothea didn't become Divine till four years after Origins.

It's possible Leliana helped her achieve that goal.

thats1evildude wrote...

"Leliana, we need to stay in
Lothering for several years to build up a convincing cover story. Then,
att some point in the future, a major battle against the darkspawn is
going to go completely ******-up. We need you to volunteer to accompany
two of the survivors from that battle in defiance of the current regent
of Ferelden and help them accomplish their quest. They may not allow you
to come along. They may or may not kill you while hunting down one of
our sacred artifacts, which for some reason we are too lazy to track
down ourselves. You may have to sleep with one of them. Don't ask us how
we know all this, or why we wouldn't prevent a major military disaster
in the south when we had advance knowledge."

Just seems a little implausible to me.

I'm
willing to buy that Leliana had have had some contact with the Seekers
prior to Origins, or she might have even been in the process of joining
their ranks. But actively working for them? That requires the Seekers to
be practically omniscient, and if they are, why do they have such
trouble tracking down Hawke?

Or she hasn't been in Lothering as long as she says. No one else said two years except for her, if you noticed.

She
might have left Lothering with Dorothea, was taught about the Maker and
decided to join the Seekers and use her skills to help Dorothea, then when darkspawn started appearing in Ferelden, was sent back to Lothering to observe and assist if necessary.

Think
about it, if she spent two years in Lothering, wouldn't Hawke(who lived
there for eight years before the Blight came) have recognized her from
the Lothering Chantry when they meet, instead of just recognizing the
name as the Warden's companion? Dialogue shows that the Hawkes knew of
her, but didn't remember her well enough to recognize her. Meaning more
than likely she hadn't been there long.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 24 octobre 2011 - 06:47 .

[bleetman]

Anyone with the ability to construct and maintain an apparently flawless cover story for who-knows-how-many-years at a time, as well as manipulating the actions and feelings of a group of really quite close knit individuals for as long as Dragon Age Origins lasts (as in, around a year), up to and including the point where one of them falls in love with them is probably not going to go around with an insignia of their particular Chantry spy organization around their necks. That's the sort of thing they cover in day one of spy training.

Or so I hear.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Dialogue shows that the Hawkes knew of her, but didn't remember her well enough to recognize her. Meaning more than likely she hadn't been there long.

Y'know, if I was an apostate, my sister was an apostate and father was as well, I'd probably give the Chantry building a wide bearth, myself. Red hair and an orlesian accent might stand out in somewhere like Lothering, sure, but I can't imagine they'd be on a first name basis just because they lived in the same village.

Besides, Leliana wasn't even a sister, technically. She was a lay sister. She didn't hold sermons. To anyone outside of the Chantry itself, I'd imagine she was just someone who was 'around'.

Modifié par bleetman, 24 octobre 2011 - 06:56 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Or she hasn't been in Lothering as long as she says. No one else said two years except for her, if you noticed.

She
might have left Lothering with Dorothea, was taught about the Maker and
decided to join the Seekers and use her skills to help Dorothea, then when darkspawn started appearing in Ferelden, was sent back to Lothering to observe and assist if necessary.

Think
about it, if she spent two years in Lothering, wouldn't Hawke(who lived
there for eight years before the Blight came) have recognized her from
the Lothering Chantry when they meet, instead of just recognizing the
name as the Warden's companion? Dialogue shows that the Hawkes knew of
her, but didn't remember her well enough to recognize her. Meaning more
than likely she hadn't been there long.

Aveline and Bethany know her.

[thats1evildude]

bleetman wrote...

Anyone with the ability to construct and
maintain an apparently flawless cover story for
who-knows-how-many-years at a time, as well as manipulating the actions
and feelings of a group of really quite close knit individuals for as
long as Dragon Age Origins lasts (as in, around a year), up to and including the point where one of them falls in love with them
is probably not going to go around with an insignia of their particular
Chantry spy organization around their necks. That's the sort of thing
they cover in day one of spy training.

Or so I hear.

Good point.

bleetman wrote...

Y'know, if I was an apostate, my sister was an apostate and father was as well, I'd probably give the Chantry building a wide berth, myself. Red hair and an orlesian accent might stand out in somewhere like Lothering, sure, but I can't imagine they'd be on a first name basis just because they lived in the same village.

In that, you're mistaken, I'm afraid. Bethany knew Leliana. If you bring her into the Kirkwall Chantry, she will comment:

"I miss the Chantry in Lothering. Sister Leliana told the best stories."

Aveline knew of Leliana, but didn't know her personally. Just as a "red-headed trickster".

Modifié par thats1evildude, 24 octobre 2011 - 07:10 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Hawke not immediately recognizing Leliana may just speak to Hawke's affiliation with the chantry- which seems to be little. Perhaps (s)he simply didn't spend a lot of time there, whereas Bethany may have visited or helped out in some fashion (perhaps rounding the village children up for stories and cookies). Same goes with Aveline - by being the wife of a templar, she probably had more exposure to the folks following the faith.

Maybe Hawke's just not the church-going type.

[jlb524]

Carver also mentions having the hots for Leliana in MotA, though he doesn't refer to her by name.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Maybe Hawke's just not the church-going type.

My Hawke was usually busy with fun things...like sex.

[Mr.House]

Fiona Hawke was in the tavern most of the time, she hardly went to the Lothering chantry..

[thats1evildude]

Garrett Hawke was too busy fighting giant spiders. Couldn't swing a dead cat in Lothering without hitting a giant spider.

jlb524 wrote...

Carver also mentions having the hots for Leliana in MotA, though he doesn't refer to her by name.

Maker's Breath. I swear, that kid needs a leash.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 24 octobre 2011 - 08:16 .

[Gervaise]

Does anyone know which Chantry Alistair was attached to? May be Dorothea/Chantry in Orlais had heard a rumour about Alistair's parentage and sent Lelianna to try and locate him. We know that Caillan was in correspondence with Celene and thinking of throwing over Anora, owing to the lack of an heir. It's perfectly possible that Dorothea might have been a confidente to Celene over this and they wanted to check for any flaws in a possible marriage plan. Whilst Alistair may not have seen Lelianna, it's possible she may have noticed him. When the Grey Wardens arrived in the village she realised it was the same person she had been tasked with watching.

It seems to make more sense that Lelianna was sent into Ferelden in connection with the politics between the two nations than in response to the Blight. Meanwhile Majorlaine (unbeknown to Lelianna), may have also been sent by Celene, probably with a view to getting rid of Anora, just in case Cailan got cold feet over ditching her. Plans went a bit ary when Loghain got rid of Cailan.

[dsl08002]

I dont think so because the information you get in Leliana song says that she work as a bard in then she goes to the chantry,

but if you play the Circle of magi mission in DAO you meet leliana and she say in the dialouge that she left the chantry because a disagreemant with the revered mother.

But she return to the chantry in DAA, you will get a letter from a romanced leliana that says that. She probably gets an invatation to return to the seekers after the actions by helping the warden by stopping the blight.

[Huntress]

Leliana wasn't a seeker (was a bard), the amulet was probably given after she become afirm, ( just like the warden get one from Alistair for joining the order) after all that is when she meets the warden's. I think she was keeping the priest from Lothering informed of everything the warden did, after she leave the warden side, she was asked to go to orlais and there she probably commit herself to the chantry and becomes a seeker.

[Big I]

Two reasons I think Leliana wasn't working for the Chantry in DA:O or before then. Firstly because she comes across as actually believing in her vision and her interpretation of the Chant. Secondly because if Leliana was a bard for the Chantry I'd expect Marjorlane to have known about it.

[Nerdage]

I could happily believe the chantry may have sleeper agents dotted around the place who, after the news of the Grey Warden's "betrayal" at Ostagar, may have been on the look-out for wardens to try and assess their guilt.

At a stretch I could believe that Leliana was such an agent (though not necessarily a seeker), though what an agent would be doing for so long in such a pissant town I don't know. I guess it is on the Imperial Highway, might make it worth keeping an eye on.

I can't believe that Leliana's association with the warden is other than what she says, if only because if "the maker told me to" was the best cover story she could come up with she shouldn't be an agent in the first place. If she was working for the chantry but they didn't tell her to accompany the warden I imagine she would've regardless just to serve the greater good in fighting the blight.

Aside from which, if you believe the guardian when he claims she's lying then you should also believe him when he claims the reason she lied about it was for the attention, if she was only lying about it to get into the warden's company he probably would've busted her on that.

My own interpretation of what the guardian says is he's just prodding at her doubts as a test, he doesn't necessarily know she is lying, he's just interested in her reaction. It seems odd to me that other companions got personal "Do you feel..?" type questions, but come Leliana's turn he just outright accuses her of lying. I suspect that's because if he posed the question as "Do you really believe in your vision?" she would've just said "yes", but the subtext of what he actually said seemed to be "You already have doubts, are you willing to defend your faith regardless?", especially since faith seems to be a theme in the gauntlet.

That's just my theory, though. It's not based on much..


Wow, didn't feel like that much text when I wrote it..

Modifié par nerdage, 24 octobre 2011 - 11:29 .