160 réponses à ce sujet

[Izhalezan]

Sorry OP, Shepard isn't 10 feet tall with lightning shooting out of his eyes.....

[Arkitekt]

Shep is extracted in the beggining with Anderson's and VS's help.

Tough luck OP.


/thread

[Luckywallace]

I agree that I hate it in most fiction when a hero (or heroes) are captured by enemies who by all logical rights should kill them on the spot but they instead get locked up and then rescued later on.

***SPOILERS FOR DRAGON AGE 2***

I really didn't like it in MotA when this happens with Tallis, the Duke should have killed her and Hawke on the spot.

So far ME has been good at always allowing Shepard to prove himself awesome and effective. Apparently Arrival had a scripted sequence where, despte how well you play, Shepard is always defeated and captured - that sounded utterly lame to me so I skipped on Arrival.

The sequence in DA: Origins of rescuing Anora where you *can* be captured but can also fight your way through if your good enough (which I did, praise to mage AOE spells!) was perfect.

[onelifecrisis]

Inprea wrote...

For me such moments really diminish a hero or if I were to put it in mathmatical terms Apparent ability level = Ability level/2^n where n is the number of times the character has been rescued from such situation. Naturally if said character is never rescued such that n = 0 then Apparent ability level = ability level as the character has suffered no degradation.

I love that you have a formula for that.

[AntiChri5]

So, basically, you want Shepard to be a blatant power fantasy, rather then an actual character?

I'll pass.

[AntiChri5]

I really didn't like it in MotA when this happens with Tallis, the Duke should have killed her and Hawke on the spot.

He wanted to, but Salit made their deal conditional upon the Duke not harming Talis. The Duke says he should have done so anyway.

This instance of "Oh i will just keep my unbeatable nemesis alive the only time they are vulnerable" is fine, because it is given a reasonable explanation.

So far ME has been good at always allowing Shepard to prove himself awesome and effective. Apparently Arrival had a scripted sequence where, despte how well you play, Shepard is always defeated and captured - that sounded utterly lame to me so I skipped on Arrival.

There is a difference between being defeated and getting knocked out. You can get through it undefeated, but then the Reaper artifact knocks you out.

[LOLandStuff]

I want to be a damsel in distress.

[Destroy Raiden_]

I was upset I wasn't rescued from being hacked and made into a puppet by Tali (my LI) and Legion who couldn't hack through a door and save my ass! Then we couldn't even bring it up afterwards and say wtf you didn't help me! There was a time shep could've need some saving when he's literally a human puppet!

[Inprea]

I swear it's no wonder starts of such threads don't reply to everyone
there's just too many people to argue with. Sort of have to pick and
choose especially as some comments were already made by someone else.



[quote]AdmiralCheez
wrote...



Okay,
OP, what if Shep had to be rescued, but was already in the middle of
busting out when help arrived?



Squadmate
1: Shepard! We're here to... oh.
Shepard:
Ohai gaiz. *shoots guard*
Squadmate
2: For f*ck's sake, really?



Anyway,
OP, if there's one thing I expect for ME3, it's that Shep is going to
NEED his/her team at some point. So far, the whole galaxy has been
expecting Shepard to solve everyone's problems. The commander needs
to be on the other end for once.[/quote]



I'm personally opposed to the capture in general or a forced capture as
that means the enemy wasn't wise enough to kill shepeard while he was
vulnerable. I wouldn't mind a situation in which for one reason or
another Shepeard gets separated from his team. when three atlas mechs
get dumped into the room. Shepeard actually responds by calling for
help realizing that this is a very bad situation. Now it's up to the
player to succeed or fail.



If you get killed quickly you die and the mission fails, if you hold out
long enough but go down your squad mates rush in just in time to save
you and if you're proficient enough with your character you manage to
out fight all three atlas mechs the door suddenly opens and to have
Shepeard's squad mates step in only to find three totaled atlast
mechs and a rather proud looking Shepeard.



[quote]Gabey5
wrote...



No.
Having shepard being able to fend off every attack belittles the
enemies [/quote]



Which is once again covered by a tactical retreat or an extraction. Not
needing rescued doesn't mean stands and fights in every situation. It
means knowing when it's time to fall back. How many times will this
comment be made?



[quote]CamlTowPetttingZoo
wrote...



[quote]Inprea
wrote...



[quote]CamlTowPetttingZoo
wrote...



[quote]Someone
With Mass wrote...



Does
Legion arriving with a geth transport as a Reaper is emerging from
the ground count as rescue?[/quote]



So Shepard should really not be rescued in that instance? Cause at the
moment i can't see anyway out of that situation without a rescue
being involved. I'm fine with my Shepard having to be rescued.



[/quote]



Did you miss the part about a tactical retreat or the word extraction in
my very first post?



[/quote]



Over looked where you said extraction. Still i don't see a problem with a
hero needing a rescue, it makes the story more believable when the
hero is someone who does amazing things, but still needs to be pulled
from the fire on occasion.



[/quote]



So how many times must the hero be pulled from the fire before it
becomes ridiculous? So far Shepeard has been brought back from the
dead and only got away from arrival because the enemy decided to keep
a mech control terminal in a detention cell. Thus Shepeard was saved
by unrealistic enemy incompetence. Also it's not like Shepeard pulled
the doors open in the collector base with his/her own two hands.
He/she had to rely on her/his team in that moment but still wasn't
reduced to a helpless state.



[quote]Ahglock
wrote...



In games I hate pretty much all forced rescues. I don't mind a you need
a rescue because you suck and got shot in the face, but I hate it
when not matter how good you do cut scene X makes you suck ass for a
while so plot device or character X can rescue you. It really removes
incentives to excel when no matter how good you do, you will fail in
a cut scene. [/quote]



Nice to know I'm not entirely alone in this.



[quote]lovgreno
wrote...



Shepard is a bit too MarySueish already, let him/her fail and need a rescue
now and then so it doesn't get boring. Also, we want a realy scary
and powerful enemy to make Shepard more heroic right? At least it
seems like that kind of story to me. Therefore this enemy needs to
beat Shepard a few times, if the enemy fails to do this they are not
realy a threat to anyone.



And as a bonus it gives the writers the opportunity to let us play as
someone else for a change, hopefully it will mean more action that
limping through the Normandys corridors avoiding scions
though.[/quote]



You say need rescuing now and again. However this makes me think of some
cartoons. The hero is always overwhelmed at some point in the show
and needs allies to come rescue them or the enemy to make some
foolish mistake. Eventually it stops being a humanizing element and
becomes, "Wow he/she sure is lucky that everyone he/she is
fighting is a moron. That or the god of fate must simply have decided
she won't die no matter what."




Shepeard has already been saved from death by Cerberus and saved in arrival by
enemy incompetence how many more times before Shepeard enters the
state of early morning cartoon character?



[quote]Xeranx
wrote...



[quote]Ahglock
wrote...



In games I hate pretty much all forced rescues. I don't mind a you need
a rescue because you suck and got shot in the face, but I hate it
when not matter how good you do cut scene X makes you suck ass for a
while so plot device or character X can rescue you. It really removes
incentives to excel when no matter how good you do, you will fail in
a cut scene. [/quote]



It depends on how it's done/approached. You're talking about obvious
failings on the part of your character despite all preparations
towards a successful outcome and I agree with that. However, your
character failing and needing to be rescued due to a handicap that
exists or develops is something I can get behind.




The Virmire situation for example was greatly downplayed for me when I
experimented with saving Kaidan (I left him with the bomb) leaving
Ashley with the STG team and finding the STG team in the cargo area
afterwords. I was wondering, "so why couldn't I save Ashley?"
That's not a situation I want to revisit, but it happens again in
ME2 where a loyal squad mate (after trekking through the tubes and
surviving) dies because the 1st team squad leader was normal or
inadequate for the position they were assigned to. It doesn't make
sense.
[/quote]



Doesn't this then depend on how well prepared your character actually is? One
example I can think of is the vigil's keep in awakening. If you
aren't willing to spend the coin and find all the resources that are
needed the vigil falls and thus as a commander you've failed. On the
other hand if you spend the coin and get every upgrade possible the
vigil stands as you took the time and expended the resources needed
to prepare. I'm fine with failing so long as the failure is indeed
mine as a player but I'm not okay with it being forced upon me no
matter how well prepared I am.



[quote]Robuthad
wrote...



Um, Shep needed rescuing on Arrival. But nobody helped him.
So he slept for 2 days and then kicked some ass. He def doesn't need
anybody's people saving skills[/quote]



I disagree. He was helped by overwhelming enemy incompetence as they
left a mech control terminal in the room and didn't even think to
disable it. That and they relied on sedatives alone to keep Shepeard
down whenever it might have taken them two minutes to chain his/her
legs to the table. He was saved by incompetent enemies.



[quote]Garrison2009
wrote...



The simple point is that sometimes things are beyond our, or (in this
case...) Shepard's control. As much as you may hate a cut-scene or
something happening in the story that leaves Shepard in a position
where he/she is all out of tricks and needs some serious help, it is
realistic that at SOME time in the future SOMETHING like that will
eventually happen, just like the Normandy being destroyed in ME2.



As I said, things happen that are beyond our control and if we make
Shepard out to be someone where nothing is beyond his/her control...
Than what's really the point of the game? At that point, it's just
'mega-awesome-god-Shepard blows all the Reapers up. The End.' There
would be nothing surprising story-wise, no plot-twists, we wouldn’t
really care about the character as he/she would be invincible, and we
might as well go back and play Mario or something. The story would
pretty much be equivalent to one of the Italian Plumber's journeys...



[/quote]



You don't need to take control away from the player to put interesting
plot twist into a story. You also seem to be missing the part where I
said a tactical retreat or an extraction. Needing to run away during
times of war is expected however I'd like Shepeard to at least be
part of that escape and not just standing there waiting for something
or someone to save him/her.



[quote]Arkitekt
wrote...



Shep is extracted in the beginning with Anderson's and VS's help.



Tough
luck OP.






/thread[/quote]



I'm beginning to think some of you people are illiterate. I said in my
very first post, "I'm not talking about a tactical retreat here
that's understandable and I'm not talking about an extraction."




[quote]Luckywallace
wrote...



I agree that I hate it in most fiction when a hero (or heroes) are
captured by enemies who by all logical rights should kill them on the
spot but they instead get locked up and then rescued later on.



***SPOILERS
FOR DRAGON AGE 2***



I really didn't like it in MotA when this happens with Tallis, the Duke
should have killed her and Hawke on the spot.



So far ME has been good at always allowing Shepard to prove himself
awesome and effective. Apparently Arrival had a scripted sequence
where, despite how well you play, Shepard is always defeated and
captured - that sounded utterly lame to me so I skipped on Arrival.



The sequence in DA: Origins of rescuing Anora where you *can* be captured
but can also fight your way through if your good enough (which I did,
praise to mage AOE spells!) was perfect.[/quote]



Even though I enjoyed Mota I'm rather inclined to agree with you about
that detail. Been much better if you could have tried to fight your
way out.



[quote]onelifecrisis
wrote...



[quote]Inprea
wrote...



For me such moments really diminish a hero or if I were to put it in
mathematical terms Apparent ability level = Ability level/2^n where n
is the number of times the character has been rescued from such
situation. Naturally if said character is never rescued such that n =
0 then Apparent ability level = ability level as the character has
suffered no degradation.[/quote]



{smilie}



I love that you have a formula for that.



[/quote]



I find that math help express ones thoughts better then words alone.
Even if it's not true math as I can't note any test don't to actually
develop the formula.




[quote]AntiChri5
wrote...



So, basically, you want Shepard to be a blatant power fantasy, rather
then an actual character?



I'll pass.[/quote]



So you want to completely ignore the part where I said I don't mind
Shepeard knowing when to retreat? I believe several of you don't
really read what was said but only read what you want to.



[quote]AntiChri5
wrote...



I really didn't like it in MotA when this happens with Tallis, the Duke
should have killed her and Hawke on the spot.






He wanted to, but Salit made their deal conditional upon the Duke not
harming Talis. The Duke says he should have done so anyway.



This instance of "Oh i will just keep my unbeatable nemesis alive the
only time they are vulnerable" is fine, because it is given a
reasonable explanation.



So far ME has been good at always allowing Shepard to prove himself
awesome and effective. Apparently Arrival had a scripted sequence
where, despite how well you play, Shepard is always defeated and
captured - that sounded utterly lame to me so I skipped on Arrival.






There is a difference between being defeated and getting knocked out. You
can get through it undefeated, but then the Reaper artifact knocks
you out.[/quote]



How is that realistic based on the Duke's behavior? Especially given that
he's fine killing Salit. You're also forgetting one very simple
detail. That deal if indeed there was one I didn't notice it was not
to kill Talis. It in no way shape or form included not killing Hawke.
So no it does not have a reasonable explanation it's another
situation where writers completely ignore a characters persona
throughout the vast majority of the story and make them mind
numbingly incompetent just to save the hero.



As for arrival. Being knocked out by means he/she was defeated by the
artifact or in other words the trap that his/her enemies bated him
into.

[quote]LOLandStuff
wrote...


I want to be a damsel in distress. [/quote]



With a pretty pink dress?

Modifié par Inprea, 26 octobre 2011 - 03:40 .

[ReallyRue]

I'd love it if Shepard had to be rescued by his/her party, similar to DAO's Fort Drakon and DA2's MotA parts.

[Xeranx]

biomag wrote...

I definitely don't want to play as another character in this series ever again. This is about Shepard and while I accept a small Joker part in ME 2, I don't want to get out of character again. So rescuing yourself playing as someone else doesn't appeal to me at all.

Sitting there an watching others plan and attack and liberate my Shepard in a long scene where I can't do anything in the middle of the game sounds also disconnecting.

Also getting rescued and just watch a scene for a long time without any influence on the situation as Shepard isn't something I want to see... and if you read the first post you will see that's what the OP was talking about, no tactical support or help is part of his complain.

Still I disagree with the OP about the point that it would diminish Shepard to be in a helpless situation (again). I just don't like the options of handling the situation the way I described above. I was already pissed about how though my Shepard became when he charged the big fat guy from the last DLC... sorry, but no human should be able to beat that beast hand to hand.

I don't know how you expect to influence an outcome if your character is locked up and needs to be broken out.  Do you plan to bash your fists against the wall in a futile manner of escape?

The funny thing about this is you've said the story is about Shepard while at the same time make the assumption that a rescue attempt to get Shepard back would make it not about Shepard.  When you take over another character to rescue your protagonist it's quite clear that the story will not move beyond the current situation until the protagonist is recovered.  So how would it not be about Shepard?  You'd have a point if the newly available character were to continue on where Shepard left off, but if the case is a rescue of Shepard then the story is still about Shepard.

DA:O was about the blight coming back to Ferelden featuring the Warden as the main protagonist.  At no point (except DLC) was the Warden not a focus.  The rescue attempt, if the Warden was imprisoned, also centered around him or her.  Nothing moved until the Warden became a part of it.  So I don't know how a rescue being mounted for a Shepard stuck in a box with no means of escape hurts Shepard's story.

Also, keep in mind that if you're controlling a character that is mounting a rescue to get back Shepard or any other protagonist.  If anything special happens (positive or negative) it was influenced by the need of Shepard or any other protagonist.  It can be done very well and still leave plenty for Shepard or any protagonist to do.  Look at the co-op piece that's coming out.  From what I've read/heard, that's exactly what's going to happen.  You, as Shepard, affect what's going on because you're spurring people to action.  Even if it's not as grand as that, the fact that Shepard stopped the initial invasion and gave everyone else a chance to fight is still huge.

[Garrison2009]

I understand perfectly what you're saying Inprea about the whole tactical retreat and all... And yes, it makes sense. Falling back sometimes is necessary. My point is that sometimes, in war, even that is not an option. You're whole problem seems to stem from the fact that you do not wish to see your female Shepard portrayed once as weak or unable to cope with a problem that arises. If this is what you want in a protagonist than I suggest you look elsewhere in the gaming world... Shepard, male or female, is a human being and thus susceptible to making mistakes, getting him/herself into situations where external help might be needed, etc. If the Reapers can never even once gain an advantage over Shepard personally, not just on a war/combat level where a tactical retreat would be possible, but instead on a level that actually makes you fear for our hero's safety... Then, once again, we might as well all go back and play Mario for all the character he/she will have.

Modifié par Garrison2009, 26 octobre 2011 - 04:03 .

[Xeranx]

Inprea wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

In games I hate pretty much all forced rescues. I don't mind a you need a rescue because you suck and got shot in the face, but I hate it when not matter how good you do cut scene X makes you suck ass for a while so plot device or character X can rescue you. It really removes incentives to excel when no matter how good you do, you will fail in a cut scene.

It depends on how it's done/approached. You're talking about obvious failings on the part of your character despite all preparations towards a successful outcome and I agree with that. However, your character failing and needing to be rescued due to a handicap that exists or develops is something I can get behind.

The Virmire situation for example was greatly downplayed for me when I experimented with saving Kaidan (I left him with the bomb) leaving Ashley with the STG team and finding the STG team in the cargo area afterwords. I was wondering, "so why couldn't I save Ashley?"  That's not a situation I want to revisit, but it happens again in
ME2 where a loyal squad mate (after trekking through the tubes and surviving) dies because the 1st team squad leader was normal or inadequate for the position they were assigned to. It doesn't make sense.

Doesn't this then depend on how well prepared your character actually is? One example I can think of is the vigil's keep in awakening. If you aren't willing to spend the coin and find all the resources that are needed the vigil falls and thus as a commander you've failed. On the other hand if you spend the coin and get every upgrade possible the vigil stands as you took the time and expended the resources needed to prepare. I'm fine with failing so long as the failure is indeed mine as a player but I'm not okay with it being forced upon me no matter how well prepared I am.

As I said before, it can be done right so that the event is completely logical.  Ultimately it serves a factor of making the protagonist more human.  Why?  Even the best laid plans can fail.  That's a truth that can't ever be circumvented.

In another thread (or maybe this one), I expressed my dislike of characters who always manage to come out unscathed despite getting into the thick of things.  It's like the writer can't bear to put their character(s) through the ringer and have those people come out scarred.  This is especially true of female characters.  

Frankly I can't take a character seriously if they're always unaffected physically and/or mentally by the things they go through.  This is why I hated what they did in the Spider-man movies with making his webbing organic when he was supposed to toil for the money he'd need to get the supplies he'd use to make said webbing, all while attending school and helping his aunt.  

A protagonist needs to suffer in order for a person to try to get an idea of what the protagonist is feeling.  That connection attempts to put you in the character's headspace.  Without that there's no point in trying to understand the character.  In the case of a game, that translates to wanting everyone to succeed.  If I'm playing another character trying to rescue the protagonist, I'm interested in seeing that character or group of characters succeed in rescuing the protagonist so that when I take control of said protagonist I'm much more interested in doing what needs to be done to succeed.  

Once again, I'm put into the protagonist's headspace though it's a bit different.  The protagonist is now geared to tear through any and all opposition because they were sidetracked from a goal they were interested in meeting.  You as the player are geared to tear through any and all opposition because your protagonist was sidelined or sidetracked from making any influential marks in trying to meet your goal.  As a result, every skirmish is feels (though it actually is) that much more integral to your objective.  At the same time, every newly overcome obstacle is another victory.  If you've ever done something to see the rewards as you're working and know that you want those rewards to keep coming because they make you feel good - it's like a shot of adrenaline that keeps you coming back for more.  Another kick in the pants as it were.

[Garrison2009]

Xeranx wrote...

Inprea wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

In games I hate pretty much all forced rescues. I don't mind a you need a rescue because you suck and got shot in the face, but I hate it when not matter how good you do cut scene X makes you suck ass for a while so plot device or character X can rescue you. It really removes incentives to excel when no matter how good you do, you will fail in a cut scene.

It depends on how it's done/approached. You're talking about obvious failings on the part of your character despite all preparations towards a successful outcome and I agree with that. However, your character failing and needing to be rescued due to a handicap that exists or develops is something I can get behind.

The Virmire situation for example was greatly downplayed for me when I experimented with saving Kaidan (I left him with the bomb) leaving Ashley with the STG team and finding the STG team in the cargo area afterwords. I was wondering, "so why couldn't I save Ashley?"  That's not a situation I want to revisit, but it happens again in
ME2 where a loyal squad mate (after trekking through the tubes and surviving) dies because the 1st team squad leader was normal or inadequate for the position they were assigned to. It doesn't make sense.

Doesn't this then depend on how well prepared your character actually is? One example I can think of is the vigil's keep in awakening. If you aren't willing to spend the coin and find all the resources that are needed the vigil falls and thus as a commander you've failed. On the other hand if you spend the coin and get every upgrade possible the vigil stands as you took the time and expended the resources needed to prepare. I'm fine with failing so long as the failure is indeed mine as a player but I'm not okay with it being forced upon me no matter how well prepared I am.

As I said before, it can be done right so that the event is completely logical.  Ultimately it serves a factor of making the protagonist more human.  Why?  Even the best laid plans can fail.  That's a truth that can't ever be circumvented.

In another thread (or maybe this one), I expressed my dislike of characters who always manage to come out unscathed despite getting into the thick of things.  It's like the writer can't bear to put their character(s) through the ringer and have those people come out scarred.  This is especially true of female characters.  

Frankly I can't take a character seriously if they're always unaffected physically and/or mentally by the things they go through.  This is why I hated what they did in the Spider-man movies with making his webbing organic when he was supposed to toil for the money he'd need to get the supplies he'd use to make said webbing, all while attending school and helping his aunt.  

A protagonist needs to suffer in order for a person to try to get an idea of what the protagonist is feeling.  That connection attempts to put you in the character's headspace.  Without that there's no point in trying to understand the character.  In the case of a game, that translates to wanting everyone to succeed.  If I'm playing another character trying to rescue the protagonist, I'm interested in seeing that character or group of characters succeed in rescuing the protagonist so that when I take control of said protagonist I'm much more interested in doing what needs to be done to succeed.  

Once again, I'm put into the protagonist's headspace though it's a bit different.  The protagonist is now geared to tear through any and all opposition because they were sidetracked from a goal they were interested in meeting.  You as the player are geared to tear through any and all opposition because your protagonist was sidelined or sidetracked from making any influential marks in trying to meet your goal.  As a result, every skirmish is feels (though it actually is) that much more integral to your objective.  At the same time, every newly overcome obstacle is another victory.  If you've ever done something to see the rewards as you're working and know that you want those rewards to keep coming because they make you feel good - it's like a shot of adrenaline that keeps you coming back for more.  Another kick in the pants as it were.

Excellent! Thank you, sir, this was my point exactly!

[JamieCOTC]

I am a little tired of the types of rescues OP mentioned, which seem more like plot elements that become plot devices that's only purpose is to move the story forward. Its sole purpose is to get the PC from point A to point B. Shepard dying and being brought back to life at the beginning of ME2 is the classic example of this. On the other hand, Shep being rescued at the beginning of ME3 appears to handle it a bit better as it looks like Anderson will stay behind. In that way, the rescue does more than merely put the PC in a specific situation. In other words, there is depth to it. I'm not a fan of wasted potential be it a rescue or anything else.

That said, if it were handled well, I would love Shep to be rescued in ME3.

[Alamar2078]

How about letting people write their own story with Shep instead of shoe-horning a forced damsel-in-distress situation?

In an RPG that's all about writing your own story how about letting a capture scenario be optional or depend on Shep's choices?? Shep already surrenders for the trial so the option for this sort of things could be implemented elsewhere.

Perhaps in another hostage situation [like in LotSB] maybe we have an option to surrender and would need to be rescued. Maybe other options are to let the hostage die, try to snipe the hostage taker, get the hostage taker monologueing, etc. This way if you want to be rescued so you can empathize then good ... if you don't want to get slapped around more than you have already then also good. You can write your own story and go from there to get the experience you want.

Modifié par Alamar2078, 26 octobre 2011 - 05:50 .

[Garrison2009]

Alamar2078 wrote...

How about letting people write their own story with Shep instead of shoe-horning a forced damsel-in-distress situation?

In an RPG that's all about writing your own story how about letting a capture scenario be optional or depend on Shep's choices?? Shep already surrenders for the trial so the option for this sort of things could be implemented elsewhere.

Perhaps in another hostage situation [like in LotSB] maybe we have an option to surrender and would need to be rescued. Maybe other options are to let the hostage die, try to snipe the hostage taker, get the hostage taker monologueing, etc. This way if you want to be rescued so you can empathize then good ... if you don't want to get slapped around more than you have already then also good. You can write your own story and go from there to get the experience you want.

But once again, this scenario (That you just laid out) while plausible and a good idea, makes things... less interesting. Nothing is spontaneous or takes you by surprise. You decide what happens and you expect the outcome of that decision as a result. There's no moment where your jaw drops open from something that just happened, once again making Shepard another Italian Plumber-like character, because he/she is never truly in danger and nothing unexpected ever happens to him/her. You see it all coming miles away... Which equals boring...

[Candidate 88766]

As long as its not contrived, being rescued shows that even Shepard is vulnerable, and that he isn't some all powerful superhero. He's already kinda been rescued by Liara, and I think its a nice change for Shepard to be rescued as opposed to Shepard doing the rescuing.

I was actually hoping ME3 would start with some squadmembers rescuing Shepard from imprisonment, but the intro sounds pretty awesome as it is.

[Inprea]

Garrison2009 wrote...

I
understand perfectly what you're saying Inprea about the whole
tactical retreat and all... And yes, it makes sense. Falling back
sometimes is necessary. My point is that sometimes, in war, even that
is not an option. You're whole problem seems to stem from the fact
that you do not wish to see your female Shepard portrayed once as
weak or unable to cope with a problem that arises. If this is what
you want in a protagonist than I suggest you look elsewhere in the
gaming world... Shepard, male or female, is a human being and thus
susceptible to making mistakes, getting him/herself into situations
where external help might be needed, etc. If the Reapers can never
even once gain an advantage over Shepard personally, not just on a
war/combat level where a tactical retreat would be possible, but
instead on a level that actually makes you fear for our hero's
safety... Then, once again, we might as well all go back and play
Mario for all the character he/she will have.

You may be content having a failure forced upon your character but I am not. I don't consider such forced
defeats a humanizing event I consider them destruction of the characters image. As far as games go I believe Bioware did it right when saving Anora and another good example would be Suikoden 2 if you ever played it. In Suikoden two they were several insanely difficult fights that the player could still lose but the storyline continue they could also be won though. In both games the defeat is up to the player and how well they developed their character.




You say that Shepeard is a human being. How human are you though after you've killed a Threshermaw on foot?
After you've stood up to a literal horde of trained soldiers rushing you backed up by mechs? When you've stood facing a reaper while being swarmed by hostile collectors even if that reaper isn't complete? When you've walked into a major mercenary groups compound and slaughtered everyone there? After you've been returned from the dead with your body infused with who knows what artificial parts and then you further it having your bones and muscles lined with nanothreads several times.



Shepeard does this time and again. So tell me. What could logically subdue Shepeard so that he/she is
forced to lay down his/her arms?



Then if such a trap should exist how could you realistically draw Shepeard into it?



All too often what ends up subduing a character is perhaps ten to twenty soldiers surrounding them even
though said character has slaughtered dozens at a time with far superior support. Thinking of Dragon Age origins and the tower. While you're fighting your way up the tower you kill wave after wave of dark spawn some of them in very good defensive position and in the end slaughter an ogre. Then you're suddenly subdued by a few rushing
hurlocks? Such happenings make no sense in light of what the character has already accomplished.

So unless a literal army consisting of hundreds if not thousands or a completed reaper manages to get the
drop on Shepeard I don't see how being captured could be logical. It's not even a case of, “Oh they had a superior defensive position and that's why you lost this one time.” After all most of the time when Shepeard is storming an enemy base they do have a superior defensive position.

Xeranx wrote...

Inprea
wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

In
games I hate pretty much all forced rescues. I don't mind a you
need a rescue because you suck and got shot in the face, but I
hate it when not matter how good you do cut scene X makes you
suck ass for a while so plot device or character X can rescue
you. It really removes incentives to excel when no matter how
good you do, you will fail in a cut scene.

It
depends on how it's done/approached. You're talking about
obvious failings on the part of your character despite all
preparations towards a successful outcome and I agree with that.
However, your character failing and needing to be rescued due to
a handicap that exists or develops is something I can get
behind.

The Virmire situation for example was greatly
downplayed for me when I experimented with saving Kaidan (I left
him with the bomb) leaving Ashley with the STG team and finding
the STG team in the cargo area afterwords. I was wondering, "so
why couldn't I save Ashley?"  That's not a situation I want
to revisit, but it happens again in
ME2 where a loyal squad mate
(after trekking through the tubes and surviving) dies because
the 1st team squad leader was normal or inadequate for the
position they were assigned to. It doesn't
make sense.

Doesn't this then depend on how well
prepared your character actually is? One example I can think of
is the vigil's keep in awakening. If you aren't willing to spend
the coin and find all the resources that are needed the vigil
falls and thus as a commander you've failed. On the other hand
if you spend the coin and get every upgrade possible the vigil
stands as you took the time and expended the resources needed to
prepare. I'm fine with failing so long as the failure is indeed mine
as a player but I'm not okay with it being forced upon me no matter
how well prepared I am.

As I said before, it can be
done right so that the event is completely logical.  Ultimately
it serves a factor of making the protagonist more human.  Why?
 Even the best laid plans can fail.  That's a truth that
can't ever be circumvented.

In another thread (or maybe this
one), I expressed my dislike of characters who always manage to come
out unscathed despite getting into the thick of things.  It's
like the writer can't bear to put their character(s) through the
ringer and have those people come out scarred.  This is
especially true of female characters.  

Frankly I can't
take a character seriously if they're always unaffected physically
and/or mentally by the things they go through.  This is why I
hated what they did in the Spider-man movies with making his webbing
organic when he was supposed to toil for the money he'd need to get
the supplies he'd use to make said webbing, all while attending
school and helping his aunt.  

A protagonist needs to
suffer in order for a person to try to get an idea of what the
protagonist is feeling.  That connection attempts to put you in
the character's headspace.  Without that there's no point in
trying to understand the character.  In the case of a game, that
translates to wanting everyone to succeed.  If I'm playing
another character trying to rescue the protagonist, I'm interested in
seeing that character or group of characters succeed in rescuing the
protagonist so that when I take control of said protagonist I'm much
more interested in doing what needs to be done to succeed.  

Once
again, I'm put into the protagonist's headspace though it's a bit
different.  The protagonist is now geared to tear through any
and all opposition because they were sidetracked from a goal they
were interested in meeting.  You as the player are geared to
tear through any and all opposition because your protagonist was
sidelined or sidetracked from making any influential marks in trying
to meet your goal.  As a result, every skirmish is feels (though
it actually is) that much more integral to your objective.  At
the same time, every newly overcome obstacle is another victory.  If
you've ever done something to see the rewards as you're working and
know that you want those rewards to keep coming because they make you
feel good - it's like a shot of adrenaline that keeps you coming back
for more.  Another kick in the pants as it were.

First about the being done right see my response to Garrison and explain how it could be done right taking
into consideration everything Shepeard has accomplished without suddenly dumbing the character down.

Being influenced mentally and coming out unscathed are not directly related to being rescued.

Actually doesn't your desire for the character to be rescued contradict your statement about coming out unscathed? The protagonist is in a dire situation unable to escape and entire helpless but oh look here comes their friends just in the nick of time to save them. How about those friends don't arrive in time or just in time? How about by the time they arrived Shepeard's right eye has been turn off, his/her legs sawed off oh and let's cut
out his/her tongue. That should give you the mental and physical anguish that you want to see.

When you say that you want the protagonist to be rescued you're not saying you want them to be
scathed or suffer. What you're saying is, “I want them to be saved from suffering by others.”

Modifié par Inprea, 26 octobre 2011 - 06:06 .

[Garrison2009]

Inprea wrote...

Garrison2009 wrote...

I
understand perfectly what you're saying Inprea about the whole
tactical retreat and all... And yes, it makes sense. Falling back
sometimes is necessary. My point is that sometimes, in war, even that
is not an option. You're whole problem seems to stem from the fact
that you do not wish to see your female Shepard portrayed once as
weak or unable to cope with a problem that arises. If this is what
you want in a protagonist than I suggest you look elsewhere in the
gaming world... Shepard, male or female, is a human being and thus
susceptible to making mistakes, getting him/herself into situations
where external help might be needed, etc. If the Reapers can never
even once gain an advantage over Shepard personally, not just on a
war/combat level where a tactical retreat would be possible, but
instead on a level that actually makes you fear for our hero's
safety... Then, once again, we might as well all go back and play
Mario for all the character he/she will have.

You may be content having a failure
forced upon your character but I am not. I don't consider such forced
defeats a humanizing event I consider them destruction of the
characters image. As far as games go I believe Bioware did it right
when saving Anora and another good example would be Suikoden 2 if you
ever played it. In Suikoden two they were several insanely difficult
fights that the player could still lose but the storyline continue
they could also be won though. In both games the defeat is up to the
player and how well they developed their character.




You say that Shepeard is a human being.
How human are you though after you've killed a Threshermaw on foot?
After you've stood up to a literal horde of trained soldiers rushing
you backed up by mechs? When you've stood facing a reaper while being
swarmed by hostile collectors even if that reaper isn't complete?
When you've walked into a major mercenary groups compound and
slaughtered everyone there? After you've been returned from the dead
with your body infused with who knows what artificial parts and then
you further it having your bones and muscles lined with nanothreads
several times.



Shepeard does this time and again. So
tell me. What could logically subdue Shepeard so that he/she is
forced to lay down his/her arms?



Then if such a trap should exist how
could you realistically draw Shepeard into it?



All too often what ends up subduing a
character is perhaps ten to twenty soldiers surrounding them even
though said character has slaughtered dozens at a time with far
superior support. Thinking of Dragon Age origins and the tower. While
you're fighting your way up the tower you kill wave after wave of
dark spawn some of them in very good defensive position and in the
end slaughter an ogre. Then you're suddenly subdued by a few rushing
hurlocks? Such happenings make no sense in light of what the
character has already accomplished.




So unless a literal army consisting of
hundreds if not thousands or a completed reaper manages to get the
drop on Shepeard I don't see how being captured could be logical.
It's not even a case of, “Oh they had a superior defensive position
and that's why you lost this one time.” After all most of the time
when Shepeard is storming an enemy base they do have a superior
defensive position.

Xeranx wrote...

Inprea
wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

In
games I hate pretty much all forced rescues. I don't mind a you
need a rescue because you suck and got shot in the face, but I
hate it when not matter how good you do cut scene X makes you
suck ass for a while so plot device or character X can rescue
you. It really removes incentives to excel when no matter how
good you do, you will fail in a cut scene.

It
depends on how it's done/approached. You're talking about
obvious failings on the part of your character despite all
preparations towards a successful outcome and I agree with that.
However, your character failing and needing to be rescued due to
a handicap that exists or develops is something I can get
behind.

The Virmire situation for example was greatly
downplayed for me when I experimented with saving Kaidan (I left
him with the bomb) leaving Ashley with the STG team and finding
the STG team in the cargo area afterwords. I was wondering, "so
why couldn't I save Ashley?"  That's not a situation I want
to revisit, but it happens again in
ME2 where a loyal squad mate
(after trekking through the tubes and surviving) dies because
the 1st team squad leader was normal or inadequate for the
position they were assigned to. It doesn't
make sense.

Doesn't this then depend on how well
prepared your character actually is? One example I can think of
is the vigil's keep in awakening. If you aren't willing to spend
the coin and find all the resources that are needed the vigil
falls and thus as a commander you've failed. On the other hand
if you spend the coin and get every upgrade possible the vigil
stands as you took the time and expended the resources needed to
prepare. I'm fine with failing so long as the failure is indeed mine
as a player but I'm not okay with it being forced upon me no matter
how well prepared I am.

As I said before, it can be
done right so that the event is completely logical.  Ultimately
it serves a factor of making the protagonist more human.  Why?
 Even the best laid plans can fail.  That's a truth that
can't ever be circumvented.

In another thread (or maybe this
one), I expressed my dislike of characters who always manage to come
out unscathed despite getting into the thick of things.  It's
like the writer can't bear to put their character(s) through the
ringer and have those people come out scarred.  This is
especially true of female characters.  

Frankly I can't
take a character seriously if they're always unaffected physically
and/or mentally by the things they go through.  This is why I
hated what they did in the Spider-man movies with making his webbing
organic when he was supposed to toil for the money he'd need to get
the supplies he'd use to make said webbing, all while attending
school and helping his aunt.  

A protagonist needs to
suffer in order for a person to try to get an idea of what the
protagonist is feeling.  That connection attempts to put you in
the character's headspace.  Without that there's no point in
trying to understand the character.  In the case of a game, that
translates to wanting everyone to succeed.  If I'm playing
another character trying to rescue the protagonist, I'm interested in
seeing that character or group of characters succeed in rescuing the
protagonist so that when I take control of said protagonist I'm much
more interested in doing what needs to be done to succeed.  

Once
again, I'm put into the protagonist's headspace though it's a bit
different.  The protagonist is now geared to tear through any
and all opposition because they were sidetracked from a goal they
were interested in meeting.  You as the player are geared to
tear through any and all opposition because your protagonist was
sidelined or sidetracked from making any influential marks in trying
to meet your goal.  As a result, every skirmish is feels (though
it actually is) that much more integral to your objective.  At
the same time, every newly overcome obstacle is another victory.  If
you've ever done something to see the rewards as you're working and
know that you want those rewards to keep coming because they make you
feel good - it's like a shot of adrenaline that keeps you coming back
for more.  Another kick in the pants as it were.

First about the being done right see my
response to Garrison and explain how it could be done right taking
into consideration everything Shepeard has accomplished without
suddenly dumbing the character down.




Being influenced mentally and coming
out unscathed are not directly related to being rescued.




Actually doesn't your desire for the
character to be rescued contradict your statement about coming out
unscathed? The protagonist is in a dire situation unable to escape
and entire helpless but oh look here comes their friends just in the
nick of time to save them. How about those friends don't arrive in
time or just in time? How about by the time they arrived Shepeard's
right eye has been turn off, his/her legs sawed off oh and let's cut
out his/her tongue. That should give you the mental and physical
anguish that you want to see.




When you say that you want the
protagonist to be rescued you're not saying you want them to be
scathed or suffer. What you're saying is, “I want them to be saved
from suffering by others.”

You're misrepresenting realism for sadism. Shepard has always been the savior, the protector, the one everyone can turn to in the last hour for hope. And yet all through his travels people have told him that he's crazy, that his notions about the Reapers are insane, and now he's being taken back to stand trial for saving the galaxy ONCE AGAIN... He's tired. Beaten. Worn out. Yes he's done all these incredible things and now his worst fear has come true. The Reapers have invaded, taken earth, and he's been forced to flee in an attempt to get all the other species to help against this threat that he's been warning them about all along. He may be a hero... But YES he is STILL human. And if he isnt practically on the verge of breaking after ALL of that... Then Bioware has dropped the ball in their writing department as they have no idea how human nature works, as also could be said of you.

As you can see, I'm not talking about being rescued purely in a combat scenario, as I've stated on an earlier post, but also on a personal level. THAT is where the true rescue will come from in my opinion.

[Vnnk]

Personally i enjoy the "save the main character" thing it gives you a chance to give your Shep more of a personality and deph depending on who saved him/her. As in if character A saved him he would be grate full. But if character B saved him/her he would fell offended. Or shep could just be ungrateful. You see were im going with this.

[Inprea]

Garrison2009 wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

How about letting people write their own story with Shep instead of shoe-horning a forced damsel-in-distress situation?

In an RPG that's all about writing your own story how about letting a capture scenario be optional or depend on Shep's choices?? Shep already surrenders for the trial so the option for this sort of things could be implemented elsewhere.

Perhaps in another hostage situation [like in LotSB] maybe we have an option to surrender and would need to be rescued. Maybe other options are to let the hostage die, try to snipe the hostage taker, get the hostage taker monologueing, etc. This way if you want to be rescued so you can empathize then good ... if you don't want to get slapped around more than you have already then also good. You can write your own story and go from there to get the experience you want.

But once again, this scenario (That you just laid out) while plausible and a good idea, makes things... less interesting. Nothing is spontaneous or takes you by surprise. You decide what happens and you expect the outcome of that decision as a result. There's no moment where your jaw drops open from something that just happened, once again making Shepard another Italian Plumber-like character, because he/she is never truly in danger and nothing unexpected ever happens to him/her. You see it all coming miles away... Which equals boring...

How is a forced dialogue event surprising? Especially when it's something along the lines of ten soldiers flooding the room and suddenly you're surrendering even though you've already ripped apart three times that number in an even more confined space.

That or perhaps a bomb going off and knocking you out even though it's been shown time and again that your shields are capable of standing up to a rocket blast.

If you want a surprise let's go to a classic game like resident evil. The classic scene of the zombie dog jumping through the window and now you're in a fight for your life. It doesn't have to be a dialogue event where you choose to surrender or try to fight. It could just as well be two altas mechs slamming through the roof and attacking you. If you manage to fight them off you progress and if they kick your tail you need rescueing.

For me an ambush by two or three powerful enemies is a heck of a lot more surprising then having control of the character taken from me only to have the character behave in a way that makes absolutely no sense based on their previous achievements.

[Inprea]

Garrison2009 wrote...


You're misrepresenting realism for sadism. Shepard has always been the savior, the protector, the one everyone can turn to in the last hour for hope. And yet all through his travels people have told him that he's crazy, that his notions about the Reapers are insane, and now he's being taken back to stand trial for saving the galaxy ONCE AGAIN... He's tired. Beaten. Worn out. Yes he's done all these incredible things and now his worst fear has come true. The Reapers have invaded, taken earth, and he's been forced to flee in an attempt to get all the other species to help against this threat that he's been warning them about all along. He may be a hero... But YES he is STILL human. And if he isnt practically on the verge of breaking after ALL of that... Then Bioware has dropped the ball in their writing department as they have no idea how human nature works, as also could be said of you.

As you can see, I'm not talking about being rescued purely in a combat scenario, as I've stated on an earlier post, but also on a personal level. THAT is where the true rescue will come from in my opinion.

If Shepeard was going to have a mental break down I believe that it should have happened long ago. Perhaps while looking upon the pile of corpses in the collector ship or shortly after having to leave Kaiden or Ashly to die. To me it's very much a situation of, "If you're not dead by now then you're not going to die."

That and I believe such mental break downs should be the decision of the player not forced upon them. If this was a true role playing game I would say roll mind + cool + any self descipline related talents to resist pschosis due to stress. Then assuming a failure we'd need to do another roll to see what physchosis we get.

However, as we don't have a stat system I'd say it's best left up to the player.

[Garrison2009]

Inprea wrote...

Garrison2009 wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

How about letting people write their own story with Shep instead of shoe-horning a forced damsel-in-distress situation?

In an RPG that's all about writing your own story how about letting a capture scenario be optional or depend on Shep's choices?? Shep already surrenders for the trial so the option for this sort of things could be implemented elsewhere.

Perhaps in another hostage situation [like in LotSB] maybe we have an option to surrender and would need to be rescued. Maybe other options are to let the hostage die, try to snipe the hostage taker, get the hostage taker monologueing, etc. This way if you want to be rescued so you can empathize then good ... if you don't want to get slapped around more than you have already then also good. You can write your own story and go from there to get the experience you want.

But once again, this scenario (That you just laid out) while plausible and a good idea, makes things... less interesting. Nothing is spontaneous or takes you by surprise. You decide what happens and you expect the outcome of that decision as a result. There's no moment where your jaw drops open from something that just happened, once again making Shepard another Italian Plumber-like character, because he/she is never truly in danger and nothing unexpected ever happens to him/her. You see it all coming miles away... Which equals boring...

How is a forced dialogue event surprising? Especially when it's something along the lines of ten soldiers flooding the room and suddenly you're surrendering even though you've already ripped apart three times that number in an even more confined space.

That or perhaps a bomb going off and knocking you out even though it's been shown time and again that your shields are capable of standing up to a rocket blast.

If you want a surprise let's go to a classic game like resident evil. The classic scene of the zombie dog jumping through the window and now you're in a fight for your life. It doesn't have to be a dialogue event where you choose to surrender or try to fight. It could just as well be two altas mechs slamming through the roof and attacking you. If you manage to fight them off you progress and if they kick your tail you need rescueing.

For me an ambush by two or three powerful enemies is a heck of a lot more surprising then having control of the character taken from me only to have the character behave in a way that makes absolutely no sense based on their previous achievements.

Here however, you're starting a whole other argument about the writing... One which I will not participate in. You obviously simply wish your Shepard to be in control of everything all the time, which is totally unrealistic, and be totally invincible, which, from an RPGamers perspective might be desirable, but, from a story-telling perspective, is just... cheap... and idiotic to be perfectly honest. It doesnt cheapen the character to make him/her vulnerable. It actually deepens them, as hard as that may be for you to see.

Let's take Superman as an example. When he first started out, yes he was strong, ad yes he was fast... But he couldnt fly and he wasnt totally invulnerable. Over the years however, the writers changed him, making him almost god-like in his sheer power. He's impossible to take down without Kryptonite practically, REALLY fast, and EXTREMELY strong to a titan sort of level. In short.. he got boring... There was no personal danger to him going out and fighting crime. He went out, beat up bad guys, got kittens out of trees, etc... And nothing could touch him except for Kryptonite. Once again... boring...

[Garrison2009]

Inprea wrote...

Garrison2009 wrote...


You're misrepresenting realism for sadism. Shepard has always been the savior, the protector, the one everyone can turn to in the last hour for hope. And yet all through his travels people have told him that he's crazy, that his notions about the Reapers are insane, and now he's being taken back to stand trial for saving the galaxy ONCE AGAIN... He's tired. Beaten. Worn out. Yes he's done all these incredible things and now his worst fear has come true. The Reapers have invaded, taken earth, and he's been forced to flee in an attempt to get all the other species to help against this threat that he's been warning them about all along. He may be a hero... But YES he is STILL human. And if he isnt practically on the verge of breaking after ALL of that... Then Bioware has dropped the ball in their writing department as they have no idea how human nature works, as also could be said of you.

As you can see, I'm not talking about being rescued purely in a combat scenario, as I've stated on an earlier post, but also on a personal level. THAT is where the true rescue will come from in my opinion.

If Shepeard was going to have a mental break down I believe that it should have happened long ago. Perhaps while looking upon the pile of corpses in the collector ship or shortly after having to leave Kaiden or Ashly to die. To me it's very much a situation of, "If you're not dead by now then you're not going to die."

That and I believe such mental break downs should be the decision of the player not forced upon them. If this was a true role playing game I would say roll mind + cool + any self descipline related talents to resist pschosis due to stress. Then assuming a failure we'd need to do another roll to see what physchosis we get.

However, as we don't have a stat system I'd say it's best left up to the player.

You play a Renegade Shepard dont you?