436 réponses à ce sujet

[Zjarcal]

bleetman wrote...

See, I found everyone's seeming adoration for someone whose only avenue of expression involves shooting at things to be entirely hilarious. Especially when Alyx starts clumsily flirting with him. Maybe it's the glasses?

I still wouldn't really consider him an example of how silent protagonists can somehow make for better characters than voiced ones. He barely even qualified as a character to me, being little more than a suit with a beard. The examples you're giving are all based on how other characters react, with anything he does in response (nothing, in this case) not really coming into it. I mean, if Freeman spoke, and everyone reacted in exactly the same way they do now, would everything you describe become untrue?

The fascination with Gordon Freeman has always perplexed me. I mean, I love Half Life and all the characters in it, but Freeman isn't a character, he's just a vehicle for me to enjoy the game. While he makes it possible for me to enjoy the game, it's certainly not him that I love.

The idea that he expresses feelings or emotions is... yeah, just... yeah.

(Talking about Half Life in the DA2 forums... yeah, very off topic. )

Modifié par Zjarcal, 08 décembre 2011 - 03:40 .

[addiction21]

bleetman wrote...

He barely even qualified as a character to me, being little more than a suit with a beard.

And the crowbar



Gordon is great but not much more of a vehicle for me to ride thru the story and game in. I think The Warden from DAO, Reven in KoToR, the Fallout games and TES games have better examples of a silent protag.

I am not married to either one really. For me those games I just listed the silent character works far better but for The Witcher and more recent BioWare games I prefer the voiced character.

[Mark of the Dragon]

I have yet to understand why we need a diffrent voice actor for each race. I mean yea the races look different but close your eyes and they sound mostly the same. The biggest argument I have heard is that the dalish sound different. Well the easy solution is just dont let people play as a dalish elf that shouldnt mean we cant play as a city elf who sounds exactly like a human. I mean yea there will be a bit more dialogue for each character like certain lines to make a dwarf sound more..dwarfish XD. However I dont see it being that hard of a challenge to implement both voice actors and race selection.
If I had to choose however it would be race selection everytime. I can live with a silent PC as long as it is MY silent pc.

Modifié par Mark of the Dragon, 08 décembre 2011 - 07:01 .

[vania z]

I am replaying da:o now, and, well, I found out that I like silent protagonist the best. Icons to describe intentions would be nice, though. Sometimes I thought that I said joke, when I was seriously saying something stupid O_o And, no no dialogue wheel. With it I had to stick to one of 3 personalities, in DA:O I can play my character much better.

Also, if I romanced Morrigan with my character voiced, I would have been jealous of the voice actor:D Or, well, I would not care that much from the beginning. 

Modifié par vania z, 08 décembre 2011 - 05:16 .

[vania z]

Mark of the Dragon wrote...

I have yet to understand why we need a diffrent voice actor for each race. I mean yea the races look different but close your eyes and they sound mostly the same.

Tbh, they are the same:D Many npcs are voiced by the same actor

[tmp7704]

jlb524 wrote...

To me, having 'cinematic presentation' with a mute lifeless protagonist is something akin to the "uncanny valley" affect.

It's a good thing then DA has the protagonist who is neither mute nor lifeless, no? At least on my screen he/she routinely moves around and gestures, and no one has problems holding regular conversations with them.

Granted, most of the time you won't actually see their expression with the camera focusing on the other person, but if that makes a character lifeless then i guess there's probably no single game character that qualitifes as 'alive' -- see the "if i have to watch an ass for X hours..." arguments.

(this may come as overly sarcastic, but what i really mean is, personally i absolutely don't get that "mute lifeless protagonist" feeling you speak of, when i play the game. He/she is to me just like all the others, merely with less of the spotlight time. It's especially weird when people complain about "mute protagonist" referring to a character who at the same time manages to drive them bonkers with her voice, offering them free ladders)

A game like DA:O got even closer to having this 'like watching a movie' quality but there was just one thing that was completely off that reminded me that I wasn't quite watching a movie...and it was the accursed "blank stare" silent protagonist.

It always puzzles me when people talk about the "blank stare" as something that selectively affects the protagonist, while they somehow manage to ignore far more frequent situations with every other character in the game doing exactly the same thing the PC occasionally does -- watching you in silence for long seconds while they wait for you to pick your dialogue responses. Not in the least because the PC is the one character for whom you can be fairly sure exactly what they are thinking during these situations, because you're supposedly supplying that mental process and emotions yourself.

[DarthCaine]

Ideally it would be Voiced PC with full dialogue.

Normally I prefer a Voiced Protagonist (Shepard, Geralt), but I felt much more connected with The Warden than Hawke

Modifié par DarthCaine, 08 décembre 2011 - 12:02 .

[Hoogies123]

Mark of the Dragon wrote...

I have yet to understand why we need a diffrent voice actor for each race. I mean yea the races look different but close your eyes and they sound mostly the same. The biggest argument I have heard is that the dalish sound different. Well the easy solution is just dont let people play as a dalish elf that shouldnt mean we cant play as a city elf who sounds exactly like a human. I mean yea there will be a bit more dialogue for each character like certain lines to make a dwarf sound more..dwarfish XD. However I dont see it being that hard of a challenge to implement both voice actors and race selection.
If I had to choose however it would be race selection everytime. I can live with a silent PC as long as it is MY silent pc.

But there in lies your problems, if you have just one voice actor for 3 or 4 different species then you have to make some kind of perfectly neutral voice that could be used for all 3 or 4, but even then I find it hard to believe you could pass off the same voice for a dwarf, elf, human and say an orc or something. It doesn't make any sense. This also doesnt work well with perfect character customization, for example in The Old Republic I have a very massive black character playing as a soldier, if anyone knows the preset for the soldiers voice you know that it doesnt fit together on any level. The way my character speaks and just looking at his appearance makes me laugh a lot, but it also makes me sad since if I made that character in the full game I would be stuck with that ridiculously off-pitch tone for my dude. I appreaciate all the ooooooo's and aaaahhhh's of voice acting and I like it in some respects like Mass Effect, but you dont have to use it like its going out of style. Remember the great gaming legends who were silent protagonists, sometimes it just works.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I voted voiced. Still pretty close to 50/50.

SWTOR has the voiced and paraphrasing. Its brilliant there becase even in the same dialog different classes will say things a different way, and NPCs will respond differently.

My charcter responded jedi-like and the NPC said "Why is the Jedi on my bridge spouting his nonsense?". It was hilarious

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

tmp7704 wrote...
It always puzzles me when people talk about the "blank stare" as something that selectively affects the protagonist, while they somehow manage to ignore far more frequent situations with every other character in the game doing exactly the same thing the PC occasionally does -- watching you in silence for long seconds while they wait for you to pick your dialogue responses. Not in the least because the PC is the one character for whom you can be fairly sure exactly what they are thinking during these situations, because you're supposedly supplying that mental process and emotions yourself.

I write that off to game mechanics. Totlly different than when the PC does it, imo

[Zubie]

Shinian2 wrote...

I voted voiced. Still pretty close to 50/50.

SWTOR has the voiced and paraphrasing. Its brilliant there becase even in the same dialog different classes will say things a different way, and NPCs will respond differently.

My charcter responded jedi-like and the NPC said "Why is the Jedi on my bridge spouting his nonsense?". It was hilarious

No, the paraphrasing is as bad as ever in SWTOR. You still have no way of knowing what your character is going to say when selecting a line. I played a jedi consular in the beta and in the starting area alone there were many occasions where the spoken line wasn't even remotely close to the paraphrased line. To make matters worse, you can't exactly reload and select a different option this time.

Still a great game though.

[ScotGaymer]

I like having a voice protagonist.

However I do not like the paraphrasing system at all. It results in the PC saying things you didn't intend for them to say, or to say things in a way that isnt apparent at first look. The icons when some way to address this but not far enough.

It takes a good part of the "role playing" out of a supposed Role Playing Game.

Not fun.

I would like to see a sort of hybrid where the protag is voiced, the wheel has icons, has the paraphrasing, and also when you mouse over/sit on the option for a time the full text of what the protag is going to say will then appear over it in a semi transparent box or something.

A bit like how Human Revolution does it.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 08 décembre 2011 - 08:38 .

[Hambacon]

I like the voice acting, but the Warden's choices for reply where more awesome and on target for me (Warden: Griffons? Wynne: yes, yes, griffons. Goodness, it's like talking to a child) .
I'm trying to imagine what my Warden talking to his companions and i think it would have been a tad less immersive, more third-persony. The Warden wouldn't have the inflection or gestures I imagine. I like having my imagination fill in once in awhile.

--It's like this: Reading a  book vs listening to the audio-cassette/CD version. It's the same book, but listening to it being read messes it up sometimes if the reader's interpretation of the character's reactions or emphasis is different than your own. It's still good material in the end.

Modifié par Hambacon, 09 décembre 2011 - 05:33 .

[Hambacon]

Also, I'm guessing voice = more expensive, more time consuming work.
Time and money that can go to other things.

[Sylvius the Mad]

easygame88 wrote...

No, the paraphrasing is as bad as ever in SWTOR.

I'll admit I have limited experience in SWTOR, but I'm inclined to agree with this.  I have played three SWTOR characters, and for two of them the paraphrasing and even the voice-acting worked pretty well, but for the third the system failed horribly.  A voice+paraphrase system will necessarily eliminate some character designs without the player knowing about it in advance, and then surprise him with character-breaking failure.

[HiroVoid]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

easygame88 wrote...

No, the paraphrasing is as bad as ever in SWTOR.

I'll admit I have limited experience in SWTOR, but I'm inclined to agree with this.  I have played three SWTOR characters, and for two of them the paraphrasing and even the voice-acting worked pretty well, but for the third the system failed horribly.  A voice+paraphrase system will necessarily eliminate some character designs without the player knowing about it in advance, and then surprise him with character-breaking failure.

So would you say its better or worse than the systems used in Mass Effect and Dragon Age 2?

[contextual_entity]

Copy pasta from my responce to a very similar thread 4 months ago:

Amitar wrote...

I'm of the opinion that "Voiced protagonist and no race choice (like in DA2)" and "Silent protagonist and race choice (like in DAO)" are equally outmoded. People want to play different races and yet having a silent protagonist feels like a step backwards (though I'm sure some of the oldschool purists would love it).

That leaves "Voiced protagonist and race choice but with the same voice for every race" as the only sensible option for balancing the games budget and player choice.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Probably voiced. Still by far an inferior method, however. Paraphrasing is dirty, it should be cleansed by the option for full dialogue.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 10 décembre 2011 - 03:41 .

[brightblueink]

Honestly there were times that the NPCs in DA:O reacted as if the line I chose had a different tone than I'd meant about as often as Hawke said something in a way I didn't attend in DA2, so on that side of the debate I don't much care one way or the other. What I really liked about DA2, though, is how I really felt a sense of connection between Hawke and her companions, more than I got in DA:O, and I think a large part of that was Hawke being voiced and much more animated. When I play DA2, I feel like I'm watching a conversation between two friends (or fierce rivals) play out in front of me, and when I'm playing DA:O I feel a little more like I'm playing a choose-your-own-adventure game and the characters are responding to me (as a player) accordingly. I know some people probably find that more immersive, but for me it makes me more aware that I'm playing a game, and the characters are programmed to respond in a certain way to my canned lines. The interactions in DA2 felt more like impulsive reactions based on emotion, so it gave me a sense that everything was more "real". Particularly when combined with the friendship/rivalry system and the personality system (rather than a black-and-white "good/evil" or "hero/anti-hero" system).

I'd love a paraphrase + full text on hover system, though, particularly if the full text always matched the changes made due to the personality that's dominate for the PC (if they used the personality system again). My one worry would be that it wouldn't--I've noticed that the subtitles for Hawke usually don't match up in the item fetch quests when they return an item (IE, the subtitles say "I think this is yours" or something, but the voiced clip says "I found this. Try to keep better track of your things"). I'm guessing that's a glitch, but hopefully that isn't a sign that the personality system would screw up a "full text on hover" system, too.

[vania z]

Can we have a toggle in settings to enable/disable voiced protagonist? It is not difficult to make. and since they are probably going to show full answers as well, playing without voice will be ok.

[brightblueink]

vania z wrote...

Can we have a toggle in settings to enable/disable voiced protagonist? It is not difficult to make. and since they are probably going to show full answers as well, playing without voice will be ok.

Wouldn't an unvoiced protagonist still be moving their lips and gesturing, though? Unless the toggle made them stand straight ahead without an expression, which might be harder to do (and awkward if the conversations are going to play out like they did in 2 with the more dynamic camera and such).

[vania z]

brightblueink wrote...


Wouldn't an unvoiced protagonist still be moving their lips and gesturing, though? Unless the toggle made them stand straight ahead without an expression, which might be harder to do (and awkward if the conversations are going to play out like they did in 2 with the more dynamic camera and such).

Good point. In DAO they don't show protagonist's part of speech. They can just skeep in da3 it too - 'esp' button does just that. That does not include scenes where protagonist is doing something, though. Like showing some magic, kissing his LI and so on. 

[AngryFrozenWater]

The poll is now approaching 50/50.

To me a voiced or silent PC preference has to do with the view too.

In third person view I look at my PC and it obviously is not able to look like me. So that gives me the feeling that I control a character other than me. The same goes for the voice. The game is not able to sound like me. And because of that I don't mind a voiced PC in third person view. I wouldn't mind a silent PC eiher, because that allows me to imagine how the lines are delivered and thus it gives me greater control.

In first person view it is like I am looking through the eyes of the PC. That gives me the illusion that I can be that PC. The look of that PC is less important, because I don't see it anyway. A voice that is clearly not me, does distract from the illusion. So in this case I rather go for a silent PC.

Games like Skyrim are interesting, because it allows me to switch between first and third person view. I am glad that in that game the PC is silent, because that offers me to switch to one of the two views whenever I want without distraction.

So far I see more advantages for a silent PC then a voiced PC. Especially when it comes to RPGs, because the core idea is that you role play and control a character as you see fit. The closer it can be to a character I have created, the better.

Voice acting can be great, though. Some games like Mass Effect have great PC voice actors and the voice acts like part of the cinematic performance. For me Shepard is female and Jeniffer Hale's performance is outstanding. In DA2 I couldn't care less about the voice acting. I don't like it all. In this case I would prefer the game to use a silent PC. Do it well or don't do it all.

Having a toggle between the two would be great and is technically not impossible, but I assume that for BW (who wants to add facial expressions as well) this would mean also changing the camera angle in such a toggle to hide the face of the voiceless character. That's doable, but given BW's trend to follow the most cost effective approach and their creative approach (which favors a voiced PC) that toggle will most likely not be implemented.

I rather wish they give up on it, though. I doubt that the fans of a voiced PC will walk away from a title because it has no voiced character. Although switching between the two between a sequel using an existing PC doesn't make sense. However, if Hawke is not coming back for DA3 then I prefer they would not have a voice acted PC at all.

Skyrim with a silent PC sold 7 million copies in no time. That's a lot more than DA2 with a voiced character. Even DA:O performed well with a silent PC. So, having a silent PC still can still lead to blockbuster sales. Think about how much money you'll save with a silent PC, BW.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 12 décembre 2011 - 10:31 .

[Loc'n'lol]

Do it like Deux Ex HR, voiced with full dialog. If you care. For those who just want to push buttons and get to the shooting already, there's always the very concise paraphrasing.

[Zanallen]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The poll is now approaching 50/50.

Why is this so exciting for you people? Of course it is going to hit 50/50. We already had pretty much this same exact poll a few months ago. It had well over a thousand votes. And was pretty much 50/50 the entire time.