98 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Gotta love your black and white thinking.  Yes let's just do the easy thing instead of the right thing.  Who cares if innocent mages like Bethany get killed in the process.

Sorry, I had to laugh at the irony.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 27 octobre 2011 - 05:36 .

[dragonflight288]

Or even six year old apprentices who have been taken away from the families.

EDIT: In response to an earlier post, I didn't see this was on page four.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 27 octobre 2011 - 05:40 .

[Aggie Punbot]

Say, I heard a rumor some zerglings were spotted in this thread. Anyone seen any?

[AtreiyaN7]

TS2Aggie wrote...

Say, I heard a rumor some zerglings were spotted in this thread. Anyone seen any?

I think I may have accidentally let them out of their cages again - oops!

[Darkov]

I think Meredith went over the top, but she was a little crazy from the idol. However the Kirkwall Circle was dire, nearly every mage in it or around it was a Blood Mage, including O, who helped the guy who killed Leandra.

First time through I sided with the Mages, but this second play through, I'm totally going with the Templar.

As for listening to Hawke, maybe those in Kirkwall would've, but they've all gone pretty much, either dead or fleeing. The other Circles and Templars? Why would they listen to Hawke, none of them know him.

The Divine has or will, declare a holy war against the Mages, I think we need a new hero, one more than just a normal Man, Elf or Dwarf.

[DKJaigen]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

TS2Aggie wrote...

Say, I heard a rumor some zerglings were spotted in this thread. Anyone seen any?

I think I may have accidentally let them out of their cages again - oops!

Damn you! they are now nononnonononing this thread. So how are you going to fix this

[KotorEffect3]

Dave of Canada wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Gotta love your black and white thinking.  Yes let's just do the easy thing instead of the right thing.  Who cares if innocent mages like Bethany get killed in the process.

Sorry, I had to laugh at the irony.

Oh geez you are a pro-cerberus rengade in the mass effect threads and now you are pro templar in dragon age.  Anywho yes the pro templar mentality is black and white "grrr all mages dangerous must kill them grrr"

[Aggie Punbot]

What was that, KotorEffect3? Sorry, I wasn't listening.

[Zanallen]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Oh geez you are a pro-cerberus rengade in the mass effect threads and now you are pro templar in dragon age.  Anywho yes the pro templar mentality is black and white "grrr all mages dangerous must kill them grrr"

No, it is usually more like "All mages are potentially dangerous and need to be policed in some manner to ensure the safety of both the mages and the majority of the populace".

[KotorEffect3]

Zanallen wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Oh geez you are a pro-cerberus rengade in the mass effect threads and now you are pro templar in dragon age.  Anywho yes the pro templar mentality is black and white "grrr all mages dangerous must kill them grrr"

No, it is usually more like "All mages are potentially dangerous and need to be policed in some manner to ensure the safety of both the mages and the majority of the populace".

I am specificaly referring the RoA in Kirkwall.

[KotorEffect3]

TS2Aggie wrote...

What was that, KotorEffect3? Sorry, I wasn't listening.

of course  not

[Fylimar]

I'd lik to add a thought to this discussion: the reason, that so many mages turned into aborminations are, that the veil is thinned in Kirkwall. As a former Tevinter city, there were a lot of violent death and suffering, which weakened the veil. There were some information about that in tomes you find in and around Kirkwall (called in the codex 'Enigma of Kirkwall' - a group of people were looking into that problem). It was also said to be the reason, why there are so many murders in Krikwall. So - the mages aren't really to blame, they don't know all that and even if they did know, they still couldn't refuse to stay. It was wrong to build a Circle in Kirkwall in the first place - and in an old prison no less! I hoped, that my Hawke would be able to talk to someone about that - Elthina, Meredith, Dumas or Orsino, but there were never an option to do so.

[SirDoctorofTARDIS]

And another reasonable thread becomes another argument between the pro-mage and the pro-templar

[TheCreeper]

The Templar/Mage debate divides us to our very core it seems.

[LobselVith8]

Zanallen wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Oh geez you are a pro-cerberus rengade in the mass effect threads and now you are pro templar in dragon age.  Anywho yes the pro templar mentality is black and white "grrr all mages dangerous must kill them grrr"

No, it is usually more like "All mages are potentially dangerous and need to be policed in some manner to ensure the safety of both the mages and the majority of the populace".

And who watches the watchmen to make certain that the templars don't get out of line? The Seekers? Because I don't recall any Seekers who came to Kirkwall to check on the Knight-Commander becoming a dictator, or when she had a death squad murdering civilians. In fact, despite mages being raped, tortured, and made tranquil against Chantry law, there was no oversight for the templars.

[dragonflight288]

Granted, I'm sure watching the Templars is not the only duty of the Seekers. I'm not condoning the lack of oversight, but so little is actually known about Seekers that I hesitate to make any solid judgements about them without more information.

But I do agree that Meredith had no one watching over her and reigning her in from her political power grabbing, and since she was so busy doing that she wasn't watching the templars under her command.

[Zanallen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

And who watches the watchmen to make certain that the templars don't get out of line? The Seekers? Because I don't recall any Seekers who came to Kirkwall to check on the Knight-Commander becoming a dictator, or when she had a death squad murdering civilians. In fact, despite mages being raped, tortured, and made tranquil against Chantry law, there was no oversight for the templars.

No one is claiming the system isn't in need of reform. Set up more checks and balances. However, I would prefer a rigid structure in place to ensure the safety of the majority.

[LobselVith8]

Zanallen wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And who watches the watchmen to make certain that the templars don't get out of line? The Seekers? Because I don't recall any Seekers who came to Kirkwall to check on the Knight-Commander becoming a dictator, or when she had a death squad murdering civilians. In fact, despite mages being raped, tortured, and made tranquil against Chantry law, there was no oversight for the templars.

No one is claiming the system isn't in need of reform. Set up more checks and balances. However, I would prefer a rigid structure in place to ensure the safety of the majority.

Considering that Cullen thinks that the Grand Cleric should side with the templars because they have divine right over mages, I don't see reform happening.

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And who watches the watchmen to make certain that the templars don't get out of line? The Seekers? Because I don't recall any Seekers who came to Kirkwall to check on the Knight-Commander becoming a dictator, or when she had a death squad murdering civilians. In fact, despite mages being raped, tortured, and made tranquil against Chantry law, there was no oversight for the templars.

No one is claiming the system isn't in need of reform. Set up more checks and balances. However, I would prefer a rigid structure in place to ensure the safety of the majority.

Considering that Cullen thinks that the Grand Cleric should side with the templars because they have divine right over mages, I don't see reform happening.

Don't forget that Cullen is protrayed as a moderate Templar and he explicitly denies the essential humanity of mages.  If you view your charges as sub-human, then  no dialog is possible or even desirable.  I'm sorry but the Templars from that perspective alone pretty clearly wear the black hats here.

-Polaris

[maxernst]

IanPolaris wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And who watches the watchmen to make certain that the templars don't get out of line? The Seekers? Because I don't recall any Seekers who came to Kirkwall to check on the Knight-Commander becoming a dictator, or when she had a death squad murdering civilians. In fact, despite mages being raped, tortured, and made tranquil against Chantry law, there was no oversight for the templars.

No one is claiming the system isn't in need of reform. Set up more checks and balances. However, I would prefer a rigid structure in place to ensure the safety of the majority.

Considering that Cullen thinks that the Grand Cleric should side with the templars because they have divine right over mages, I don't see reform happening.

Don't forget that Cullen is protrayed as a moderate Templar and he explicitly denies the essential humanity of mages.  If you view your charges as sub-human, then  no dialog is possible or even desirable.  I'm sorry but the Templars from that perspective alone pretty clearly wear the black hats here.

-Polaris

He's NOT a moderate templar.  He's a hardliner, he's just rational and not sadistic. Gregoir is a moderate Templar.

Modifié par maxernst, 28 octobre 2011 - 01:47 .

[TheCreeper]

I think Gregoir was actually pretty liberal for a templar. Cullen started as a hardliner but it's clear his time with Meredith as a soften his views considerably

[Huntress]

TheCreeper wrote...

I think Gregoir was actually pretty liberal for a templar. Cullen started as a hardliner but it's clear his time with Meredith as a soften his views considerably

yes to the point of seen Human mages and elves mages as weapon and nothing also.

[Gervaise]

I do wonder about the Templars ability to listen if they still hold to their "Divine Right" beliefs. If you believe the Maker directly sanctions your actions, then it is very difficult to change those views. There has been much argument in the past about whether or not Elthina could have done more but in fact Cullen's words show that she wouldn't have much success even if she did. The only stance the Templars will accept is the one that backs their "Divine Right". Now Elthina herself states that both sides have valid arguments, which might suggest she doesn't entirely go along with the Divine Right theory, and she also states she hopes a "compromise" might be reached, again not something in keeping with the Templar view on matters. Cullen actually says he thinks Elthina is wrong for giving mages "false" hope.

When listening to the conversation between Sebastian and Averline on my latest run through, I thought that perhaps it could be seen that Sebastian was trying to find out if Elthina might have help from the guards if she needed to force the issue of Meredith, since he says that the latter is no longer listening to the advice of the chantry. Later Cullen says to Meredith that he stood by her when others were saying she was mad. Did Elthina perhaps approach Cullen about her concerns and he brushed them off?

The Templars were meant to be under the control of the Chantry but in reality, as shown in the Gallows, the Templars largely ran the show with minimal supervision on the basis that they were divinely authorised to do so. This is why Anders may well have hit the wrong target because whilst it may have given the impetus for mages to free themselves from the Chantry, it would seem to have given a similar motivation to the Templars. Why the Divine's own agent (Lelianna) did nothing on her intelligance gathering mission is questionable as you would have thought the Seekers should have intervened much sooner than they did. As it is, Cassandra's efforts do seem to a large extent being a case of "shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted".

[Huntress]

The only compromise betwen mages and templars is the chantry itself. thats what Anders destroyed.

Read how the chantry was form and wich term the mages agree to. am sure in none of them it said: in a jail cell and some times it should entertain the templars or be turn tranquil if mages shows any sign of intelligence or for saying No.

I want to know more about the mages that went to exile, this mages probably still using old magic.