47 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

hmmm.... I'd actually appreciate a dev coming in and clearing the air about this.

A wizard did it.

[TEWR]

Mr.House wrote...

Fixed.

what got fixed?

A wizard did it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 octobre 2011 - 10:33 .

[Kenshen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Templars don't take vows of chastity

http://social.biowar...x/4801810&lf=8)

edit: I do agree that Origins implied otherwise.  But Origins also seemed to depict the Templars as exclusively male, until Awakening.

Well then, that directly contradicts what the Templar in Redemption says. He outright says that they are "wed to the church" and "not allowed to marry".

Bioware is really contradicting themselves lately it seems .

I mean, this isn't something that can be explained away by "Oh that Templar didn't know that Templars can marry" because that's a very big piece of information that I think the Templars ought to know and would know considering Knight Commander Gregoir had to remind the Templar under his authority of their vows.

Just because he said that doesn't mean it is actually true.  I have not read any of the books so I don't know if this character is trust worthy or not.  I know many people in RL who will tell you something and think they are 100% right until they are proven wrong.  Can't always believe what you are told.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think if Redemption says something that contradicts the games, then I think we should go with the game because Redemption seems like it's slightly iffy on a couple areas.

[Sinuphro]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Templars don't take vows of chastity

http://social.biowar...x/4801810&lf=8)

edit: I do agree that Origins implied otherwise.  But Origins also seemed to depict the Templars as exclusively male, until Awakening.

Well then, that directly contradicts what the Templar in Redemption says. He outright says that they are "wed to the church" and "not allowed to marry".

Bioware is really contradicting themselves lately it seems .

I mean, this isn't something that can be explained away by "Oh that Templar didn't know that Templars can marry" because that's a very big piece of information that I think the Templars ought to know and would know considering Knight Commander Gregoir had to remind the Templar under his authority of their vows.

not only that; in DAO when you need to go either save the circle mages or kill them, you come across a room that has a templar under the spell of a desire demon. the desire demon tells you that the templar's true desire was to have a wife and kids but the chantry would not let him. thus it's likely that the chantry forbade templars from getting married too.

but yep yep; bioware keeps contradicting itself:
1. first of all it was DA2 itself; how come the begining movie shows hawke as being able to transform into a dragon but on playing flemmeth says he can't turn into a dragon??

2. how come is mage hawke able to use dragon claws to rip a darkspawn but flemmeth says he can't turn into a dragon??

3. How come is it that in the opening movie hawke kills the arishok at the gallows meaning that the templars got wtfpwned but in the game the fight against the arishok is in the viscount's castle??

4. How come is it that a mage trained by malcolm hawke and a grey warden mage cannot save bartrand's mind??

5. In DAO, demons could be expelled from a host; how come is it that in DA2 the keeper had to die in order for the demon to be expelled??

6. In legacy, how is it that Corypheus can manipulate the minds of people in kirkwall who are not grey wardens while he's asleep when the 1st grey warden clearly stated corypheus can only manipulate the minds of darkspawn and grey wardens near their calling?? If corypheus could manipulate the minds of all malcolm hawke would not have beeen able to seal him up.

Yep yep; Dragon Age franchise has definitely been messed up.

[SkittlesKat96]

I think its just a plot hole/minor inconsistency. Its easy for them to come up with an excuse/explanation for it. Maybe a dev will post in this thread about it.

[Sons of Horus]

As far as I understood what went on it seems like

He was a mercenary. (reasons unknown)
In Kirkwall he saved the Crimson Oars' Leader. Templars were then alerted to his presence.
Claimed he Ferelden mage, then taught in Kirkwall's Circle of magi. ( a bit like Bethany)
Attend the Viscount's party doing magic. Met Leandra thanks to Gamlen at said party and used his wit to charm her.
Met with her more times
Turned apostate thanks to the aid of Ser Maarevar Carver
Met Leandra once again at the party where the young Empress was.
They fled, but were dogged by the Templars
Eventually found a brief respite, but the Wardens forced Malcolm to help them
Afterwards, they went across the Waking Sea towards Ferelden and lived a new life.

[Gabey5]

1. Different countries run their chanty's differently
2. They could have been married before he joined the order

[LobselVith8]

Sons of Horus wrote...

As far as I understood what went on it seems like

He was a mercenary. (reasons unknown)
In Kirkwall he saved the Crimson Oars' Leader. Templars were then alerted to his presence.
Claimed he Ferelden mage, then taught in Kirkwall's Circle of magi. ( a bit like Bethany)
Attend the Viscount's party doing magic. Met Leandra thanks to Gamlen at said party and used his wit to charm her.
Met with her more times
Turned apostate thanks to the aid of Ser Maarevar Carver
Met Leandra once again at the party where the young Empress was.
They fled, but were dogged by the Templars
Eventually found a brief respite, but the Wardens forced Malcolm to help them
Afterwards, they went across the Waking Sea towards Ferelden and lived a new life.

Except Malcolm was never captured, according to the codex entries on his life. He was a mercenary:

"Malcolm Hawke ranged the breadth of the Free Marches as he ran from the templars who pursued him. He often posed as a mercenary, and his substantial martial skills easily secured him positions in different bands. On one assignment for the Crimson Oars he was sent to Kirkwall, the seat of templar power in the region. He had every intention of staying there briefly, but fate had other plans."

According to the codex "Malcolm's Bequest," Malcolm fled the city-state before he could be captured by the templars, and he was incognito at the Orlesian ball:

"In Kirkwall, Malcolm met Leandra and, despite all common sense, courted her. The few times Leandra managed to slip away from her family, Malcolm showed her a whole new world, something completely different from her cloistered existence. It was dangerous, forbidden, and she quickly fell madly in love with the dashing Malcolm Hawke. These stolen moments would end all too soon.

One day, while fighting the Carta on the docks, Malcolm used magic to save the life of the Crimson Oars' leader. The Kirkwall templars were alerted, but Malcolm wouldn't flee the city without seeing his love one last time. He devised to meet her at the masked ball for the visiting Orlesian Empress.

Disguised in Orlesian robes, Malcolm slipped past the templars to dance with his love. At the end of the night, Leandra would not hear his goodbyes and chanced at happiness rather than face her gray prearranged future. Malcolm and Leandra ran into the night and never looked back."

[TEWR]

Sinuphro wrote...


but yep yep; bioware keeps contradicting itself:
1. first of all it was DA2 itself; how come the begining movie shows hawke as being able to transform into a dragon but on playing flemmeth says he can't turn into a dragon??

um... it didn't. It showed an exaggeration of Hawke defeating droves of Darkspawn with rather obviously heroic dialogue to make it seem as if he was pure Champion material from the start (which would've been nice. Not the "I kill everything!" but the sense of being just a badass in general).

Then eventually it cuts to Flemeth's dragon form before Varric is called out for his bull****.

Cue the actual game and Hawke eventually does meet Flemeth's dragon form.

2. how come is mage hawke able to use dragon claws to rip a darkspawn but flemmeth says he can't turn into a dragon??

It's not really dragon claws at all. It's more like Hawke is reaching his arms through a hole in the fabric of space itself and having more giant versions appear to rip apart an Ogre.

3. How come is it that in the opening movie hawke kills the arishok at the gallows meaning that the templars got wtfpwned but in the game the fight against the arishok is in the viscount's castle??

Actually it was clearly on the steps leading up to the Viscount's Keep.

4. How come is it that a mage trained by malcolm hawke and a grey warden mage cannot save bartrand's mind??

Grey Warden mage? Anders? Anders doesn't train Hawke. And Bartrand's corrupted mind has never been seen before and even conventional Spirit Healer magic can only heal him temporarily.

Perhaps in time Bartrand can be healed, but this is something that hasn't been seen before because the corruption the idol caused is again something new. No one in Thedas' current times has ever heard of red lyrium, save for the Dwarves who locked away the reports on the Primeval Thaig.

5. In DAO, demons could be expelled from a host; how come is it that in DA2 the keeper had to die in order for the demon to be expelled??

Probably because the ritual requires a significant number of mages and lyrium, and while the mages were certainly there the lyrium wasn't.

6. In legacy, how is it that Corypheus can manipulate the minds of people in kirkwall who are not grey wardens while he's asleep when the 1st grey warden clearly stated corypheus can only manipulate the minds of darkspawn and grey wardens near their calling?? If corypheus could manipulate the minds of all malcolm hawke would not have beeen able to seal him up.

THIS I agree on. It's a blatant contradiction of lore by Bioware that they gave in a DLC. They give us one thing and then give us another.

However the codex was only one Warden's speculations, so it's not fact. It's wrong actually.

Yep yep; Dragon Age franchise has definitely been messed up.

I think Bioware's winging it and doesn't really know what to do, and that makes me a sad panda.


EDIT: I was in sort of a bad mood when I posted, so the first sentence may have sounded rude.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 octobre 2011 - 09:02 .

[Gervaise]

With regard to Wesley, it could well be that he married Averline and then joined the Chantry. She does say on one occasion "I married a man, not a templar." Which you could take to mean I saw a person, not the role they occupied in life, or I married him before he become a templar. It was definitely implied during the Circle quest that the Templar couldn't have a wife and family because of his templar role but always wanted one. Also you get all that banter with Alistair - although admittedly the Warden does say "if you were brought up in the Chantry, then have you never?" rather then just because he was training as a templar. And that stuff with a female mage warden and Cullen made me think that she was doubly forbidden fruit both because she was a mage and because of his vows of chastity but may be I was just jumping to conclusions. I originally got the impression that grey wardens weren't meant to marry and if they had families, had to forget them to concentrate on being a warden (which is what Nathaniel thought as well), then we met two examples of wardens who had wives waiting for them and expected to see them at some point. (I really felt that the wardens should have stuck to single people, widow/widowers, or at least married people past child bearing age - the whole Jordy thing really upset me)

As for redemption, it was filmed before DA2 came out and whilst Bioware were involved, they obviously didn't correct certain aspects that didn't fit with the subsequent computer game. For example, when talking about the collar for a sarabaas, Tallis holds up something resembling a dog collar (which oddly enough was how I envisaged it in DAO) but in DA2 the collar is a massive thing, more resembling the collar you would put on a ox to pull a plough and the actual leash is an electric cattle prod/taiser rod.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Wasn't there a thread about this some time ago where David Gaider said that templars are technically allowed to marry?

[Huntress]

I always thought, priests and brothers like Sebastian were the only one who couldn't have relations. And they are sent to a prison if they break that law.

Some templars and some mages are allow to get marry by the chantry and the circle approval. others are like Wesley marry before taking the bows and they are allow to continue their relation.

I know mages can't even dream of falling in love but they still can have relations and if from this union a child is born is removed to another circle or country when is still a baby. Wynne son's was taken when was still a baby.

[Tempest_]

Must admit, I was surprised that when I first saw Wesley and Aveline were married. Based on origins, I'd assumed their vows kept them from that. Maybe they had a similar marriage to the one Sebastian proposes to female Hawke?

Then again during the Aveline/Donnic quest, it is implied that it wasn't a chaste marriage.

Not sure what to make of it.

Modifié par Quote the Raven, 26 octobre 2011 - 11:35 .

[Gervaise]

Lily was sent to prison because she was aiding a proven blood mage, not because she broke her chastity vows - it was a combination of the two that did for her. I would imagine that a Chantry sister or brother who broke their vows would be required to do penance of some sort, which might involve spending some time in solitary contemplation, but not actual prison.

Sebastian essentially broke his vows in leaving the Chantry but all that happened was that Elthina would not allow him to return to full membership until he sorted out his priorities in his mind as she didn't want him continually chopping and changing. It was his choice to continue to adhere the his vow of chastity - bearing in mind that he had previously had plenty of wild living, he knew what he was missing and had decided it was no longer for him. (He says as much to Isabella)

Now depending on how you left things with Sebastian at the end of the game, there is the possibility that ultimately he will take up the role of ruler of Starkhaven, in which case his obligations will then require him produce an heir (which is where a female Hawke comes in), although I suppose he could be like Edward the Confessor who lived a chaste life and therefore had no offspring of his own - hence the dispute between Harold and William the Conqueror.

[Sinuphro]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sinuphro wrote...


but yep yep; bioware keeps contradicting itself:
1. first of all it was DA2 itself; how come the begining movie shows hawke as being able to transform into a dragon but on playing flemmeth says he can't turn into a dragon??

um... it didn't. It showed an exaggeration of Hawke defeating droves of Darkspawn with rather obviously heroic dialogue to make it seem as if he was pure Champion material from the start (which would've been nice. Not the "I kill everything!" but the sense of being just a badass in general).

Then eventually it cuts to Flemeth's dragon form before Varric is called out for his bull****.

Cue the actual game and Hawke eventually does meet Flemeth's dragon form.

2. how come is mage hawke able to use dragon claws to rip a darkspawn but flemmeth says he can't turn into a dragon??

It's not really dragon claws at all. It's more like Hawke is reaching his arms through a hole in the fabric of space itself and having more giant versions appear to rip apart an Ogre.

3. How come is it that in the opening movie hawke kills the arishok at the gallows meaning that the templars got wtfpwned but in the game the fight against the arishok is in the viscount's castle??

Actually it was clearly on the steps leading up to the Viscount's Keep.

4. How come is it that a mage trained by malcolm hawke and a grey warden mage cannot save bartrand's mind??

Grey Warden mage? Anders? Anders doesn't train Hawke. And Bartrand's corrupted mind has never been seen before and even conventional Spirit Healer magic can only heal him temporarily.

Perhaps in time Bartrand can be healed, but this is something that hasn't been seen before because the corruption the idol caused is again something new. No one in Thedas' current times has ever heard of red lyrium, save for the Dwarves who locked away the reports on the Primeval Thaig.

5. In DAO, demons could be expelled from a host; how come is it that in DA2 the keeper had to die in order for the demon to be expelled??

Probably because the ritual requires a significant number of mages and lyrium, and while the mages were certainly there the lyrium wasn't.

6. In legacy, how is it that Corypheus can manipulate the minds of people in kirkwall who are not grey wardens while he's asleep when the 1st grey warden clearly stated corypheus can only manipulate the minds of darkspawn and grey wardens near their calling?? If corypheus could manipulate the minds of all malcolm hawke would not have beeen able to seal him up.

THIS I agree on. It's a blatant contradiction of lore by Bioware that they gave in a DLC. They give us one thing and then give us another.

However the codex was only one Warden's speculations, so it's not fact. It's wrong actually.

Yep yep; Dragon Age franchise has definitely been messed up.

I think Bioware's winging it and doesn't really know what to do, and that makes me a sad panda.


EDIT: I was in sort of a bad mood when I posted, so the first sentence may have sounded rude.

at point 2...if they weren't dragon claws...why does mage hawke have the ability ingame??

at point 3...yes i strongly stand with the scene of the arishok slaying the king being at the gallows. in act 3; if u side with the mages u use a boat to get to the gallows. that scene was similar to the begining movie scene because, there was a sort of sea or river in DA2's opening movie. The viscount's place..i dun think it has water.

at point 4...i did not say anders trained hawk. What i meant was that...how come a hawke mage trained by malcolm hawke himself and a grey warden mage called anders together could not save bartrand's mind?

at point 5...lyrium was there. the templars were buying it from carta dwalves. I'm sure varric could easily hook it up for hawke.

Modifié par Sinuphro, 28 octobre 2011 - 02:51 .

[Sinuphro]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Mages don't take any vows. Templars and Sisters/Mothers do.

Wynne said herself that mages marrying was frowned upon, but mages often have one night stands. She's even admitted to having them herself.

Chances are that Wynne probably doesn't know who Rhys' father is.

mages sure they don't take any vows; however, the harrowing...if u fail it u get killed on the spot. it's a life or death time for a mage. templars and chantry ppl on the other hand only take some stupid vows. it is optional for templars to get addicted to lyrium.

[Sinuphro]

Wulfram wrote...

Templars don't take vows of chastity

http://social.biowar...x/4801810&lf=8)

edit: I do agree that Origins implied otherwise.  But Origins also seemed to depict the Templars as exclusively male, until Awakening.

templars were supposed to be males only while the women worked in the chantry as sisters so the nonesense with there being female templars is surprising when i came across it in DA2

[erilben]

Sinuphro wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Templars don't take vows of chastity

http://social.biowar...x/4801810&lf=8)

edit: I do agree that Origins implied otherwise.  But Origins also seemed to depict the Templars as exclusively male, until Awakening.

templars were supposed to be males only while the women worked in the chantry as sisters so the nonesense with there being female templars is surprising when i came across it in DA2

You just didn't see any female templars in Origins. You only saw a few of the templars after all. Alistair said in Origins that he had seen a picture of a female Warden that was once a templar.

Modifié par erilben, 28 octobre 2011 - 03:24 .

[Arthur Cousland]

I try to not think too hard on this stuff. Clearly the writers are making things up as they go and changing the lore where needed.

Also, only the tranquil and dwarves are supposed to be able to enchant items, but the enchanter/runesmith in Vigil's Keep in Awakening is clearly neither tranquil or dwarven.

[TJPags]

Sinuphro wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Templars don't take vows of chastity

http://social.biowar...x/4801810&lf=8)

edit: I do agree that Origins implied otherwise.  But Origins also seemed to depict the Templars as exclusively male, until Awakening.

templars were supposed to be males only while the women worked in the chantry as sisters so the nonesense with there being female templars is surprising when i came across it in DA2

Didn't play Awakening, did you?

[TEWR]

erilben wrote...

Sinuphro wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Templars don't take vows of chastity

http://social.biowar...x/4801810&lf=8)

edit: I do agree that Origins implied otherwise.  But Origins also seemed to depict the Templars as exclusively male, until Awakening.

templars were supposed to be males only while the women worked in the chantry as sisters so the nonesense with there being female templars is surprising when i came across it in DA2

You just didn't see any female templars in Origins. You only saw a few of the templars after all. Alistair said in Origins that he had seen a picture of a female Warden that was once a templar.

And Awakening had a female Templar as well. Also, the Templar that was possessed seemed to make comments towards recruites that his superiors found inappropriate, so it can be assumed those comments were made to female recruits