9 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

They're not building the Human Reaper because the genocide is for reproduction. They're doing it because Sovereign is dead. They're making a replacement, that's all.

First and foremost, they only started this after Sovereign was killed. He was in the Milky Way working on undoing the wrench that the Prothreans threw in the Reapers' gears for a thousand years. (Legion refers to Nazara contacting potential allies "over the millenia") If it was for reproductive purposes, why did they only decide on a target species and begin after Sovereign's death? Surely 1,000 years is long enough that Sovereign would have made a choice in species. I'd imagine the reason that the Collectors were buying people with mutations was to investigate their options should the need arise. The Reapers are supposedly very thorough (except for that derelict one they left around for 740 cycles, but that's another topic), it makes sense that they'd have a contingency in case one of them is killed in the war. Obviously it's happened before, again the derelict one. That's all it was. The contingency on the off-chance one of them died... which happened at the end of ME1.

Further, it makes no sense for them to want to reproduce much if at all. Their current fleet is obviously capable of getting the job done easily. They've done it apparently thousands of times. As organics, we have an urge to reproduce because it's in our natural instincts right next to "don't try to grab fire" and "run away from stuff with teeth bigger than your fist." Like those instincts, our species' survival depends upon us doing it. Reapers' survival doesn't depend on reproduction. Their natural lifespan is unlimited. So I ask you: why would they want to increase their numbers? I can see, however, why they would want to keep their numbers steady... which means making one Reaper to replace the one killed at the Battle of the Citadel.

Lastly, look at the Collector's methods. They didn't waste any potential slurpees. They paralyzed an entire colony, and took the entire colony. Alive. There was no unnecessary killing. The Reapers don't do that when they come. They simply kill en masse. That is incredibly wasteful if their goal were truly reproduction, and wasteful is the exact opposite of what their Collector slaves were when they were trying to build a Reaper.

So why give us the impression that the cycle is for reproduction? Because then we think that the mystery is solved, and when the real answer is revealed in ME3, minds explode doubly.

[didymos1120]

Rifneno wrote...

Lastly, look at the Collector's methods. They didn't waste any potential slurpees.

Uh, yeah they did.  What do you think all those husks, scions, and praetorians were made from?  Also, note the piles of corpses on the Collector Ship. You can see some more discarded corpses on the base too. 

[Bogsnot1]

Correlation =/= causation.
Sure, they only started after Sov was killed, but there is no evidence to support your claim that they were only doing it because Sov was killed.
Just because Legion stated "over the millenia" does not mean Sov was at it for a thousand years. When used in that context, it is taken to mean for over a thousand yesr, and most likely multiples thereof.

Unlimited lifespan does not mean Immortal.
The Collectors could be taking them alive for the simple reason as meat stays fresher longer, thus the DNA does not break down before it has a chance to be slushified.

[Rifneno]

didymos1120 wrote...

Uh, yeah they did.  What do you think all those husks, scions, and praetorians were made from?  Also, note the piles of corpses on the Collector Ship. You can see some more discarded corpses on the base too. 

Incorrect.  They specifically stated that the husks on Horizon were not made from the colonists because there were no husk creation spikes.  The only place we saw those spikes in ME2 was on the Derelict Reaper, which the Collectors had nothing to do with.  The Collector's own husks could have any number of origins.  Alien pirate ships that were in the wrong place at the wrong time, leftovers from past cycles, even Collectors cannibalizing their own.  Mordin tells you the piles of bodies on the ship were killed in experiments.  Even if the husks were human colonists, both of these are serving a purpose.  It's not wasteful.  Wasteful is roaming around London firing lasers at everyone in sight.

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Correlation =/= causation.
Sure, they only started after Sov was killed, but there is no evidence to support your claim that they were only doing it because Sov was killed.

There's no evidence to support your claim that they're only doing it for reproduction.  They use organic materials, but they could easily get it by cloning or keeping an enslaved race for a farm like the Collectors.  See how much fun circumstantial evidence is?

Just because Legion stated "over the millenia" does not mean Sov was at it for a thousand years. When used in that context, it is taken to mean for over a thousand yesr, and most likely multiples thereof.

Vigil also suggested Sovereign was at it for hundreds of years.  He also talks about how patient the Reapers are, and he'd know better than anyone else, having watching them wipe out his creators over a period of centuries.

Unlimited lifespan does not mean Immortal.
The Collectors could be taking them alive for the simple reason as meat stays fresher longer, thus the DNA does not break down before it has a chance to be slushified.

Obviously unlimited doesn't mean immortal.  What does that have to do with it?  Obviously they can be killed by others, but they aren't going to die of old age.  So going around starting genocide wars isn't the most brillaint way to stay alive.

[Bogsnot1]

Rifneno wrote...
Lastly, look at the Collector's methods. They didn't waste any potential slurpees.

Rifneno wrote...
Mordin tells you the piles of bodies on the ship were killed in experiments.

SOunds ilke they wasted some slurpees there.

There's no evidence to support your claim that they're only doing it for reproduction.  They use organic materials, but they could easily get it by cloning or keeping an enslaved race for a farm like the Collectors.  See how much fun circumstantial evidence is?

When you take Harby's smack-talk into account, there is more evidence for, than against.
“Relinquish your form to us.”
“Embrace perfection.”
“You cannot escape your destiny, Shepard.”
“I am the Harbinger of your perfection.”
“I am the Harbinger of your ascendance.”
“We are your genetic destiny.”
“We are the Harbinger of your ascendance.”
“You have merely delayed the inevitable.”
“Progress cannot be halted.”

Vigil also suggested Sovereign was at it for hundreds of years.  He also talks about how patient the Reapers are, and he'd know better than anyone else, having watching them wipe out his creators over a period of centuries.

You are failing to take the Rachni wars into account, which happened approximately 2200 years prior to the events of ME1. According to the Rachni queen on Novaria, it was the Reapers who "spoiled the song" of the previous queens to start the war in the first place. This leaves us with 2 possible scenarios.
1) Sov found the Rachni, judged them to be the superior lifeform currently available in the galaxy, corrupted them, and started the war in order to weaken the galactic forces, thus allowing him to waltz into the Citadel and activate the Citadel Relay. This plan was foiled when the Salarians uplifted the Krogan, and said "Sick'em Wrex" (OK, that was a bad joke)
2) There was some form of pan-galactic communication happening between another Reaper and the Rachni, somewhat akin to Harby and the Collectors. When you take some peoples theory into account that Harby is actually a Prothean Reaper, and that genetic link is what allows his pan-galactic communications, this scenario is less likely than the first.

Either way, Sov would have been in action in teh shadows for at least 2000 years, and not just 1000.

Obviously unlimited doesn't mean immortal.  What does that have to do with it?  Obviously they can be killed by others, but they aren't going to die of old age.  So going around starting genocide wars isn't the most brillaint way to stay alive.

With great power, comes great arrogance. Never before has any race prevented the Reapers from doing the Zerg Rush on the Citadel. Swoop in, take control, close off the relay network, and isolate the world from each other. Once isolated, the Reapers would go from system to system, destroying whatever resistance was in their way, and taking whatever resources and racial specimens they required.
The Protheans changed all that, when they tampered with the Keepers. This meant Sov wasnt able to just simply send the signal to the Keepers to get them to open the Citadel Relay, and that Sov had to override it manually. Given their awesome power, and the fact they had never really been stopped before, they had no reason to believe that they would be stopped now.
Plan A involved the Rachni. The events of ME1 have shown us how quickly they can produce offspring, and warriors of calibre. A genocidal war, using the Rachni as foot soldiers, wouldnt have worried the Reapers greatly, as once the resistance was overcome, the Rachni queens would have been pumping out genetic material to make the next Reaper.
Plan B, was almost the same as Plan A, only it involved the Geth as foot soldiers, and that they would not have had subservient queens to produce offspring to make the new reaper, but with the galaxy under control, they would have been able to scour it for potential recruits. It could have been humans, they might have cured the Krogan, or possible even set up the Yagh with breeding pens and "ascended them".

Modifié par Bogsnot1, 25 octobre 2011 - 10:00 .

[d1sciple]

hmmm. agree that it's not about reproduction, but completely disagree about mostly everything else.

the Reapers create a new Reaper every cycle, EVERY cycle, and the resulting God looks similar to the species it was 'made from'. so anything to do with shep etc. doesn't work here, his actions might of been what made the reapers decide to choose humans this cycle, but nothing else is going on, no vendettas.

these husks are advanced, the Geth husks are crude and only based on reaper tech, the Collectors ARE Reaper tech, the husks they make are far more advanced and aren't created using spikes. also they've been 'collecting' humans for hundreds of years, and not only humans but they've dealt with slavers for all the species of the galaxy, millions and millions of husks with nothing to do with a tiny colony like Horizon.

there's more than one dead Reaper out there, and evidence of an ancient, space-faring race millions of years old. those 2 things tell us that one they can 'die', and two that they've been doing this far too long to be bad at it. in hundreds of millons of years they've made a couple of mistakes, most notably not finding Ilos. not bad going, but still, not god-like perfect.

repro is an utterly weak explanation. there would be no need for any explanations about anything else whatsoever, no origin story etc. and no reason for both Sov and Harby to speak the way they do, with an utter contempt for life. just oh it's to survive, just forget about them being an AI or who created them, it's answer enough.
but then again so is the idea that Reapers are 'saving' organic life, that's similarly weak as that just makes them Borg.

Modifié par d1sciple, 25 octobre 2011 - 10:45 .

[Rifneno]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

SOunds ilke they wasted some slurpees there.

I guess we have different definitions of waste then. IMO, if they used those people for something to advance or possibly advance their goal, then they weren't wasted. I just meant that the Collectors weren't killing for the lulz when they were trying to build a Reaper. Which is pretty much what the actual Reapers do. If the Reapers are wiping everyone out for the same purpose as the Collectors abducting colonists, why is one killing everything in sight and the other is preserving what they can?

Obviously they don't need everyone if they're only going to build one Reaper... but why would they only build one? Why waste the chance to make more? If their goal is really reproduction, why stop at 1 when you can have 10? That's incredibly wasteful, which is something they don't strike me as.

When you take Harby's smack-talk into account, there is more evidence for, than against.
“Relinquish your form to us.”
“Embrace perfection.”
“You cannot escape your destiny, Shepard.”
“I am the Harbinger of your perfection.”
“I am the Harbinger of your ascendance.”
“We are your genetic destiny.”
“We are the Harbinger of your ascendance.”
“You have merely delayed the inevitable.”
“Progress cannot be halted.”

Oh I'm not arguing that they wouldn't want Shepard's uber DNA in their new Reaper. Sure they would. I'm just saying that their ultimate goal isn't simply reproduction. Frankly, I have no idea what is. But I find a lot of flaws in the idea that they're only doing it to make more of themselves. And I've always found the "doing it to preserve or ascend a species" theory a little whacky. They seem to detest organics, why would they want to help them in any way?

For example, have you ever chatted up Mordin a lot and gotten his "tracked descent of Protheans into Collectors" chat that ends in that wonderful singing number before getting the Collectors=Protheans reveal? I did it once and he had some interesting new things to say that he doesn't bother with if the team knows why these things are. For instance, Collectors' weapons are designed to be painful for them to use. Long term use causes some kind of permanent damage, I believe he said. They also don't bother treating their wounds. If they break a bone or something in their day-to-day life, they just live with it rather than treating it. That the Reapers put their slaves through completely needless suffering for no reason shows how they detest organics. So I seriously doubt the "preserving/ascending" species theory. But I digress, I seem to have gotten off track...

Either way, Sov would have been in action in teh shadows for at least 2000 years, and not just 1000.

Wait, I thought you were arguing that he wasn't trolling the Milky Way very long. Yeah, you're probably right that he was around for longer than I said. I was just going with the 1,000 because it already seemed long enough that Sovereign should've picked out the next host species by then. My point was just that: Sovereign had been watching long enough that they would've already made a choice. So either the choice was made solely because humans killed Sovereign, or they only built the new one to replace the one they lost. If it was the former, how did they choose the other times? One of them is rarely killed I'm sure, and they had ample time to make the decision the usual way.

With great power, comes great arrogance. Never before has any race prevented the Reapers from doing the Zerg Rush on the Citadel. Swoop in, take control, close off the relay network, and isolate the world from each other. Once isolated, the Reapers would go from system to system, destroying whatever resistance was in their way, and taking whatever resources and racial specimens they required.

I always found that claim to be pretty much impossible to prove and fairly unlikely. Vigil says that's the way it was, but there's no way he could know for sure. The Reapers have a great clean-up crew as there's very little to be found even of the species before the Protheans. Any claims on how the previous hundreds to thousands of cycles went is purely speculation. The reason I find it unlikely that it always went that way is because I can't imagine in all those cycles, not ONE species found it too suspicious or risky to put their head of governments there. But I guess I'm going off track again.

The Protheans changed all that, when they tampered with the Keepers. This meant Sov wasnt able to just simply send the signal to the Keepers to get them to open the Citadel Relay, and that Sov had to override it manually. Given their awesome power, and the fact they had never really been stopped before, they had no reason to believe that they would be stopped now.

They've never lost the war, but there's been casualties on their side I'm sure. At the earliest, they would've learned the lesson that they can lose one of their own 37 million years ago. So they plan for the possibility of a Reaper death the same way they planned for the possibility of something going wrong by leaving one of their own (Sovereign) behind to keep an eye on things. They may be arrogant, but they're not foolish.

[Uncle Jo]

Rifneno wrote...

They're not building the Human Reaper because the genocide is for reproduction. They're doing it because Sovereign is dead. They're making a replacement, that's all.

First and foremost, they only started this after Sovereign was killed. He was in the Milky Way working on undoing the wrench that the Prothreans threw in the Reapers' gears for a thousand years. (Legion refers to Nazara contacting potential allies "over the millenia") If it was for reproductive purposes, why did they only decide on a target species and begin after Sovereign's death?

*snip*

Further, it makes no sense for them to want to reproduce much if at all. Their current fleet is obviously capable of getting the job done easily. They've done it apparently thousands of times.

*snip*

So I ask you: why would they want to increase their numbers? I can see, however, why they would want to keep their numbers steady... which means making one Reaper to replace the one killed at the Battle of the Citadel.

*snip*

So why give us the impression that the cycle is for reproduction? Because then we think that the mystery is solved, and when the real answer is revealed in ME3, minds explode doubly.

I always had a problem with the human reaper (can you seriously imagine that thing flying in the space?)

More seriously, I think that the Reapers are "reaping" to replace their eventual losses, but also to enhance their genetic material (since they're partly organic) and maybe also get some tech upgrades (who knows)...

The Reapers are targeting in fact just one Race per cycle (in this one the humans), the most compatible one. They wipe out (or fully indoctrinate) the rest of the advanced species to prevent them to tell the truth to the next ones. No witness, no crime.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 14 mai 2012 - 11:52 .

[Biotic_Warlock]

Reproduction?

They are machines they don't reproduce.

[Get Magna Carter]

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

Reproduction?

They are machines they don't reproduce.

1) in ME2 reapers have an organic componant

2) even if they were just machines they could build more which qualifies as reproduction
(the fact that they have organic material makes their reproduction highly inefficient and their greatest weakness... a military tactic combining hard hitting attacks and a brutal variation of a "scorched earth" to kill anyone taken prisonner by the reapers could make the war a net loss for the reapers)