98 réponses à ce sujet

[TheCreeper]

So Templar ending, Cassandra wants hawke because they would be someone the templars would listen to, but would they? I mean with mages it makes sense because  even a non-mage hawke would be seen as someone who stood up to the templars for them. But the Templars are zealots who defied the Chantry (The ones who everyone thought had an iron grip on them) to (for the most part) fight the mages on their own terms, what exactly did hawke do that would make them listen to him/her more than the Chantry. Hawke was a person who helped the Templars enact one right of annulment, then killed a (Admitedly insane) Knight commander. I could see Kirkwall templars listening to them, but the rest of them? I can't see them really paying much attention to hawke.

[Xilizhra]

No.

[TEWR]

lyrium-addicted junkies with swords who can't get their fix listening to someone? Ha.

[Zanallen]

I doubt the mages would listen to Hawke either. This has spiraled out of control and no one man is going to solve it. Which is one of the issues I have with DA2. It is stupid that all mage circles revolted everywhere. Really? All of the mages managed to free themselves from the templars? All of them wanted to join in a war? That's silly.

[whykikyouwhy]

There's always the cult of personality to take into account. By the time Cassandra is talking to Varric, years have passed since the battle with Meredith. As players, we don't yet know how Thedas is - what society is like, and how the legend of the Champion may have grown and developed at that point in time when the interrogation takes place. The legendary vanquishier of the Qunari, breaker of the Circle, etc, may indeed be able to hold some sway over templars and mages alike.

[TEWR]

Zanallen wrote...

I doubt the mages would listen to Hawke either. This has spiraled out of control and no one man is going to solve it. Which is one of the issues I have with DA2. It is stupid that all mage circles revolted everywhere. Really? All of the mages managed to free themselves from the templars? All of them wanted to join in a war? That's silly.

I imagine that the events of DAII ignited the fuse that led to the chain reaction and subsequent explosion that was the mages revolting in Asunder, since that book deals more closely with what happened.

[TJPags]

Zanallen wrote...

I doubt the mages would listen to Hawke either. This has spiraled out of control and no one man is going to solve it. Which is one of the issues I have with DA2. It is stupid that all mage circles revolted everywhere. Really? All of the mages managed to free themselves from the templars? All of them wanted to join in a war? That's silly.

I have to pretty much agree here.

I mean, every Circle in Thedas successfuly rebelled?  That seems somewhat far fetched to me.

Also, Hawke disappears at the end, even if you side with the mages.  In fact, the last I saw of him in my mage ending was him walking out of a courtyard filled with Templars, not mages.  I'm not even sure I saw Hawke actually rescue a single mage, did we?

Sure, the legend grows in the telling . . . I'm just not sure what the basis for the legend is here.

[Xilizhra]

I'm not even sure I saw Hawke actually rescue a single mage, did we?

"Many lived to tell the tale." Hawke rescued plenty.

[TJPags]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not even sure I saw Hawke actually rescue a single mage, did we?

"Many lived to tell the tale." Hawke rescued plenty.

I said "saw". 

I mean, I know what Varric said - would have been nice to see Hawke save one, at least . . . .

[TheCreeper]

Zanallen wrote...

I doubt the mages would listen to Hawke either. This has spiraled out of control and no one man is going to solve it. Which is one of the issues I have with DA2. It is stupid that all mage circles revolted everywhere. Really? All of the mages managed to free themselves from the templars? All of them wanted to join in a war? That's silly.

Well keep in mind in awakening mages narrowly voted down a Libertarian bill of secession, so I get the impression that Mage/Templar relations were rather poor to start with. If the Mages heard about a rather legally questionable right of annulment   that was actually defied (in a major templar city less) , I imagine many mages would be motivated on a couple of different levels to get away from the templars.

[Zanallen]

TJPags wrote...
I said "saw". 

I mean, I know what Varric said - would have been nice to see Hawke save one, at least . . . .

They were all horribly maimed. Bioware didn't want to show all the horribly maimed survivors. But they lived. That is what is important.

[jlb524]

TJPags wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not even sure I saw Hawke actually rescue a single mage, did we?

"Many lived to tell the tale." Hawke rescued plenty.

I said "saw". 

I mean, I know what Varric said - would have been nice to see Hawke save one, at least . . . .

There's an encounter in Lowtown near the Alienage where you happen upon a group of mages being attacked by Templars...you kill the Templars and those mages are saved.

[TEWR]

TJPags wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not even sure I saw Hawke actually rescue a single mage, did we?

"Many lived to tell the tale." Hawke rescued plenty.

I said "saw". 

I mean, I know what Varric said - would have been nice to see Hawke save one, at least . . . .

I blame the plot. No matter what, the mages around Hawke die at the same time from a sudden heart attack brought on by an infection of the big toe in the confrontation with the first two waves of Templars.

Then, the First Enchanter decides to go bat**** crazy for no valid reason at all. Comes completely out of left field when he had never shown any signs of being anywhere near insane prior to that incident.

Moral of the story: Everything Hawke touches dies, even when he doesn't mean for them to die.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 octobre 2011 - 01:54 .

[Xilizhra]

TJPags wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not even sure I saw Hawke actually rescue a single mage, did we?

"Many lived to tell the tale." Hawke rescued plenty.

I said "saw". 

I mean, I know what Varric said - would have been nice to see Hawke save one, at least . . . .

It'd be nice if I wasn't walking out of a courtyard full of templars who were still breathing, either.
Also, what Jlb said.

[TheCreeper]

Xilizhra wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not even sure I saw Hawke actually rescue a single mage, did we?

"Many lived to tell the tale." Hawke rescued plenty.

I said "saw". 

I mean, I know what Varric said - would have been nice to see Hawke save one, at least . . . .

It'd be nice if I wasn't walking out of a courtyard full of templars who were still breathing, either.
Also, what Jlb said.

I got the impression the Templars kinda gave up at that point because it took more templars coming into the city to actually restore order.

[TJPags]

jlb524 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not even sure I saw Hawke actually rescue a single mage, did we?

"Many lived to tell the tale." Hawke rescued plenty.

I said "saw". 

I mean, I know what Varric said - would have been nice to see Hawke save one, at least . . . .

There's an encounter in Lowtown near the Alienage where you happen upon a group of mages being attacked by Templars...you kill the Templars and those mages are saved.

Ahh, forgot that.

I guess that qualifies . . . . . still, one in the Gallows itself would have been nice . . .

Overall, I agree with tEWR . . . it's yet another plot hole in DA2.

[CrimsonZephyr]

TJPags wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

I doubt the mages would listen to Hawke either. This has spiraled out of control and no one man is going to solve it. Which is one of the issues I have with DA2. It is stupid that all mage circles revolted everywhere. Really? All of the mages managed to free themselves from the templars? All of them wanted to join in a war? That's silly.

I have to pretty much agree here.

I mean, every Circle in Thedas successfuly rebelled?  That seems somewhat far fetched to me.

Also, Hawke disappears at the end, even if you side with the mages.  In fact, the last I saw of him in my mage ending was him walking out of a courtyard filled with Templars, not mages.  I'm not even sure I saw Hawke actually rescue a single mage, did we?

Sure, the legend grows in the telling . . . I'm just not sure what the basis for the legend is here.

I don't think the Templars have actually faced a situation in living memory where all the Circles were in a state of rebellion. Keep in mind that the garden variety annulment is one where most mages are either abominations, already eaten by abominations, or maimed by abominations, not necessarily a situation where mages are attacking all over Thedas. There's also the possibility that mage leaders have been planning and scheming independently of Anders, and that Orsino's submissiveness is not really a good gauge on the political climate of the Circles. Simply put, not every mage is a fragile waif and not every templar is an invincible badass. DA2 really played up the Templars' ability to no-sell magic attacks, trying to turn the Order into an invincible force of nature that the mages have no chance against when in both games there are quite a few examples of mages handing templars their asses on a plate. Also, by the end of the game, the mages have rebelled. That's three years for them to get free of the Templars and militarize. A lot could have happened in three years.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 25 octobre 2011 - 02:12 .

[TJPags]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

I doubt the mages would listen to Hawke either. This has spiraled out of control and no one man is going to solve it. Which is one of the issues I have with DA2. It is stupid that all mage circles revolted everywhere. Really? All of the mages managed to free themselves from the templars? All of them wanted to join in a war? That's silly.

I have to pretty much agree here.

I mean, every Circle in Thedas successfuly rebelled?  That seems somewhat far fetched to me.

Also, Hawke disappears at the end, even if you side with the mages.  In fact, the last I saw of him in my mage ending was him walking out of a courtyard filled with Templars, not mages.  I'm not even sure I saw Hawke actually rescue a single mage, did we?

Sure, the legend grows in the telling . . . I'm just not sure what the basis for the legend is here.

I don't think the Templars have actually faced a situation in living memory where all the Circles were in a state of rebellion. Keep in mind that the garden variety annulment is one where most mages are either abominations, already eaten by abominations, or maimed by abominations, not necessarily a situation where mages are attacking all over Thedas. There's also the possibility that mage leaders have been planning and scheming independently of Anders, and that Orsino's submissiveness is not really a good gauge on the political climate of the Circles. Simply put, not every mage is a fragile waif and not every templar is an invincible badass. DA2 really played up the Templars' ability to no-sell magic attacks, trying to turn the Order into an invincible force of nature that the mages have no chance against when in both games there are quite a few examples of mages handing templars their asses on a plate. Also, by the end of the game, the mages have rebelled. That's three years for them to get free of the Templars and militarize. A lot could have happened in three years.

All true, Templars are not kryptonite to mages,  I get that.

But don't you think, after Kirkwall, security at others Circles might go up?  And more when the next Circle goes . . .and then more?  Etc.

That's the part I have a hard time with.  Unless every Circle went rebel on the same day, very soon after Kirkwall, it seems unlikely that every one would be successful. I don't say impossible, I say unlikely.  IMO, very unlikely to the point of almost impossible, if there was someone with a clue in charge of the Templars overall.

I also find it rather unlikely that every Circle went rebel on the same day . . . .

All of which leaves me wondering just exactly how this happened.  And I just find it . . .well, I'll stick with unlikely.

[TheCreeper]

Well keep in mind some of the templars rebelled to support the mages so maybe some of the mages had templar help when they rebelled.

[Heimdall]

TJPags wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

I doubt the mages would listen to Hawke either. This has spiraled out of control and no one man is going to solve it. Which is one of the issues I have with DA2. It is stupid that all mage circles revolted everywhere. Really? All of the mages managed to free themselves from the templars? All of them wanted to join in a war? That's silly.

I have to pretty much agree here.

I mean, every Circle in Thedas successfuly rebelled?  That seems somewhat far fetched to me.

Also, Hawke disappears at the end, even if you side with the mages.  In fact, the last I saw of him in my mage ending was him walking out of a courtyard filled with Templars, not mages.  I'm not even sure I saw Hawke actually rescue a single mage, did we?

Sure, the legend grows in the telling . . . I'm just not sure what the basis for the legend is here.

I don't think the Templars have actually faced a situation in living memory where all the Circles were in a state of rebellion. Keep in mind that the garden variety annulment is one where most mages are either abominations, already eaten by abominations, or maimed by abominations, not necessarily a situation where mages are attacking all over Thedas. There's also the possibility that mage leaders have been planning and scheming independently of Anders, and that Orsino's submissiveness is not really a good gauge on the political climate of the Circles. Simply put, not every mage is a fragile waif and not every templar is an invincible badass. DA2 really played up the Templars' ability to no-sell magic attacks, trying to turn the Order into an invincible force of nature that the mages have no chance against when in both games there are quite a few examples of mages handing templars their asses on a plate. Also, by the end of the game, the mages have rebelled. That's three years for them to get free of the Templars and militarize. A lot could have happened in three years.

All true, Templars are not kryptonite to mages,  I get that.

But don't you think, after Kirkwall, security at others Circles might go up?  And more when the next Circle goes . . .and then more?  Etc.

That's the part I have a hard time with.  Unless every Circle went rebel on the same day, very soon after Kirkwall, it seems unlikely that every one would be successful. I don't say impossible, I say unlikely.  IMO, very unlikely to the point of almost impossible, if there was someone with a clue in charge of the Templars overall.

I also find it rather unlikely that every Circle went rebel on the same day . . . .

All of which leaves me wondering just exactly how this happened.  And I just find it . . .well, I'll stick with unlikely.

I don't think all of them were suddessful.  I was under the impression that it did occur shortly after Kirkwall and most Circles were successful but a few were annulled in the attempt.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 25 octobre 2011 - 03:03 .

[TJPags]

TheCreeper wrote...

Well keep in mind some of the templars rebelled to support the mages so maybe some of the mages had templar help when they rebelled.

True, I suppose that would help.

Maybe I have a hard time buying it simply because it makes little sense to me, in general.

Lord Aesir wrote...

I don't think all of them were suddessful. I was under the impression that it did occur shortly after Kirkwall and most Circles were successful but a few were annulled in the attempt.

Hmmm . . . . interesting.  Makes more sense to me, and doesn't seem to be completely ruled out, if I recall what Varric said correctly.

[Heimdall]

TJPags wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

Well keep in mind some of the templars rebelled to support the mages so maybe some of the mages had templar help when they rebelled.

True, I suppose that would help.

Maybe I have a hard time buying it simply because it makes little sense to me, in general.

Lord Aesir wrote...

I don't think all of them were suddessful. I was under the impression that it did occur shortly after Kirkwall and most Circles were successful but a few were annulled in the attempt.

Hmmm . . . . interesting.  Makes more sense to me, and doesn't seem to be completely ruled out, if I recall what Varric said correctly.

I believe he said that the Chantry "lost the circles".  There's more than one way a Circle may be lost.  Makes me wonder what happened in Ferelden.

[TheCreeper]

Depends on the mage friendlyness of the Grey Warden (and if they were a mage) The king may have just made the templars stand down and allow the mages to leave.

[Huntress]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not even sure I saw Hawke actually rescue a single mage, did we?

"Many lived to tell the tale." Hawke rescued plenty.

I said "saw". 

I mean, I know what Varric said - would have been nice to see Hawke save one, at least . . . .

I blame the plot. No matter what, the mages around Hawke die at the same time from a sudden heart attack brought on by an infection of the big toe in the confrontation with the first two waves of Templars.

Then, the First Enchanter decides to go bat**** crazy for no valid reason at all. Comes completely out of left field when he had never shown any signs of being anywhere near insane prior to that incident.

Moral of the story: Everything Hawke touches dies, even when he doesn't mean for them to die.

I think the word Kirkwall is the curse.. remember what happened when hawke's mother mention it at the start?
And I do not like act 3 end at all, I wish bioware just give act 4 or something..

[Beerfish]

They would both listen to Hawke. Even the two crazies that were leading each faction at the time of the conflict listened to Hawke to some extent, trusted him to do things for them and were afraid of the power of Hawke and his powerful allies. Cullen bows to Hawkes actions at the end. Hawke and his group is like a hammer that can greatly help or greatly hurt either cause.