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[Northern Sun]

TJPags wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

I doubt the mages would listen to Hawke either. This has spiraled out of control and no one man is going to solve it. Which is one of the issues I have with DA2. It is stupid that all mage circles revolted everywhere. Really? All of the mages managed to free themselves from the templars? All of them wanted to join in a war? That's silly.

I have to pretty much agree here.

I mean, every Circle in Thedas successfuly rebelled?  That seems somewhat far fetched to me.

Also, Hawke disappears at the end, even if you side with the mages.  In fact, the last I saw of him in my mage ending was him walking out of a courtyard filled with Templars, not mages.  I'm not even sure I saw Hawke actually rescue a single mage, did we?

Sure, the legend grows in the telling . . . I'm just not sure what the basis for the legend is here.

I don't think the Templars have actually faced a situation in living memory where all the Circles were in a state of rebellion. Keep in mind that the garden variety annulment is one where most mages are either abominations, already eaten by abominations, or maimed by abominations, not necessarily a situation where mages are attacking all over Thedas. There's also the possibility that mage leaders have been planning and scheming independently of Anders, and that Orsino's submissiveness is not really a good gauge on the political climate of the Circles. Simply put, not every mage is a fragile waif and not every templar is an invincible badass. DA2 really played up the Templars' ability to no-sell magic attacks, trying to turn the Order into an invincible force of nature that the mages have no chance against when in both games there are quite a few examples of mages handing templars their asses on a plate. Also, by the end of the game, the mages have rebelled. That's three years for them to get free of the Templars and militarize. A lot could have happened in three years.

All true, Templars are not kryptonite to mages,  I get that.

But don't you think, after Kirkwall, security at others Circles might go up?  And more when the next Circle goes . . .and then more?  Etc.

That's the part I have a hard time with.  Unless every Circle went rebel on the same day, very soon after Kirkwall, it seems unlikely that every one would be successful. I don't say impossible, I say unlikely.  IMO, very unlikely to the point of almost impossible, if there was someone with a clue in charge of the Templars overall.

I also find it rather unlikely that every Circle went rebel on the same day . . . .

All of which leaves me wondering just exactly how this happened.  And I just find it . . .well, I'll stick with unlikely.

Well, one of the main arguements Circle loyalists like Wynne make is that in addition to protecting citizens from mages, the Circle and Templars protect mages from citizens who would use mages as scapegoats. After Anders, an apostate, destroyed the Chantry, Meredith seemingly bowed to "public" pressure and attempted to annul them, thus rendering that arguement invalid. This probably would cause a lot of Circle mage to go "If we don't do something, we're next!" In addition, I recall codex entries state that the Libertarians have grown in influence during DA2 and they would undoubtedly sway mages to them after Kirkwall.
Gaider also said in the Registered General forum that mages have "sending stones" for quick communication across distances. They could conceivably use these to organize far faster than the Templars can.

Still, I really hope the Asunder novel will go into detail regarding exactly how we got from Kirkwall to every Circle rebelling.

[Gabey5]

i doubt anyone will listen to hawke

[EmperorSahlertz]

Who said all the Circles "succesfully" revolted?

[SkittlesKat96]

They might listen...at least the ones in Kirkwall and the Free Marshes. And the Templars in the Free Marshes altogether are probably pretty large in number, if Hawke could just get one group of Templars to listen to him then maybe others would follow, or maybe not.

Many Templars are very serious about what they do and are serious about the Chantry and their vows, if Hawke had the same common goal and the Kirkwall templars on his side then he could probably recruit many Templars

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 25 octobre 2011 - 08:14 .

[Gervaise]

Hawke does save some mages - not only are there those Circle Mages and Enchanters he helps in Lowtown (Enchanters being the senior rank are more likely to have contacts in other Circles) but when in the Gallows Hall with Orsino there are a dozen other mages there - including Alain and Emile. After the first wave attack by Templars, which my group repulsed with not a single loss of life among the mages, if you ignore the Havester and turn round you see the mages you rescued slip past the next wave of Templars (who are looking open mouthed at what Orsino has just done) and head out in the direction of Sandal. We know that there are still alternative routes into and out of the Gallows - otherwise how did Sandal get in? So take it as read that all the non abomination mages, got to safety via that route, while Sandal single handedly held off demons, abominations and templars.

Now at one point before he goes wierd, Orsino comments that now they have all been branded apostates, their only hope is in the other Circles. Presumably by this he means that the survivors will have to look to the other Circles for sanctuary but also perhaps he hopes that they will hear of the injustice committed at Kirkwall and do something about it. As First Enchanter he must be aware of the unrest in the Cirlces. The Mages would certainly listen to a Hawke who was willing to sacrifice their own position and life in order to protect innocent mages and then succeeded in defying the Templars and that is the story that the survivors would have told.

As for the Templars, I have always found it somewhat problematic that the Templars would respect Hawke's opinion solely based on their actions at the end of the game. You can actually support the mage rebellion the entire way through and then switch sides at the last moment to save your own skin. At no point do you have to demonstrate great piety or devotion to the Maker/Chantry - which we are given to understand has always been the first consideration when selecting Templars. The Templars in Kirkwall were quite happy with the idea of arresting you until Meredith went crazy, even though you had supported them, killed all the mages and executed Anders. The fact that you upheld the rule of law and status quo would not carry much weight with templars who have rebelled against it. I would have thought they would have a better chance of convincing them with Cullen, but may be he was one of the first to defect.

[Sharn01]

In DA:O we are told that Templar's hunt individual mage's in a group because they are dangerous, and that an exremely powerful mage is to much for even a group of Templar's to handle. In DA2 a dozen or so mages are cowering in a cave because one templar is standing outside waiting for his backup of a whole three more Templar's. They have been pretty inconsistent in their storytelling on whether or not mages are actually dangerous and how effective Templar's are against them.

Its really just a roll of the dice as to what mood they are in when writing the mage rebellion, are these the powerful and potentially dangerous mages of Origins that Templars did not choose to face alone if they could avoid it, or the mages of DA2 where one lone Templar is a threat to a dozen of them by himself?

Modifié par Sharn01, 25 octobre 2011 - 09:59 .

[Gervaise]

The Templars in Ferelden probably hunt in packs because there is this story that is constantly told among them about how small groups of Templars go out into the wilds to arrest a batty old woman and her little girl and they never come back!!!

[jamesp81]

Zanallen wrote...

I doubt the mages would listen to Hawke either. This has spiraled out of control and no one man is going to solve it. Which is one of the issues I have with DA2. It is stupid that all mage circles revolted everywhere. Really? All of the mages managed to free themselves from the templars? All of them wanted to join in a war? That's silly.

Why?

The templars attempted to murder every mage in Kirkwall for a crime they didn't commit.  If there was ever a wake up call, that was it.

It's kind of like with politicians and journalists.  Most of the time, they utter hollow platitudes to sound polite and reasonable.  Occasionally, however, they'll slip up and tell you who they really are and what they really think.  That's what happened in Kirkwall.

[ReallyRue]

Zanallen wrote...

I doubt the mages would listen to Hawke either. This has spiraled out of control and no one man is going to solve it. Which is one of the issues I have with DA2. It is stupid that all mage circles revolted everywhere. Really? All of the mages managed to free themselves from the templars? All of them wanted to join in a war? That's silly.

I agree. I don't even see how a mage war is that likely, considering the whole of Thedas (except maybe Tevinter, who probably wouldn't want to fight everyone else) would probably be against them. I imagine many mages would just want to hide, or find their families and run.

[Patchwork]

Gaider also said in the Registered General forum that mages have "sending stones" for quick communication across distances. They could conceivably use these to organize far faster than the Templars can.

That successors to Tevinter Eluvians exsist would have been good information to get in-game. The element of surprise was definitely on the mages' side then.

I can imagine circle annulled caused the others to fight harder for freedom. And really all the mages had to do was confine the templars while they escaped. Judging from the Fereldan circle templars don't do well when caught by surprise.

[Soltan Heatwave]

Hmm, I thought the Fereldan Circle was taken out of the jurisdiction by king Alistair. At least that is what he told my warden mage. If he didn't I am going to have to talk to him with a few of my Mage Consortium friends. You also have the possibility that other mage consortium groups exist through out Thedas. There isn't any evidence for this, but if it existed in Fereldon then there must be other apostate groups like this around. If the circles are rebelling, they could have joined in to help their brother mages totally destroy chantry rule so they could also come out of hiding.

[Soltan Heatwave]

I also think they would listen to Hawke. The champion of Kirkkwall, especially since he helped save mages, and free both the city and the templars from real crazy b**** under the influence of a curse. Other templars and the chantry itself would be aware of this. Though I do have to admit that the fanatics on both sides wouldn't want to listen to anyone anyway, but I feel that the sane mages and templars would. If I am not mistaken the Fereldon Circle should, since king Alistair decreed that the Fereldon circle would be free of Chantry control, at least that is what he told my warden mage. Is my warden and his Mage Consortium friends going to have to pay Alistair a visit one night soon? Maybe this could usher in a recognized place for the Mage Consortium. Who knows when the rebellion starts they could also act as reinforcements or could have helped the mages delay the templars long enough for the circle mages to act or escape from their circles. Haven't seen any mage consortium people in DA2, but that doesn't mean they don't exist or won't or didn't help.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

I doubt the mages would listen to Hawke either. This has spiraled out of control and no one man is going to solve it. Which is one of the issues I have with DA2. It is stupid that all mage circles revolted everywhere. Really? All of the mages managed to free themselves from the templars? All of them wanted to join in a war? That's silly.

I have to pretty much agree here.

I mean, every Circle in Thedas successfuly rebelled?  That seems somewhat far fetched to me.

Also, Hawke disappears at the end, even if you side with the mages.  In fact, the last I saw of him in my mage ending was him walking out of a courtyard filled with Templars, not mages.  I'm not even sure I saw Hawke actually rescue a single mage, did we?

Sure, the legend grows in the telling . . . I'm just not sure what the basis for the legend is here.

Varric notes that there were "many survivors" because of Hawke's actions in the pro-mage ending, but I agree that the cutscene did a bad job at conveying this. Then again, the ending was pretty ridiculous, with Meredith becoming a Super-Sayian, so I don't see much point in looking for common sense in the ending.

I have to agree about Hawke's ability to make either faction stand down as well. If the mages in every Circle of Magi across Thedas were motivated enough to rebel against a nearly millennia old system, I don't see a pro-mage Hawke being capable of motivating them to stand down - and the same is true with the templars and a pro-templar Hawke, especially if the templars believe that they are doing so as a result of their religious conviction (as Cullen points out that templars have "divine right" over mages in Act III, when he is discussing why he thinks Grand Cleric Elthina must support the templars).

[Cobra's_back]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not even sure I saw Hawke actually rescue a single mage, did we?

"Many lived to tell the tale." Hawke rescued plenty.

I said "saw". 

I mean, I know what Varric said - would have been nice to see Hawke save one, at least . . . .

I blame the plot. No matter what, the mages around Hawke die at the same time from a sudden heart attack brought on by an infection of the big toe in the confrontation with the first two waves of Templars.

Then, the First Enchanter decides to go bat**** crazy for no valid reason at all. Comes completely out of left field when he had never shown any signs of being anywhere near insane prior to that incident.

Moral of the story: Everything Hawke touches dies, even when he doesn't mean for them to die.

I agree.

Hawke doesn’t seem to have a great deal of influence. Chaos follows Hawke. He is played too often and doesn’t seem to be much of a leader. The two DLCs out haven’t done much for Hawke’s leadership resume. I really can’t see Hawke solving this. They would really have to change Hawke. Give Hawke the “Silver Tongue” option fast with added cunning.

[Sons of Horus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I blame the plot. No matter what, the mages around Hawke die at the same time from a sudden heart attack brought on by an infection of the big toe in the confrontation with the first two waves of Templars.

Then, the First Enchanter decides to go bat**** crazy for no valid reason at all. Comes completely out of left field when he had never shown any signs of being anywhere near insane prior to that incident.

Moral of the story: Everything Hawke touches dies, even when he doesn't mean for them to die.

So your Hawke’s gonna end up killing your Merrill then? That’s an irony .

[Huntress]

Beerfish wrote...

They would both listen to Hawke. Even the two crazies that were leading each faction at the time of the conflict listened to Hawke to some extent, trusted him to do things for them and were afraid of the power of Hawke and his powerful allies. Cullen bows to Hawkes actions at the end. Hawke and his group is like a hammer that can greatly help or greatly hurt either cause.

Some templars and mages might listen to hawke, but you'll kidding yourself if you think all of them will accept Hawke, both sides have strong views of how bad is going to end, some mages will use blood magic to stop hawke from hanging them to the templars, many knows what to expect if they ever go back to the circle and some of the templars will try to kill you because they can't make tranquill any mage they don't like or because some mages are too smart for their own good and should be made tranquil by force.

Templars will want to go back and have absolute power over mages, and the mages want the templars to pay for how much wrong they had done.

[Huntress]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

I doubt the mages would listen to Hawke either. This has spiraled out of control and no one man is going to solve it. Which is one of the issues I have with DA2. It is stupid that all mage circles revolted everywhere. Really? All of the mages managed to free themselves from the templars? All of them wanted to join in a war? That's silly.

I have to pretty much agree here.

I mean, every Circle in Thedas successfuly rebelled?  That seems somewhat far fetched to me.

Also, Hawke disappears at the end, even if you side with the mages.  In fact, the last I saw of him in my mage ending was him walking out of a courtyard filled with Templars, not mages.  I'm not even sure I saw Hawke actually rescue a single mage, did we?

Sure, the legend grows in the telling . . . I'm just not sure what the basis for the legend is here.

Varric notes that there were "many survivors" because of Hawke's actions in the pro-mage ending, but I agree that the cutscene did a bad job at conveying this. Then again, the ending was pretty ridiculous, with Meredith becoming a Super-Sayian, so I don't see much point in looking for common sense in the ending.

I have to agree about Hawke's ability to make either faction stand down as well. If the mages in every Circle of Magi across Thedas were motivated enough to rebel against a nearly millennia old system, I don't see a pro-mage Hawke being capable of motivating them to stand down - and the same is true with the templars and a pro-templar Hawke, especially if the templars believe that they are doing so as a result of their religious conviction (as Cullen points out that templars have "divine right" over mages in Act III, when he is discussing why he thinks Grand Cleric Elthina must support the templars).

You forget one character that tells stories. If hawke side with the templars and Kill ALL mages in the circle then varric will tell the tell of how it was done, some of the one listening have family member in the circles, they will inform of what happened in Kirkwall. Remember every time hawke meet someone, this person already know hawke from the tells, even tallis think hawke is a thieve because of Varric stories.

[maxernst]

The whole set-up makes so little sense to me at this point that I can't speculate. It seems bizarre that whether Hawke sided with the mages or the templars makes no difference to his usefulness in solving the conflict. Plus, everything up to this point has shown a diversity of opinion among both mages (the fraternities) and Templars (I kind of see Thrask, Gregoir and Cullen as representative of three factions). I find it hard to imagine all the Circles responding in the same way to Kirkwall, and everything boiling down to mages vs Templars--both sides seem too divided.

[LobselVith8]

Soltan Heatwave wrote...

Hmm, I thought the Fereldan Circle was taken out of the jurisdiction by king Alistair. At least that is what he told my warden mage.

It seems the developers 'rectoned' this by having the Chantry say no to the new ruler of Ferelden, if the Magi boon is requested by the Hero of Ferelden. If you consider that there's no independent Circle of Orzammar when the Hero of Ferelden requests for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence, it's clear that the developers likely changed their minds. Regardless, King Alistair is still arguing for the Magi boon several years later, and is protecting apostates from the templars.

Gaider stated this about what happened to the Magi boon:

David Gaider wrote...

It does come up, actually.

Keep in mind, however, that the kingdom doesn't control the Circle of Magi. That conversation no doubt went a little like this:

King/Queen: "We would like mages in Ferelden to be free."
Chantry: "No."

That said, the conversation doesn't necessarily stop there-- as you'll see. We can indeed pick up the boons the Origins player was granted and do intend to use them in the future.

Although it doesn't address why there's no independent Circle of Orzammar if the Chantry said no to the new ruler of Ferelden.

Soltan Heatwave wrote...

If he didn't I am going to have to talk to him with a few of my Mage Consortium friends. You also have the possibility that other mage consortium groups exist through out Thedas. There isn't any evidence for this, but if it existed in Fereldon then there must be other apostate groups like this around. If the circles are rebelling, they could have joined in to help their brother mages totally destroy chantry rule so they could also come out of hiding.

All the Circles of Magi rebelled from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars, as Varric notes, but I'd imagine that the mages would seek out the Hero of Ferelden if he publicly requested for his people to be free, when he could have asked for wealth or a title (as First Enchanter Irving notes at the royal ceremony).

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It seems the developers 'rectoned' this by having the Chantry say no to the new ruler of Ferelden, if the Magi boon is requested by the Hero of Ferelden. If you consider that there's no independent Circle of Orzammar when the Hero of Ferelden requests for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence, it's clear that the developers likely changed their minds. Regardless, King Alistair is still arguing for the Magi boon several years later, and is protecting apostates from the templars.

Gaider stated this about what happened to the Magi boon:

Although it doesn't address why there's no independent Circle of Orzammar if the Chantry said no to the new ruler of Ferelden.

Both of these might be related to the trouble with Orlais, Alistair taking steps to "free" the circle might make the Chantry lean on the empress to put some political pressure on the young king. Nothing expresses a "no" quite so clearly as the largest army in the world after all. Not the onlt reason certainly, but one of many factors. I imagine there being an orlesian or two that wouldn't mind having the Chantry's "blessing" to teach the dog-lovers a lesson.

And I seriously doubt Orzammar would ever let an independent circle (who will all, or most anyways, be non-dwarves) endanger the lyrium trade. Regardless of wether Harrowmont or Bhelen is king.

All the Circles of Magi rebelled from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars, as Varric notes, but I'd imagine that the mages would seek out the Hero of Ferelden if he publicly requested for his people to be free, when he could have asked for wealth or a title (as First Enchanter Irving notes at the royal ceremony).

Hasn't the hero of Ferelden vanished by that point? It is 6 years after we last heard from him/her after all.

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

Both of these might be related to the trouble with Orlais, Alistair taking steps to "free" the circle might make the Chantry lean on the empress to put some political pressure on the young king. Nothing expresses a "no" quite so clearly as the largest army in the world after all. Not the onlt reason certainly, but one of many factors. I imagine there being an orlesian or two that wouldn't mind having the Chantry's "blessing" to teach the dog-lovers a lesson.

And I seriously doubt Orzammar would ever let an independent circle (who will all, or most anyways, be non-dwarves) endanger the lyrium trade. Regardless of wether Harrowmont or Bhelen is king.

King Harrowmont closes off Orzammar to the surface, while King Bhelen increases trade and regains control over some of the lost thaigs. I'd write Orzammar off as a lost cause if Harrowmont becomes King, but I think Bhelen is a much more effective leader. I'm not surprised that the independent Circle of Orzammar comes into existance with Dagna's research becoming public. Mages are exceptional against the darkspawn, as Duncan notes in the Magi Origin, and Orzammar is fighting a never-ending battle against the darkspawn who threaten their existance. Since Bhelen permits the casteless to fight the darkspawn in exchange for more freedoms, it makes sense that the mages might be afforded the same opportunity. Considering that Orzammar controls the lyrium trade and is the only legal source of lyrium for the surface world, there's nothing that the Chantry can do about it unless they want to lose all access to the lyrium.

Sir JK wrote...

Hasn't the hero of Ferelden vanished by that point? It is 6 years after we last heard from him/her after all.

All we know is that the Seekers can't locate The Warden or the Champion. King Alistair does acknowledge that the Hero of Ferelden is in Denerim seven years after the end of the Fifth Blight, maybe with Morrigan and his progeny in tow...

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

King Harrowmont closes off Orzammar to the surface, while King Bhelen increases trade and regains control over some of the lost thaigs. I'd write Orzammar off as a lost cause if Harrowmont becomes King, but I think Bhelen is a much more effective leader. I'm not surprised that the independent Circle of Orzammar comes into existance with Dagna's research becoming public. Mages are exceptional against the darkspawn, as Duncan notes in the Magi Origin, and Orzammar is fighting a never-ending battle against the darkspawn who threaten their existance. Since Bhelen permits the casteless to fight the darkspawn in exchange for more freedoms, it makes sense that the mages might be afforded the same opportunity. Considering that Orzammar controls the lyrium trade and is the only legal source of lyrium for the surface world, there's nothing that the Chantry can do about it unless they want to lose all access to the lyrium.

I'm just saying... maybe the reason no independent circle is set up in Orzammar if Alistair institutes pro-libertarian reforms (let's call them that for sake of clarity) is because the dwarves sees just how much trouble that nets him with the Chantry and figures that there's no way that it is worth it.

And Bhelen is nothing if not pragmatic...

All we know is that the Seekers can't locate The Warden or the Champion. King Alistair does acknowledge that the Hero of Ferelden is in Denerim seven years after the end of the Fifth Blight, maybe with Morrigan and his progeny in tow...

Hmmm... fair enough.

[TEWR]

Sons of Horus wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I blame the plot. No matter what, the mages around Hawke die at the same time from a sudden heart attack brought on by an infection of the big toe in the confrontation with the first two waves of Templars.

Then, the First Enchanter decides to go bat**** crazy for no valid reason at all. Comes completely out of left field when he had never shown any signs of being anywhere near insane prior to that incident.

Moral of the story: Everything Hawke touches dies, even when he doesn't mean for them to die.

So your Hawke’s gonna end up killing your Merrill then? That’s an irony .

*goes to corner. Cries vehemently*

 why'd you have to say that?

*sobs continuously*

[Gervaise]

I don't think Cassandra would believe for a moment that Hawke could influence all members of whichever faction she thinks he could help with. However, if you are trying to persuade, for example, those mages who would like to make some sort of peaceful compromise but are afraid to come forward, then having someone they would trust who could go to them and say, its okay, this is what the Chantry is proposing, would be useful. Obviously those mages who support the Resolutionists and have a similar agenda to Anders are not going to listen - the Chantry just wants to get the more moderate mages back on side and they are not likely to make themselves known to the Seekers, who they may assume just was to lock them back up again.
Just what Hawke would say to the Templars is a bit more difficult to fathom, since we don't know (and won't know until after the book comes out) why everything went pear shaped. The advanced blurb seems to suggest that something was affecting the Templars which they blamed on the mages. If this is the case then it would explain why the Templars start wanting to take direct action to protect themselves. If the Seekers then established that the mages weren't to blame, this could account for why they need an independent go-between to try and reach the renegade templars. And I suppose they might think Hawke is the right person for the job if they had previously dealt with a strange influence having a bad effect on Templars (and mages).

[Huntress]

"And I seriously doubt Orzammar would ever let an independent circle (who will all, or most anyways, be non-dwarves) endanger the lyrium trade. Regardless of wether Harrowmont or Bhelen is king."

If you put harrowmont in power orzammar close the doors.

here is what happens in my games:
Dawrf mage go to the circle. + points to possible alliance btwing mages and dwarves. *As a Warden.
Ortan is helped to gain her family status as a noble + points to possible alliance btwing mages and dwarves. *As a warden.
Dwarf priest is compleatly ignored ( dwarves already have a religion.) - minus point to the Chantry having a foot hold in orzammar. *As a warden.
Behelen is King + point to Possible alliance btwing mages and dwarves. As mage ( *as a warden).
Boom: Ask for humans to help dwarves. As a dwarf.
Help the Noble dwarf living in Dust town regain status. + point to possible alliance btwing mages and dwarves. As mage ( *as a warden: go to the surfice)
Noble in the bar: ask to join Bhelen.

Mages build a circle in Orzammar and the chantry starts gathering an army. Thats the end in every single one of my games.

note: Dwarves rather have control on the lyrium trade because they are the ones who farm it, sorry if I break the bubble!

PS:* When i said as a warden it means: as Human mage or not,elf mage or not or dwarf Noble or castless.

Modifié par Huntress, 25 octobre 2011 - 06:04 .