210 réponses à ce sujet

[FedericoV]

Sylvius the Mad wrote... Except, asymmetrical mechanics show that the rules clearly don't work
like in real life.  And yet none of the characters seem to notice.

No rule system works like real life yet no one seem to notice if the experience is fun and rewarding.

Hawke is, apparently, one of the 10 most powerful beings in the world.  So is Varric.  So is Merrill.  And yet the narrative doesn't acknowledge this at all.

I'm not saying that DA2 do things perfectly. Far from it. But you seem to forget that the whole narrative is told and framed. It's allready a tale, it does not need to aknowledge everything and Varric/Cassandra insists a lot on Hawke's awesomness.

It's not an olive branch if it directly attacks my core position.

Attack? How so? Sorry if that's the impression I've given. But I said that it's a different position because we search different things in Bioware games. We have different priorities and different ideas on how to improve their games. I can't possibly be more relativistic :innocent:.

Modifié par FedericoV, 26 octobre 2011 - 07:55 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

DuskWarden wrote...

The obvious solution is a non voiced PC, but this isn't going to happen.

If they would just let us disable the voice, that would solve a great many problems.

And regarding player agency, its situations like with Petrice - I thought she was a total cow right from the beginning, and my character wanted to kill her; but instead Hawke agrees to work with her? If you're going to make a character so easily hateable, you shouldn't force us to work with them.

The only way I could get through that was to assume that Varric was just lying about what had happened, but if the things I'm doing don't represent actual events, why should I care about them at all?

DA2 appears to want to tell me a story, and all it asks me is to refine the details of the story, but without granting me any meaningful control of the characters in that story.  So I'm just not allowed to roleplay at all - I'm really just listening to Varric talk.

It might make a good story, but it makes a lousy game.

[mesmerizedish]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If they would just let us disable the voice, that would solve a great many problems.

I can't recall... what's wrong with muting it and turning on subtitles?

[Herr Uhl]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If they would just let us disable the voice, that would solve a great many problems.

I can't recall... what's wrong with muting it and turning on subtitles?

Can you mute the PC without muting the rest of the game?

[Sir JK]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Except, asymmetrical mechanics show that the rules clearly don't work like in real life.  And yet none of the characters seem to notice.

Hawke is, apparently, one of the 10 most powerful beings in the world.  So is Varric.  So is Merrill.  And yet the narrative doesn't acknowledge this at all.

Ah, yes. I was explaining how the line of reasoning works in a narrative setting with unexplained rules. Not in the case of DA2 specifically. DA2 is not that kind of rpg.

The logic in DA2 only works if you accept the assumption that gameplay and narrative are detached from one another. That there's a combat game and a narrative game, and they only superificially overlap.

[mesmerizedish]

Herr Uhl wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If they would just let us disable the voice, that would solve a great many problems.

I can't recall... what's wrong with muting it and turning on subtitles?

Can you mute the PC without muting the rest of the game?

Well, you can (I think) mute all the VO without muting everything else.

[mesmerizedish]

Sir JK wrote...

The logic in DA2 only works if you accept the assumption that gameplay and narrative are detached from one another. That there's a combat game and a narrative game, and they only superificially overlap.

Sylvius does not accept that.

I'm not sure I do either.

[jlb524]

I've held that assumption in every RPG I play.

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Well, you can (I think) mute all the VO without muting everything else.

I think so...you can turn down the volume on VO and leave everything else in-tact (sound effects/music/etc.)

Modifié par jlb524, 26 octobre 2011 - 08:04 .

[n2nw]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
DA2 appears to want to tell me a story, and all it asks me is to refine the details of the story, but without granting me any meaningful control of the characters in that story.  So I'm just not allowed to roleplay at all - I'm really just listening to Varric talk.

It might make a good story, but it makes a lousy game.

Totally agree.  I know a game is based on a story and you're just living it out, but I felt more like a passenger and less like the driver in DA2. 

[Sir JK]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Sylvius does not accept that.

I'm not sure I do either.

Well... as long as you aim at any form of quasi-realistic narrative (knife to the gut is fatal and that sort of thing), some gameplay and narrative segregation is necessary. Unless you make the gameplay hyper-realistic. But it certainly can be hidden better...

And I do agree that they're perhaps going the wrong way in this matter...

[Mr.House]

n2nw wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
DA2 appears to want to tell me a story, and all it asks me is to refine the details of the story, but without granting me any meaningful control of the characters in that story.  So I'm just not allowed to roleplay at all - I'm really just listening to Varric talk.

It might make a good story, but it makes a lousy game.

Totally agree.  I know a game is based on a story and you're just living it out, but I felt more like a passenger and less like the driver in DA2. 

You where railroaded to do many things that could be OOC for a Warden, like a Dalish elf searching the Urn of scared ashes.

[Fallstar]

Also, I don't understand why we have +integer values for elemental resistances. A percentage like in Origins tell you far more information, i.e. OK, so my ring will reduce all fire damage by 20% thats good. Versus, OK, so my ring gives me +600 fire resist. How strong of an effect actually is this???
And some stats are downright misleading, Arelexx and SuicidalBaby and that bunch figured out that +X% items give diminishing returns when stacked, for example a staff that gives +40% fire damage and an amulet that gives +25% fire damage, when combined, does not give a 1*1.4*1.25 modifier of 1.75 or +75% fire damage as it should. Rather, it gives less than that, with the effect getting worse the more you stack the damage. This is what lead to equipping the rings and amulets which boost the 'rogue' stats being far more effective than any of the equivalent items for mages, on a mage character.

These kind of things are relatively minor, but they all add up to what Sylvius said about DA:2 feeling somewhat unpolished. I think a pdf of the entire ruleset would have been (and still would be) a very useful thing to have available to us.

[adneate]

Mr.House wrote...
You where railroaded to do many things that could be OOC for a Warden, like a Dalish elf searching the Urn of scared ashes.

Which was why I never played a Dalish Elf past Lothering, DA2 was that "Why do I care?" feeling for 30 hours.

[Xilizhra]

The whole game only makes sense if you play a pro-Templar ****, and that makes me mad.

Actually, given Hawke's background and the framing device, playing pro-templar makes no sense whatsoever.

[tmp7704]

Xilizhra wrote...
Actually, given Hawke's background and the framing device, playing pro-templar makes no sense whatsoever.

It can make sense similarly how it can make sense for Carver. A Hawke who isn't mage himself doesn't have to be all lovey-dovey about mages, since he/she can view magic as the source of trouble for their entire family and little else.

The whole disappearance of pro-templar Hawke at the end on the other hand, that's one more shortcoming of the inflexible structure, i think.

Modifié par tmp7704, 26 octobre 2011 - 08:32 .

[tmp7704]

Mr.House wrote...

You where railroaded to do many things that could be OOC for a Warden, like a Dalish elf searching the Urn of scared ashes.

Why would it be OOC for dalish elf to search for urn with ashes of the very person who made the Dales exist in the first place?

[Mr.House]

tmp7704 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

You where railroaded to do many things that could be OOC for a Warden, like a Dalish elf searching the Urn of scared ashes.

Why would it be OOC for dalish elf to search for urn with ashes of the very person who made the Dales exist in the first place?

Why should a Dalish go on a wild goose chase on a relic part of a religion she does not beleive in with little hope it will heal Eamon? My Dalish hates the Chantry, she does not beleive in it at all so her going on a journey is OOC for her.

[upsettingshorts]

Xilizhra wrote...

The whole game only makes sense if you play a pro-Templar ****, and that makes me mad.

Actually, given Hawke's background and the framing device, playing pro-templar makes no sense whatsoever.

Playing pro-Templar from the start, perhaps not.  But choosing the Templar ending?  Yeah, that's easily justifiable.

[tmp7704]

Mr.House wrote...

Why should a Dalish go on a wild goose chase on a relic part of a religion she does not beleive in with little hope it will heal Eamon?

Because Andraste is far more than just part of some religion, and a major figure in the history of the Dalish?

[Mr.House]

tmp7704 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Why should a Dalish go on a wild goose chase on a relic part of a religion she does not beleive in with little hope it will heal Eamon?

Because Andraste is far more than just part of some religion, and a major figure in the history of the Dalish?

True, but the "her ashes are magical and can heal you." is a Chantry myth, something my Dalish or Dwarf does not beleive in.

[Apollo Starflare]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The whole game only makes sense if you play a pro-Templar ****, and that makes me mad.

Actually, given Hawke's background and the framing device, playing pro-templar makes no sense whatsoever.

Playing pro-Templar from the start, perhaps not.  But choosing the Templar ending?  Yeah, that's easily justifiable.

Yeah, if anything the game 'makes the most sense' with Hawke gradually shifting from pro-mage to siding with the Templars over the course of the game. In my opinion of course, I know how wonderfully controversial that kettle of fish is.

[tmp7704]

Mr.House wrote...

True, but the "her ashes are magical and can heal you." is a Chantry myth, something my Dalish or Dwarf does not beleive in.

But isn't it pretty foolish to disbelieve something based on nothing but a fact it's part of another religion? After all, there's no faction in Thedas which has a monopoly when it comes to 'truth' in that regard -- the Old Gods aren't part of the Dalish or dwarf beliefs too, but they certainly appear real enough to the point where your whole quest revolves around trying to get rid of one.

[upsettingshorts]

tmp7704 wrote...

But isn't it pretty foolish to disbelieve something based on nothing but a fact it's part of another religion?

In a word:  No.

[Zjarcal]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The whole game only makes sense if you play a pro-Templar ****, and that makes me mad.

Actually, given Hawke's background and the framing device, playing pro-templar makes no sense whatsoever.

Playing pro-Templar from the start, perhaps not.  But choosing the Templar ending?  Yeah, that's easily justifiable.

Yeah, if anything the game 'makes the most sense' with Hawke gradually shifting from pro-mage to siding with the Templars over the course of the game. In my opinion of course, I know how wonderfully controversial that kettle of fish is.

I hate to agree with this to a small extent.

My current run, while not pro-Templar (will still side with the mages at the end) has been my most Templar friendly run, so to speak, and I'm glad that by sending Grace to the Circle, I have eliminated one huge facepalm moment from act 3. By doing that she will be entirely justified to be pissed off at Hawke and I won't be scratching my head at the stupidity of her actions otherwise.

But then again there are also elements about siding with the Templars that "dont make much sense" either to me, so I guess it's somewhat 50/50 really.

[MerinTB]

Mr.House wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
You where railroaded to do many things that could be OOC for a Warden, like a Dalish elf searching the Urn of scared ashes.

Why would it be OOC for dalish elf to search for urn with ashes of the very person who made the Dales exist in the first place?

Why should a Dalish go on a wild goose chase on a relic part of a religion she does not beleive in with little hope it will heal Eamon? My Dalish hates the Chantry, she does not beleive in it at all so her going on a journey is OOC for her.

To get the support of Arl Eamon you need the Sacred Ashes.  If you brought the Urn back and nothing happened, you could say you did your best and maybe the next in commaned would honor the treaties or help Alistair or whatever.

You CAN defile the Ashes, too, if you "disbelieve."

But here's the thing about fantasy settings -
there's clearly magic.  Clearly there are gods (if you are Dalish and believe in your set instead of the Maker, even.)  Why COULDN'T the ashes be possible in such a setting?  The Keepers do powerfully magical things... you know demons are real.
Straight-off believing that it is unlikely the ashes could work is abnormal for the setting.  One could even describe your character as insane for not believing in the power of magic and gods, even gods you don't worship.

If you are arguing that someone your character denies all the evidence in front of you of magic, gods, etc., in the Thedas setting... well, okay, you are role-playing your own version of a flat-earther.  Continue to disbelieve all the demons and magic coming at you to your own character's peril. :innocent: