436 réponses à ce sujet

[mesmerizedish]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The full text gives you more information. It always will. The paraphrase is demonstrably the lesser option.

The argument I've read is that people don't like the repetition between the written line and the spoken line.

Considering I've made that exact same argument when discussing TW1, it's not bull****.

If you subvocalize when you read, and then hear the VA speak the line, you can easily argue that you would rather not "hear" the line twice.

I have such a great analogy for this, you don't even know. But you will, because I am about to lay it out for you.

Skyrim lets me examine items in 3D in the inventory before using them. I can rotate them, zoom in, zoom out, view it however I'd like. I gain full knowledge of its appearance prior to equipping it. Complaining about "hearing the line twice" is tantamount to complaining about having to look at the item twice.

The original analogy was more abstract and involved red shirts. But I'm just so excited for Skyrim.

I subvocalize when I read. I subvocalize when I type. I subvocalize when I think (or maybe I just talk to myself). It's not really like hearing the line twice, because my subvocalization has little in common with the spoken line except the words being spoken.

Keep in mind that I'm not telling you that you do not feel the way you feel. I'm just saying that it makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Fox In The Box wrote...

Would it be possible to create a toggle between paraphrasing and full text, like the hiding helmet one? So that players could choose which they wanted.

This has been one of the suggested compromises.

I like the idea of being able to highlight a paraphrase option and then, after a certain amount of time, the full line appears.

That way you can wait for the full line, or you don't have to.

I'm not thrilled with that solution because it would dramatically slow down conversations.

I routinely skip the voiced dialogue, and I read through the options at a glance.  Having to wait for each of them to be revealed would turn a hub event that normally takes under a second into a several second ordeal.

Learn to deal I like that "It would take longer" is your only complaint, though. It seems really nitpicky and more than a little petty. But I expect that you raise the issue simply because if there is an issue, you will raise it, and not because it would prevent you from playing the game.

For what it's worth, I would hope that enter or escape would pull up the full-text immediately just as it pulls up the hub immediately.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 02 novembre 2011 - 09:24 .

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I'm not thrilled with that solution because it would dramatically slow down conversations.

I routinely skip the voiced dialogue, and I read through the options at a glance.  Having to wait for each of them to be revealed would turn a hub event that normally takes under a second into a several second ordeal.

Well, lets assume for the moment that the solution is already being implemented so it's not really a toggle.

Now imagine that there's an option in the menu to set how many seconds you have to wait before the full line appears.

0 seconds = No paraphrase appears at all, or, the full line is displayed the instant the option is highlighted

[Zjarcal]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The full text gives you more information. It always will. The paraphrase is demonstrably the lesser option.

The argument I've read is that people don't like the repetition between the written line and the spoken line.

Considering I've made that exact same argument when discussing TW1, it's not bull****.

If you subvocalize when you read, and then hear the VA speak the line, you can easily argue that you would rather not "hear" the line twice.

TW1 was beyond painful in that regard, talk about redundancy. I absolutely hate the idea of having VO with the full text showing.

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Complaining about "hearing the line twice" is tantamount to complaining about having to look at the item twice.

That's a ridiculous analogy.

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The full text gives you more information. It always will. The paraphrase is demonstrably the lesser option.

The argument I've read is that people don't like the repetition between the written line and the spoken line.

Obviously, this is complete horseradish (it's like BS but smells worse). But, I've long since given up on trying to understand people's strange behavior and learned to accept that they're crazy and stupid. People will feel how they feel, and that's BioWare's audience. A company makes money by giving people what they want, not by being right.

Ah, it's a shame I hadn't read this post before. Yes, those of us who like something different than you are "crazy and stupid". Thanks for enlightening me.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 02 novembre 2011 - 09:51 .

[Ryzaki]

Silent with full dialogue. Voices for the most part don't do anything for me.

"Oh yay I can hear what my PC is saying at the cost of more options." With a nice side order of making me feel distant because the voice isn't what I imagine my PC sounding like (can't even touch femShep and FemHawke because their voices make me wanna slam my PC's head in to the ground until they're silent edit: well that's not entirely truthful. I'm trudging through a femShep game currently even if most of the time is spent gnashing my teeth and wishing for a mute Shepard and ONLY Shepard button). so no Silent is vastly preferred. 

As for having to deal with hearing the same line twice. Oh well. Compromises. I have to deal with a voice that may make me wanna strangle my PC you can deal with haring the same line twice.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 novembre 2011 - 10:13 .

[Kreid]

Voice is the future, we need more voiced characters so the formula can be refined and expanded upon so one day, the system is good enough that we can roleplay a voiced character.

Modifié par Creid-X, 02 novembre 2011 - 10:11 .

[maxernst]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

G00N3R7883 wrote...

Its worth saying that I've played through ME1 four times, and ME2 three times, and I've never felt that this was an issue in either game. Shepard usually says pretty much what I expect him/her to say based on the paraphrase.

I found that Shepard routinely said entirely the wrong thing.

You know in general, I agree with you, though  I've noticed in my second playthrough of DA2 that most of the time I only remember the paraphrase option I chose, not what Hawke actually said.  The times when I remember the spoken dialogue were when he said something that was egregiously far from what I intended.  So selective memory may be playing a part.

I do agree with you that the paraphrasing system is inadequate and I actually found--to my surprise--that the tone icons in DA2 made it worse for me.  I've never spent so much time trying to decide which dialogue options to choose as I have in DA2 because I would say that most of the time I would choose different dialogue options if I were choosing by tone than I would choosing by the paraphrase content.  And to still be dissatisfied with what was actually said after hemming and hawing over my choice for several minutes was really irritating. 

Modifié par maxernst, 02 novembre 2011 - 10:12 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Well, lets assume for the moment that the solution is already being implemented so it's not really a toggle.

Now imagine that there's an option in the menu to set how many seconds you have to wait before the full line appears.

0 seconds = No paraphrase appears at all, or, the full line is displayed the instant the option is highlighted

That would be fine.  I'd set it to zero right out of the gate and never look at it again.

That's effectively a toggle.

[Sylvius the Mad]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Learn to deal I like that "It would take longer" is your only complaint, though. It seems really nitpicky and more than a little petty.

The game moves forward at the speed pf my decision-making.  This is true in dialogue, exploration, and combat.

Or rather, it was true in combat until DA2 came along and just went super fast regardless of my preference.

When I need to ponder I can ponder, and when I don't need to ponder I can race through it.  Having the pace of my gameplay constrained by that would be annoying.  Particularly because it didn't used to be true.

If a new feature has a downside, I'm going to point it out.

[Sylvius the Mad]

maxernst wrote...

I do agree with you that the paraphrasing system is inadequate and I actually found--to my surprise--that the tone icons in DA2 made it worse for me. 

I found that, too.  Because I didn't know what the tone icons actually meant, I was guessing with regard to the line and with regard to the tone, and often I'd find myself torn between the tone I wanted and the content I wanted, and whichever I chose I was just as likely to get neither as to get both.

[Herr Uhl]

I'd prefer a silent protagonist as it would be cheaper and I generally prefer it.

I'd rather have full lines, and if there is to be VO, a refined system of the tone indicator.

[mesmerizedish]

Zjarcal wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Complaining about "hearing the line twice" is tantamount to complaining about having to look at the item twice.

That's a ridiculous analogy.

Why?

Zjarcal wrote...

Ah, it's a shame I hadn't read this post before. Yes, those of us who like something different than you are "crazy and stupid". Thanks for enlightening me.

I never said that at all.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Rojahar wrote...

Combat went at the speed of your decision-making in DAO? Just how long does it take you for thought to turn to action? "I want to attack... let me hesitate for a while, then take several minutes to slowly shuffle and swing-- Oh, the enemy's already dead. Let me swing at the air, then hesitate, and shuffle over to the next one."

Better than having 8 things happen in the time it takes for a fireball to cross the battlefield.

At least if these games had a combat log we could keep track of what was happening better.

[maxernst]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Rojahar wrote...

Combat went at the speed of your decision-making in DAO? Just how long does it take you for thought to turn to action? "I want to attack... let me hesitate for a while, then take several minutes to slowly shuffle and swing-- Oh, the enemy's already dead. Let me swing at the air, then hesitate, and shuffle over to the next one."

Better than having 8 things happen in the time it takes for a fireball to cross the battlefield.

At least if these games had a combat log we could keep track of what was happening better.

I think DA2 was consciously designed for the player to control only one character and use tactics to control the rest, most of the time, whereas DA:O favored more micromanagement.

[TheBlackBaron]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

I remember the Warden being a silent protaganist was a fairly common point of detraction in professional reviews.

I don't remember that at all.

What I do remember is David Gaider saying, prior to DAO's release, that they didn't know how the public of gaming media would react to a silent PC now that they'd seen a very similar game with a voiced PC in ME, and whether they switched to a voiced PC for future DA titles would likely be based on how well DAO was received, particularly with regard to the silent protagonist.

I'd love them to make a similar statement now about their likelihood to switch back to a silent PC being based on how DA2's voiced PC was received.

It's possible that time is making it seem more common in my mind than it actually was, but it definitely wasn't an unheard of complaint. I hear it quite a bit post-DA:O from those who defend and prefer DA2's approach and maybe that's making me think it was more common in reviews of Origins. 

As for Bioware switching back to a silent PC based on the reception to DA2...I doubt it. Opinions are pretty split, as this thread shows. And since imo another part of the justification for Hawke and a voiced PC is that it's less time-consuming to develop than writing for a variety of PC options as in Origins, so long as they keep on the more action RPG, shorter development time trajectory Laidlaw has set the franchise on I don't see a 50-50 divide being enough to get them to change it. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

I enjoy watching my characters carry out my commands, but I can't do that in DA2 without missing most of the action.

It would be less of a problem if events were tracked in a combat log so I could then go back to see what happened, but as it is DA2 it just way too fast.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I think even DAO is too fast given the lack of a combat log. I can't keep track of every event on the battlefield (every resist, every damage roll, every hit or miss) even at DAO's speed, because the feedback doesn't pause along with the game.

And obviously DA2 is too fast for that.

[Sylvius the Mad]

maxernst wrote...

I think DA2 was consciously designed for the player to control only one character and use tactics to control the rest, most of the time, whereas DA:O favored more micromanagement.

If most of the enemies are killed without me even having to know that they're there, why am I bothering to play the game at all?  What is the point of my input if the party would defeat the enemies regardless?

[Xewaka]

Paraphrases are completely useless (mathematically demonstrable to be useless, due to their limited character number). Thus, I go with full line, because it's the only one that actually gives me information to choose what my character will say, instead of guessing it.
I'm neutral on the voice.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Rojahar wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

maxernst wrote...

I think DA2 was consciously designed for the player to control only one character and use tactics to control the rest, most of the time, whereas DA:O favored more micromanagement.

If most of the enemies are killed without me even having to know that they're there, why am I bothering to play the game at all?  What is the point of my input if the party would defeat the enemies regardless?

Good luck trying that on the harder difficulties. XD

Well, I'm done with DA2 (I simply didn't like the game, so I stopped playing), but when I started out on Hard I'd say the game was significantly easier than DAO was on Hard.

Until I enabled Friendly Fire (with a mod, obviously).  With FF on, because FF was so badly balanced in DA2, both Hard and Normal were suddenly more difficult than DAO's Hard setting (even though DAO's Hard setting had full FF).

I play whichever difficulty setting offers the most internally sensical ruleset.  In DA2, none of them do that.

[Zjarcal]

maxernst wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Rojahar wrote...

Combat went at the speed of your decision-making in DAO? Just how long does it take you for thought to turn to action? "I want to attack... let me hesitate for a while, then take several minutes to slowly shuffle and swing-- Oh, the enemy's already dead. Let me swing at the air, then hesitate, and shuffle over to the next one."

Better than having 8 things happen in the time it takes for a fireball to cross the battlefield.

At least if these games had a combat log we could keep track of what was happening better.

I think DA2 was consciously designed for the player to control only one character and use tactics to control the rest, most of the time, whereas DA:O favored more micromanagement.

Maybe on casual or normal, but certainly not on nightmare. I find myself micromanaging the whole party even more in DA2 than I did in DAO on nightmare.

[Dubya75]

I have a friend at work who says PC gaming killed table-top RPGs (which is according to him, the only true form of RPG)
Same way in which the internet is causing the libraries to close and video killed the radio star...and the Voiced Protagonist is apparently now also killing RPGaming...

There is a clear pattern here: People reject change and progress and then go around preaching doom and gloom.
Seen it a million times!

HEH...

Modifié par Dubya75, 02 novembre 2011 - 11:31 .

[bEVEsthda]

Dubya75 wrote...

I have a friend at work who says PC gaming killed table-top RPGs (which is according to him, the only true form of RPG)
Same way in which the internet is causing the libraries to close and video killed the radio star...and the Voiced Protagonist is apparently now also killing RPGaming...

There is a clear pattern here: People reject change and progress and then go around preaching doom and gloom.
Seen it a million times!

HEH...

Yes, by all means let us steam full speed onwards. What's a few icebergs, eh? - I mean, now when you can see a clear pattern and all.

[yuncas]

I prefer the silent PC almost solely because the voiced PC seemed to limit the dialogue choice so completely.