436 réponses à ce sujet

[Dubya75]

Very interesting to see the poll is now 47% in favour of Silent and 53% Voiced.
The fact of the matter is however (unless they can be persuaded otherwise) that Bioware is not going back to a silent protagonist. 

Modifié par Dubya75, 07 novembre 2011 - 10:24 .

[MerinTB]

Sareth Cousland wrote...
but to identify with your character, the voice is important.

No.

No, it's not.

The voice makes the character LESS mine and I identify with him LESS.

Or I guess identify is a bad word.  "Feel like he or she is my character" is what I'm focused on.

Identify with... what, you think ONE voice actor will be something most, let alone all, gamers will CONNECT with?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sareth Cousland wrote...

but to identify with your character, the voice is important.

I insist that the opposite is true.

A toggle to switch it off is probably not possible, because of the cinematic approach to presenting dialogue. That's the path that Bioware has chosen for DA, and I think it makes no sense to turn off the voice and watch your character move his/her lips in silence.

I think that would be vastly better than what we have now.

[Urazz]

MerinTB wrote...

Sareth Cousland wrote...
but to identify with your character, the voice is important.

No.

No, it's not.

The voice makes the character LESS mine and I identify with him LESS.

Or I guess identify is a bad word.  "Feel like he or she is my character" is what I'm focused on.

Identify with... what, you think ONE voice actor will be something most, let alone all, gamers will CONNECT with?

The problem is that it's not your character.  Bioware just gives you a few choices in what you can do but it's nothing you come up with.  The only part of the character that you could even say is yours is the facial customization you did with that character.  When you actually come up with the lines and choices is when you can clame the character is more yours.

If you truly want your character to be yours then you are better off playing a D&D type game with your friends.

Bioware is going with a voiced PC because they feel it makes for better storytelling especially when you have everyone else talk as well.

Modifié par Urazz, 08 novembre 2011 - 12:40 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Urazz wrote...

The problem is that it's not your character. 

If it's not my character, then I don't want to play the game.

[Vegos]

Now why would I even have to choose between the two? Either has their pros and cons. A silent protagonist can simply look silly (sometimes I expected my Warden to start using the sign language, in fact, no kidding), and paraphrases can be abysmal if the voice acting isn't up to notch.

As long as they're executed as well as they can be executed, either one works for me.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Sareth Cousland wrote...

... but to identify with your character, the voice is important.

It is?  Huh, I did not know that.  

[Killjoy Cutter]

Urazz wrote...

The problem is that it's not your character. 

It's supposed to be, as much as possible. 

[MerinTB]

Urazz wrote...
The problem is that it's not your character.  Bioware just gives you a few choices in what you can do but it's nothing you come up with.  The only part of the character that you could even say is yours is the facial customization you did with that character.

I am painfully aware of this with recent BioWare games.  Painfully.

Urazz wrote...
If you truly want your character to be yours then you are better off playing a D&D type game with your friends.

Except that we're not talking about table top gaming.  We are talking about video games.  And I have a shelf FULL of games that let me create my own character.

Honestly this - "go play D&D with friends" line needs to be tossed in the same waste bin as "stop wasting time with games and do something constructive with your time" and "get out of your mom's basement, you geek loser."

I'm not a teen-ager.  I'm not a college-aged young adult.  I've been playing table top D&D for close to thirty years now.  Trust me, I KNOW what that is like.

I've also been playing cRPG's for nearly the same amount of time - and I KNOW that they can let me make my own character.  They've done it for decades.

This isn't a one or the other thing.  You CAN play poker at a poker table with friends, or play a computer poker game with virtual opponents.  You really can do both without the latter needing to alter the rules or experience short of not having to arrange a time with a bunch of other people who want to play to meet and play the game.

What the cRPG gives is no need for a DM, no need for scheduling around children, jobs, spouse's committments, other family related situations for a group of players.... it lets you play, by yourself, when you have free time.  It also condenses the gameplay so that more happens in less time, and you can be the star (or you whole party you control can be the star but you are still the only player being paid any attention) so you don't have to share the lime light or worry about the stage being hogged by others.

....

I need some new kind of quipy response to "you should play D&D with friends" crap that is similar to Merin's Law.

[Vegos]

MerinTB wrote...

I need some new kind of quipy response to "you should play D&D with friends" crap that is similar to Merin's Law.

"I do that when I'm not busy being awesome"

?

[GodWood]

Sareth Cousland wrote...
People, stop misreading me. You know as well as I that there won't be a return to the silent protagonist. Hence, the voice is important to identify with the character - clear now?

Umm, no.

[nightscrawl]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I do believe NWN made heavy use of radial menus, as well, despite being PC only.  Though they were quite complicated, with multiple expanding layers per menu.

It did, and I despised it. However, I don't mind the radial menu for the dialogue in DA2 because that is all it was used for. NWN had you using it for crafting, emotes, and all sorts of things that I can't recall at the moment.

I'll add that I too would have liked to have numbered choices, as in DAO.

MerinTB wrote...

Sareth Cousland wrote...
but to identify with your character, the voice is important.

No.

No, it's not.

The voice makes the character LESS mine and I identify with him LESS.

Or I guess identify is a bad word.  "Feel like he or she is my character" is what I'm focused on.

Identify with... what, you think ONE voice actor will be something most, let alone all, gamers will CONNECT with?

The paraphrasing and wheel aside, I think this is the worst consequence of the voiced PC. I mainly play a femHawke and I like her voice, as I think it fits my character. However, I've read many people who do not like either of the Hawke actors, and having to hear those voices greatly reduces their enjoyment in the game. A voice that one person likes, some other person will not, and with an RPG it makes a big difference.

The point this had the largest impact on me was when I made my first maleHawke after having played female several times. It was so WEIRD hearing most of the same lines said by the different voice. It took half of the game to get used to it o_O. I also never really felt that the voice went with the appearance of my character, he sounded much older.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 08 novembre 2011 - 12:46 .

[MerinTB]

Sareth Cousland wrote...
People, stop misreading me. You know as well as I that there won't be a return to the silent protagonist.

Maybe not with BioWare.  And that just puts another checkmark in my growing list of "I'm not a fan of BioWare anymore" reasons.

Skyrim has silent protagonist.

Not only does KoA:R have a silent protagonist, the devs have made a pretty impassioned defense of why they chose such.

BioWare voicing the MC makes it harder for me to consider their games RPGs.  It doesn't make it impossible, just harder.

I think Alpha Protocol was a fine RPG, and I was given a preset character (in some ways more than even ME) with voice and a dialog wheel.  That game did other things that made up for the above.

So BioWare could do some great games with voiced protagonists where I can ignore the voice because the rest is really good.

DA2 and ME3 are not giving me reason to hope, though.

[Sylvius the Mad]

MerinTB wrote...

DA2 and ME3 are not giving me reason to hope, though.

I was brielfly hopeful when I heard that ME3 had an RPG Mode, but then I learned that RPG mode is apparently the mode ME2 was in, which seems crazy to me.

RPG mode should, at the very least, show us full dialogue options.

[MerinTB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

DA2 and ME3 are not giving me reason to hope, though.

I was brielfly hopeful when I heard that ME3 had an RPG Mode, but then I learned that RPG mode is apparently the mode ME2 was in, which seems crazy to me.

RPG mode should, at the very least, show us full dialogue options.

Heh, I made the off-hand comment to someone earlier today (without knowing hardly ANYTHING about the modes for co-op as I've not been following stories or threads or anything) that I would guess BioWare would mean the following: Story Mode = Like ME1; RPG Mode = Like ME2; Action Mode = Like ME3.

[Morroian]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

DA2 and ME3 are not giving me reason to hope, though.

I was brielfly hopeful when I heard that ME3 had an RPG Mode, but then I learned that RPG mode is apparently the mode ME2 was in, which seems crazy to me.

So rpg mode is modelled on a game where the rpg elements are so minor as to be almost non existant 

[Xewaka]

MerinTB wrote...
I think Alpha Protocol was a fine RPG, and I was given a preset character (in some ways more than even ME) with voice and a dialog wheel.  That game did other things that made up for the above.

Honestly, the voice doesn't bother me so much in cases like Alpha Protocol or Deus Ex Human Revolution. After all, you're given a preset character to play with, and the voice is part of said preset character. It's when they attempt to give the illusion of making your own character just to jank the chain and force you their character once the game has begun that gets me.
Either allow me to build the character completely from scratch or have the parameters for playing the character explicit from the beginning. Don't half ass it giving the worst of both worlds.

Modifié par Xewaka, 08 novembre 2011 - 08:40 .

[Wozearly]

Dubya75 wrote...

Very interesting to see the poll is now 47% in favour of Silent and 53% Voiced.
The fact of the matter is however (unless they can be persuaded otherwise) that Bioware is not going back to a silent protagonist. 

True, but its essentially a design / strategy decision. Teminology might get disputed, but I'd loosely categorise it as pursuit of cinematic qualities.

Its not just the voice, either. Having the character move and act, or show reactions on their face, in ways that are not determined by the player is all a part of this.

I'm not surprised that this divides opinion, because its not inherantly a good or bad thing in a game. The listed options above mean that you have the potential to make a character act more naturally in cut-scenes and conversations, talking over people, finishing their sentences, taking actions, reacting to things in a certain way, etc. without forcing the game to pause to require player input and putting in multiple options.

Of course, it comes with a string of downsides for a cRPG audience because a number of people have strong views about their character acting, erm, out of character with how the player sees them. And you're far more likely to do this the more the game dictates how the player says something, or does something. Your only alternative is to create a more defined and rigid character, such as Shepard or Hawke...and hope the character has widespread appeal.

The downsides of a voiced PC are much less of an issue with more action driven games like the GTA series, Call of Duty, etc. I personally see voiced PCs as being a bit like 3D films - a current fashion that works better in some genres than others and may or may not stand the test of time depending on how it performs.

[MerinTB]

Xewaka wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
I think Alpha Protocol was a fine RPG, and I was given a preset character (in some ways more than even ME) with voice and a dialog wheel.  That game did other things that made up for the above.

Honestly, the voice doesn't bother me so much in cases like Alpha Protocol or Deus Ex Human Revolution. After all, you're given a preset character to play with, and the voice is part of said preset character. It's when they attempt to give the illusion of making your own character just to jank the chain and force you their character once the game has begun that gets me.
Either allow me to build the character completely from scratch or have the parameters for playing the character explicit from the beginning. Don't half ass it giving the worst of both worlds.

I should probably clarfiy - I have said this elsewhere, but I'll restate it:

I want as much control of my character as possible in a cRPG.  Appearance is actually pretty far down that list, but I'd like that too if possible.
That said, if you are going to make some stuff "set in stone" for the main character, the one I'm controlling, then go all out.  Don't pretend it's my character... let me know I'm playing a "pre-rolled" character and that I get to "help" choose that character's path and advancement.  I can live with it.

Given my choice, I want to make my own character.
But I can enjoy a game where I'm given a character, even a cRPG.  It's not my preference, but I don't hate it.

The "muddy middle" is what I dislike immensely.

[Gunderic]

MerinTB wrote...

Urazz wrote...
The problem is that it's not your character.  Bioware just gives you a few choices in what you can do but it's nothing you come up with.  The only part of the character that you could even say is yours is the facial customization you did with that character.

I am painfully aware of this with recent BioWare games.  Painfully.

Urazz wrote...
If you truly want your character to be yours then you are better off playing a D&D type game with your friends.

I need some new kind of quipy response to "you should play D&D with friends" crap that is similar to Merin's Law.

love hearing that one. 

[Merci357]

Xewaka wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
I think Alpha Protocol was a fine RPG, and I was given a preset character (in some ways more than even ME) with voice and a dialog wheel.  That game did other things that made up for the above.

Honestly, the voice doesn't bother me so much in cases like Alpha Protocol or Deus Ex Human Revolution. After all, you're given a preset character to play with, and the voice is part of said preset character. It's when they attempt to give the illusion of making your own character just to jank the chain and force you their character once the game has begun that gets me.
Either allow me to build the character completely from scratch or have the parameters for playing the character explicit from the beginning. Don't half ass it giving the worst of both worlds.

Not that I disagee, but if you watch this panel Armando Troisi held 2010 at the Game Design Expo, it's quite obvious that BioWare thinks Shepard is a predefined character. It's a panel about ME2 interactive narrative design. It explains their view about paraphrasing, about the dialogue wheel, and about voiced vs. silent PC quite well - and least in context of the ME series. Most of it should apply to DA2 as well, it's worth a view to better understand their point of view.

[Dubya75]

Never mind

Modifié par Dubya75, 08 novembre 2011 - 09:16 .