210 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
(OP)

I agree with most you wrote but there is one thing. It's Bioware and a Bioware game. They are different to other games for good reasons (I assume). So some things you will never see in a Bioware game. Like real exploration and open world. It doesn't fit with their story telling style with cutscenes, etc. I personally can accept it because exploration is not necessarily an RPG feature (for me). Even though it is nice.
 
I can deal with not having the choice to move where I want and being led on a certain path required for the main storyline. What bothered me more is, what you also said, that the character is railroaded. I don't even mind that I am not Hawke, actually I always see the protagonist like the star in a movie. So if Hawke does have an own personality and acts on it out of my control it doesn't matter to me either. It bothers me though if you, as a player, never get to make any noteworthy decisions. I don't really think that single player RPGs are a proper platform for roleplaying, despite the name of the genre. For real creative roleplay you need real people. So if anywhere you can do it in an MMORPG which supports roleplaying at least a bit, or in a chatroom, or ... not in a computer (i.e. LARPs). I always have the feeling you just expect too much from a video game.

So while your critizism is valid, for once because you have your right of opinion and also because you're right about many things, your critizism in general would probably more constructive if you reduced it on the things that can be changed ... or done. I think there is a reason why Bethesda/Obsidian do some things right and neglect others and Bioware do other things right and neglect some things Bethesda/Obsidian does right, it is because it's just not possible to combine them in one game. So they make a choice. Bioware games are the way they are because of these choices they made. Like it or not personally, many people like Bioware for the way they make their games.

What bothered me with DA2 was that they failed their own style. It was just too little, and not as polished as I am used to from Bioware.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 26 octobre 2011 - 09:17 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

tmp7704 wrote...
But isn't it pretty foolish to disbelieve something based on nothing but a fact it's part of another religion?

Only Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God.  Does that mean other religions are foolish for not believing the same?

[Beerfish]

I'm actually shocked that Sylvanus plays BioWare games because the meat and potatoes of their games goes totally against what he thinks is important, he should know better. Their formula has not changed much over the life of the company. I would be willing to bet that Sylvanus's fav game of this genre is Icewind Dale.

[tmp7704]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

But isn't it pretty foolish to disbelieve something based on nothing but a fact it's part of another religion?

In a word:  No.

In a word: Yes.

now that was totally useful exchange of opinions.

[TEWR]

RinjiRenee wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
But isn't it pretty foolish to disbelieve something based on nothing but a fact it's part of another religion?

Only Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God.  Does that mean other religions are foolish for not believing the same?

popping in for a moment to say nope. Frankly I don't put much stock in one religion being more "true" than the rest. I like to think all religions are the same but with different aspects.

[tmp7704]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Only Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God.  Does that mean other religions are foolish for not believing the same?

The fact there's no single religion on earth which can demonstrate that anything they choose to worship/believe actually exists makes it a poor analogy.

Again: the Tevinter folks worshipped the Old Gods. Does it mean a Dalish, or a dwarf or  an Andrastean is correct when they choose to disbelieve the existence of the Old Gods, because they aren't part of their religion?

[AlexXIV]

tmp7704 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

True, but the "her ashes are magical and can heal you." is a Chantry myth, something my Dalish or Dwarf does not beleive in.

But isn't it pretty foolish to disbelieve something based on nothing but a fact it's part of another religion? After all, there's no faction in Thedas which has a monopoly when it comes to 'truth' in that regard -- the Old Gods aren't part of the Dalish or dwarf beliefs too, but they certainly appear real enough to the point where your whole quest revolves around trying to get rid of one.

Actually it's pretty foolish. I mean you hike on a mountain because of a myth. Just as foolish as the Knights of Arthurian legends to search for the grail. It's a fantasy setting/world, so such things make more sense there than they would make in our world. We have to assume the Warden believed in it enough to think it is worth the trouble. Basically Sten has the more rational view on it, but he is proven wrong. Just because.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 26 octobre 2011 - 09:27 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

tmp7704 wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Only Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God.  Does that mean other religions are foolish for not believing the same?

The fact there's no single religion on earth which can demonstrate that anything they choose to worship/believe actually exists makes it a poor analogy.

Again: the Tevinter folks worshipped the Old Gods. Does it mean a Dalish, or a dwarf or  an Andrastean is correct when they choose to disbelieve the existence of the Old Gods, because they aren't part of their religion?

I remember Alistair saying something to the effect of  "I'm not sure if they were gods but they are dragons." They ARE dragons, and they were worshipped by the Tevinter as gods, but does that mean that the other religions have to acknowledge them as such?

No.  And I'm pretty sure in Andrastian faith, the Maker sealed the "false gods" (aka the Old Gods of Tevinter belief) away.  They never disbelieved in their existence.  They just disbelieved that they were actual gods.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 26 octobre 2011 - 09:30 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sir JK wrote...

The logic in DA2 only works if you accept the assumption that gameplay and narrative are detached from one another.

That can't ever be true.  It's a logically unsustainable position.

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

I can't recall... what's wrong with muting it and turning on subtitles?

The subtitles are part of the problem, because they differ from my intent when selecting the paraphrase.

The only way to salvage DA2's roleplaying component, I think, would be to allow us to mute the PC and disable the subtitles, thus removing any explicit indication that the player's understanding of the paraphrase was incorrect.

If I mute the voices in DA2 without turning the subtitles on, then I can't follow any of the conversations at all.

[TEWR]

tmp7704 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

True, but the "her ashes are magical and can heal you." is a Chantry myth, something my Dalish or Dwarf does not beleive in.

But isn't it pretty foolish to disbelieve something based on nothing but a fact it's part of another religion? After all, there's no faction in Thedas which has a monopoly when it comes to 'truth' in that regard -- the Old Gods aren't part of the Dalish or dwarf beliefs too, but they certainly appear real enough to the point where your whole quest revolves around trying to get rid of one.

A person can acknowledge Andraste as being real but to go off on a search for a myth -- that is a bunch of healing Ashes -- as your last bastion of hope is hard for someone like a Dalish or a Dwarf to do. Especially a pragmatic and politically savvy Dwarf.
 
Now, one could certainly go looking for Brother Genitivi to see if maybe there actually is something to it and then go from there, but to say "I'll go look for a trashcan full of magical dirt!" is odd if you don't actually believe it's magical at that point in time.

Beliefs differ and one can be skeptical of a bunch of ashes of one Thedosian -- who was possibly a mage -- being magical when the rest aren't, especially those of people who are the voice of the Maker (the Divines). She's described as being the bride of the Maker, but not everyone even believes in the Maker. If one doesn't believe in the Maker, then they can't believe she was ever the bride of the Maker.

I think the problem is that DAO assumes you believe the Urn is indeed real and can heal Arl Eamon when you have no clue if any of that is fact. Brother Genitivi's supposed research points to it being true, but the player doesn't know if his research is even accurate.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 octobre 2011 - 09:37 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sir JK wrote...

Well... as long as you aim at any form of quasi-realistic narrative (knife to the gut is fatal and that sort of thing), some gameplay and narrative segregation is necessary. Unless you make the gameplay hyper-realistic. But it certainly can be hidden better...

No, you just need to write the narrative to conform to the rules that govern the gameplay mechanics.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 26 octobre 2011 - 09:32 .

[AlexXIV]

RinjiRenee wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Only Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God.  Does that mean other religions are foolish for not believing the same?

The fact there's no single religion on earth which can demonstrate that anything they choose to worship/believe actually exists makes it a poor analogy.

Again: the Tevinter folks worshipped the Old Gods. Does it mean a Dalish, or a dwarf or  an Andrastean is correct when they choose to disbelieve the existence of the Old Gods, because they aren't part of their religion?

I remember Alistair saying something to the effect of  "I'm not sure if they were gods but they are dragons." They ARE dragons, and they were worshipped by the Tevinter as gods, but does that mean that the other religions have to acknowledge them as such?

No.  And I'm pretty sure in Andrastian faith, the Maker sealed the "false gods" (aka the Old Gods of Tevinter belief) away.  They never disbelieved in their existence.  They just disbelieved that they were actual gods.

The Old Gods looked like dragons. So likely they were powerful dragons, or they just liked to transform into dragons like Flemeth, who knows. All Alistair knows is what everyone knows, they look like dragons. Good thing about Alistair is that he is honest about things he knows, and things he believes. Because alot of people seem to have trouble to make this distinction.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Mr.House wrote...

Why should a Dalish go on a wild goose chase on a relic part of a religion she does not beleive in with little hope it will heal Eamon?

Because it would win the loyalty of Eamon's heirs.  You might know that success is impossible, but they don't, so that you tried to help them counts for a lot.

[upsettingshorts]

A theological debate is all well and good, but when the fate of the realm is on the line I am perfectly justified in saying going off on a crusade - one that many knights with quite a head start on you have failed completely in - is, depending on who your Warden is, totally bonkers.

Certainly not any more bonkers than responding to a summons from someone who amounts to the military governor of the city in which you reside, whether you agree with her ideologically or not.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 26 octobre 2011 - 09:39 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlexXIV wrote...

I agree with most you wrote but there is one thing. It's Bioware and a Bioware game. They are different to other games for good reasons (I assume). So some things you will never see in a Bioware game. Like real exploration and open world.

Many BioWare games have offered some exploration.  Almost all of them offer more exploration than DA2 does.  DAO and KotOR offer more exploration than DA2.  NWN and the BG games offered quite a lot of exploration.

As for a more open world, that has also occurred in some BioWare games.  We all know that BG had an open world (though BG2 did not), and the Uncharted Worlds in ME were open, both in terms of exploring them and being able to visit them "just because".

I don't really think that single player RPGs are a proper platform for roleplaying, despite the name of the genre. For real creative roleplay you need real people. So if anywhere you can do it in an MMORPG which supports roleplaying at least a bit, or in a chatroom, or ... not in a computer (i.e. LARPs). I always have the feeling you just expect too much from a video game.

The point of a CRPG is to reproduce the experience of a tabletop RPG without the need for other people.

The media you suggest all require other people.

[AlexXIV]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Why should a Dalish go on a wild goose chase on a relic part of a religion she does not beleive in with little hope it will heal Eamon?

Because it would win the loyalty of Eamon's heirs.  You might know that success is impossible, but they don't, so that you tried to help them counts for a lot.

Even though remains to dispute if you are not just wasting time crawling on that mountain while a Blight claws on the land and eats people and other living things while you go on a scavanger hunt after a myth.

[tmp7704]

RinjiRenee wrote...

I remember Alistair saying something to the effect of  "I'm not sure if they were gods but they are dragons." They ARE dragons, and they were worshipped by the Tevinter as gods, but does that mean that the other religions have to acknowledge them as such?

I think that boils down to interpretation of what exactly makes the being a god, in the eyes of believers. But that is a subject far more vague than whether something happens to heal people.

Or to put it differently -- the Chantry may choose to claim the Old Gods were 'false gods'. But it doesn't try to deny the 'myth' these beings did exist and taught people magic.

[TEWR]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

A theological debate is all well and good, but when the fate of the realm is on the line I am perfectly justified in saying going off on a crusade - one that many knights with quite a head start on you have failed completely in - is, depending on who your Warden is, totally bonkers.

Certainly not any more bonkers than responding to a summons from someone who amounts to the military governor of the city in which you reside, whether you agree with her ideologically or not.

Agreed.


Plus the knight in Lothering seems to also think that it's nothing more than a myth from all the research he's done. Though he does say he'll check out Brother Genitivi, but nevertheless the player has already met one person who doesn't believe it's true.

[AlexXIV]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I agree with most you wrote but there is one thing. It's Bioware and a Bioware game. They are different to other games for good reasons (I assume). So some things you will never see in a Bioware game. Like real exploration and open world.

Many BioWare games have offered some exploration.  Almost all of them offer more exploration than DA2 does.  DAO and KotOR offer more exploration than DA2.  NWN and the BG games offered quite a lot of exploration.

As for a more open world, that has also occurred in some BioWare games.  We all know that BG had an open world (though BG2 did not), and the Uncharted Worlds in ME were open, both in terms of exploring them and being able to visit them "just because".

I don't really think that single player RPGs are a proper platform for roleplaying, despite the name of the genre. For real creative roleplay you need real people. So if anywhere you can do it in an MMORPG which supports roleplaying at least a bit, or in a chatroom, or ... not in a computer (i.e. LARPs). I always have the feeling you just expect too much from a video game.

The point of a CRPG is to reproduce the experience of a tabletop RPG without the need for other people.

The media you suggest all require other people.

Forget BG, it was 2D. The ressources to create a game of the size of BG in a 'modern' video game would blow not only the budget, but probably also the hardware possibilites. Yes, KotOR had a bit of exploration but that's about all we can have from Bioware. It's not like in Fallout where you can go almost everywhere. You can't jump in Bioware games, for example over tables, or over walls, etc. Their map is pretty much restricted to one path with a couple of dead ends added to it to make it seem more.

The point isn't to reproduce tabletop RPG experience. It may be based or inspired by tabletops but that's it.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 26 octobre 2011 - 09:48 .

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

A person can acknowledge Andraste as being real but to go off on a search for a myth -- that is a bunch of healing Ashes -- as your last bastion of hope is hard for someone like a Dalish or a Dwarf to do. Especially a pragmatic and politically savvy Dwarf.
 
Now, one could certainly go looking for Brother Genitivi to see if maybe there actually is something to it and then go from there, but to say "I'll go look for a trashcan full of magical dirt!" is odd if you don't actually believe it's magical at that point in time.

The game does allow you to actually bring that up -- if you question the existence of the Urn when you speak with Isolde, she insists she isn't just grasping at straws, but there's some leads to support it which brother Genitivi discovered on Andraste's Birth Rock (that's why she points you to Genitivi in the first place, because he's been researching the subject supposedly with some results)

And since the PC isn't voiced, you can interpret your own line "I will see if I can find this relic" as highly skeptical, something that could be said by someone who intends to do what you describe -- go check with Genitivi if there's any reasons to follow this up, without planning already to do anything more than that.

[TEWR]

tmp7704 wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

I remember Alistair saying something to the effect of  "I'm not sure if they were gods but they are dragons." They ARE dragons, and they were worshipped by the Tevinter as gods, but does that mean that the other religions have to acknowledge them as such?

I think that boils down to interpretation of what exactly makes the being a god, in the eyes of believers. But that is a subject far more vague than whether something happens to heal people.

Or to put it differently -- the Chantry may choose to claim the Old Gods were 'false gods'. But it doesn't try to deny the 'myth' these beings did exist and taught people magic.

I seem to remember David Gaider talking about the Old Gods being actual Gods that were outside the purview of the Maker's plan. The Tevinter Imperium apparently knew about the Maker -- though they called him a different name -- but worshipped the Old Gods.

Who came first is really unknown in that sense and one might think the Old Gods are actually on par with that of the Maker.

http://social.biowar.../index/508455/3

There's a lot of info in that thread that I can't even begin to type out

[TEWR]

tmp7704 wrote...


The game does allow you to actually bring that up -- if you question the existence of the Urn when you speak with Isolde, she insists she isn't just grasping at straws, but there's some leads to support it which brother Genitivi discovered on Andraste's Birth Rock (that's why she points you to Genitivi in the first place, because he's been researching the subject supposedly with some results)

And since the PC isn't voiced, you can interpret your own line "I will see if I can find this relic" as highly skeptical, something that could be said by someone who intends to do what you describe -- go check with Genitivi if there's any reasons to follow this up, without planning already to do anything more than that.

Thing is, a tone of skepticism is very clear and a person would pick up on it. Isolde and Teagan act like you're believing it.

This to me is something that makes the "interpret the line's tone how you wish" argument invalid because it doesn't always apply. The PC can't say "No I meant this" save for the one instance with Voldrik Glavonak at Vigil's Keep.

Of course, I'm a new player to this part of the RPG field, so maybe I'm missing something I should be realizing.

edit: by no means though am I asking for the player to actually be able to do this all the time. That would be absurd. I'm just saying that the "this was my tone" argument doesn't fly with me.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 octobre 2011 - 09:57 .

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Thing is, a tone of skepticism is very clear and a person would pick up on it. Isolde and Teagan act like you're believing it.

No, if you got down that particular branch, it goes like this:

PC: I will see if I can find this relic.
Teagan: No one else can. Even if I wished to do it myself, I cannot abandon Redcliffe to its own devices.
Teagan: Perhaps you could seek out the brother's home in Denerim and see if any clues remain on his whereabouts. It is the only place to begin the search, I think.
Teagan: I must go to the hall and begin rebuilding. I wish you luck, and may the Maker go with you.
(end)

there's nothing here that'd openly suggest Teagan thinks you believe in the Urn. He only believes that you'll give it a try to find it, which is what you declare.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlexXIV wrote...

Even though remains to dispute if you are not just wasting time crawling on that mountain while a Blight claws on the land and eats people and other living things while you go on a scavanger hunt after a myth.

I'll certainly agree that DAO should have allowed you to face the Archdemon without the help of all of your allies.

AlexXIV wrote...

Forget BG, it was 2D. The ressources to create a game of the size of BG in a 'modern' video game would blow not only the budget, but probably also the hardware possibilites.

No.  If there's a cost associated with the switch to 3D, that's something worth discussing.  We shouldn't just accept the loss of features because "that's progress".  And again, NWN had the capacity to offer quite a lot of exploration, because the levels were all of modular design.

Also, as you point out, there are 3D games that offer more exploration.  And ME had quite a lot. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

tmp7704 wrote...

No, if you got down that particular branch, it goes like this:

PC: I will see if I can find this relic.
Teagan: No one else can. Even if I wished to do it myself, I cannot abandon Redcliffe to its own devices.
Teagan: Perhaps you could seek out the brother's home in Denerim and see if any clues remain on his whereabouts. It is the only place to begin the search, I think.
Teagan: I must go to the hall and begin rebuilding. I wish you luck, and may the Maker go with you.
(end)

there's nothing here that'd openly suggest Teagan thinks you believe in the Urn. He only believes that you'll give it a try to find it, which is what you declare.

This is absolutely correct.

Also, Isolde is grasping at straws.  She'll cling to any sliver of hope she can get.  Grief-stricken people aren't generally rational.

As for correcting incorrect interpretations, I don't see why you'd usually bother.  Unless the misinterpretation affects what you'll actually be able to do, who cares whether someone misunderstood you?  They'll figure it out eventually when your actions match what you actually meant in the first place.