436 réponses à ce sujet

[schalafi]

Xewaka wrote...

schalafi wrote...
That's fine, play the game however you want, but there are a lot of posters who keep saying how much they hate the paraphrasing, so let them learn which responses they would like to use, and which don't say what they meant. If you play the game more than once, you'll eventually know what responses you want.
I don't know how much of an informed decision you can make when the choice isn't what you wanted to say.

That exactly the problem with paraphrases, it doesn't allow you to make an informed decision.
The full line, on the other side, does.
Having to pick all options and reload is an extremely clumsy solution to a problem that shouldn't be there in the first place.

I agree, but the way this game is made, it's the only way to find the response that most resembles what you would want to say, and after playing the game several times you know what you "don't" want to say.

[Killjoy Cutter]

If I have to choose, silent with the full line.

I'd like voiced with full lines, or with much better, much more accurate paraphrasing.

[MerinTB]

schalafi wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

schalafi wrote...
If you don't know which line to choose it only takes ONE SECOND to hit QUICK SAVE and then see what the paraphrasing is. After playing the game 8 times I know what I want to say, and what I don't, so there's no problem.

Gah.  I'd HATE to play a game that way.

I like to make (informed) decisions and live with the consequences, not sample the different outcomes, reload, and pick the one I like best.

That's fine, play the game however you want, but there are a lot of posters who keep saying how much they hate the paraphrasing, so let them learn which responses they would like to use, and which don't say what they meant. If you play the game more than once, you'll eventually know what responses you want.

I don't know how much of an informed decision you can make when the choice isn't what you wanted to say.

I'm pretty sure this is "save scrumming" and developers hate it more than I do.  But I definitely don't see this as playing the game so much as "playing" the game, if you get the distinction.  I might as well use a strategy guide or walkthrough at this point.

You know what's quicker and easier than all that saving and reloading, having to relisten to or hit skip buttons to get over dialog?  Full text instead of the paraphrase.

Having to re-witness JUST witnessed scenes is one of my biggest turn-offs about gaming.  What you are suggesting is anathema to me.

And it's a work-around for an existing problem.  Why not ask for developers to do it differently to fix the problem as opposed to having to work around things myself?

[Sylvius the Mad]

schalafi wrote...

I agree, but the way this game is made, it's the only way to find the response that most resembles what you would want to say, and after playing the game several times you know what you "don't" want to say.

It would be less work, frankly, to dig through the game data and read the dialogue files.

[Killjoy Cutter]

MerinTB wrote...

schalafi wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

schalafi wrote...
If you don't know which line to choose it only takes ONE SECOND to hit QUICK SAVE and then see what the paraphrasing is. After playing the game 8 times I know what I want to say, and what I don't, so there's no problem.

Gah.  I'd HATE to play a game that way.

I like to make (informed) decisions and live with the consequences, not sample the different outcomes, reload, and pick the one I like best.

That's fine, play the game however you want, but there are a lot of posters who keep saying how much they hate the paraphrasing, so let them learn which responses they would like to use, and which don't say what they meant. If you play the game more than once, you'll eventually know what responses you want.

I don't know how much of an informed decision you can make when the choice isn't what you wanted to say.

I'm pretty sure this is "save scrumming" and developers hate it more than I do.  But I definitely don't see this as playing the game so much as "playing" the game, if you get the distinction.  I might as well use a strategy guide or walkthrough at this point.

You know what's quicker and easier than all that saving and reloading, having to relisten to or hit skip buttons to get over dialog?  Full text instead of the paraphrase.

Having to re-witness JUST witnessed scenes is one of my biggest turn-offs about gaming.  What you are suggesting is anathema to me.

And it's a work-around for an existing problem.  Why not ask for developers to do it differently to fix the problem as opposed to having to work around things myself?

If developers don't want me to "save scrum", they shouldn't repeatedly make me feel like I was set up to fail or take a path I never would have taken had I known what my character was actually going to say or do. 

I hit the quick save button A LOT, and that's not changing.

[Xewaka]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
If developers don't want me to "save scrum", they shouldn't repeatedly make me feel like I was set up to fail or take a path I never would have taken had I known what my character was actually going to say or do. 
I hit the quick save button A LOT, and that's not changing.

I compulsively hit quicksave button every minute or so. That doesn't mean I should be forced to hit quickload by an inadequate game design choice every minute or so as well.

[petercrook60]

i voted for voice, but they sure need for the voice to say what was written..

[MerinTB]

Xewaka wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
If developers don't want me to "save scrum", they shouldn't repeatedly make me feel like I was set up to fail or take a path I never would have taken had I known what my character was actually going to say or do. 
I hit the quick save button A LOT, and that's not changing.

I compulsively hit quicksave button every minute or so. That doesn't mean I should be forced to hit quickload by an inadequate game design choice every minute or so as well.

Unless I'm so engrossed that I forget, I'm quicksaving like a fiend as well.  But I do that precisely BECAUSE I hate redoing content right after having finished it.  The less backtracking I have to do, the happier I am.

You can be a fan of quicksaving every 30 seconds to minute and NOT be a fan of constantly reloading.  They are NOT mutually exclusive concepts.

[Nighteye2]

schalafi wrote...
If you play the game more than once, you'll eventually know what responses you want.

But I want to enjoy the game the first time I play it, too. When I don't already know every line of text...

[schalafi]

Nighteye2 wrote...

schalafi wrote...
If you play the game more than once, you'll eventually know what responses you want.

But I want to enjoy the game the first time I play it, too. When I don't already know every line of text...

The first time I played the game I made some very unfortunate dialogue choices, because I didn't realize it was all paraphrased. But I'm playing the game for the 8th time, and I know what to avoid. I don't care about a lot of the dialogue, except with my npcs and if I insult the Vicount, or Meridith, I don't really think it's such a tragedy, because I can usually redeem myself in a later dialogue, but I don't like to alienate my party.

[OMTING52601]

Voiced with better paraphrasing. And, lmao, a liner note that says if you hit the flirt line twice captain crazy tries to eat your face.

[Sharn01]

petercrook60 wrote...

i voted for voice, but they sure need for the voice to say what was written..

The voting results wouldnt be so close if the paraphrase system properly conveyed what the character would say, DA2 paraphrase system is so bad they could have only used the tone icon and players would have been no more suprised by what Hawke said more then half the time.

[Persephone]

Sharn01 wrote...

petercrook60 wrote...

i voted for voice, but they sure need for the voice to say what was written..

The voting results wouldnt be so close if the paraphrase system properly conveyed what the character would say, DA2 paraphrase system is so bad they could have only used the tone icon and players would have been no more suprised by what Hawke said more then half the time.

Hmmmmm. Maybe playing the ME series was helpful to me there but I didn't run into all that many surprises. It's not that hard to figure out after a few scenes to get used to it.

[Atakuma]

Sharn01 wrote...

petercrook60 wrote...

i voted for voice, but they sure need for the voice to say what was written..

The voting results wouldnt be so close if the paraphrase system properly conveyed what the character would say, DA2 paraphrase system is so bad they could have only used the tone icon and players would have been no more suprised by what Hawke said more then half the time.

The paraphrase system isn't supposed to convey what the character is going to say, it's there to show the intent and tone of the dialogue.

[Gunderic]

How about we take the Dragon Age franchise, and remove the voiced protagonist from it.. forever. It's the first step that would lead to a completely different game.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I liked the voiced protagonist but I seriously think the paraphrasing needs dramatic improvement in the future. Sometimes the paraphrase and the speech were completely different, even in many of the cases when Hawke didn't say anything tha sounds bad. Sometimes the paraphrase was longer than what Hawke said too.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 05 novembre 2011 - 08:53 .

[SirOccam]

 Although I will grant that the voiced/paraphrase system isn't perfect, and indeed can never be perfect, I do think its strengths outweigh its weaknesses.

Personally I think they handled it great in DA2. I know a lot of people disagree with me on that, even people who are in favor of paraphrasis, but I really think the system as it stands is more than adequate. There are a few instances where maybe the paraphrase wasn't as accurate, and maybe a few tweaks could be made, but honestly, everyone is different and will react and comprehend things differently. In fact, I maintain that even the full verbatim line being printed wouldn't remove 100% of the ambiguity.

[SirOccam]

simfamSP wrote...

Look, Voiced or Silent I want the full dialogue, paraphrasing isn't 'saving resources' it's just lazy and really unnecessary, if it's done, well do it right. But then the question comes up... what is right? So isn't it just have the full dialogue and make everybody happy?

No, that wouldn't make everybody happy, and yes there are reasons for paraphrasing beyond being "lazy." I don't think "saving resources" has even been mentioned as one of the reasons for it.

1. Even a full printed line is susceptible to ambiguity. Is it being said genuinely, sarcastically, etc.?
2. It is simply awkward to have a full line there and then have the actor say that exact line.
3. There would be no convenient way to display a back-and-forth that might result from a single choice. Making the player choose these options would be tedious at best, and removing them from the game removes a good way of making the dialogue smoother and more natural-sounding.
4. The lines would have to be kept arbitrarily short to fit in the UI, and content should never be dictated by presentation. (This is why I hate stuff like "after the jump" in articles.)

[Urazz]

Persephone wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

petercrook60 wrote...

i voted for voice, but they sure need for the voice to say what was written..

The voting results wouldnt be so close if the paraphrase system properly conveyed what the character would say, DA2 paraphrase system is so bad they could have only used the tone icon and players would have been no more suprised by what Hawke said more then half the time.

Hmmmmm. Maybe playing the ME series was helpful to me there but I didn't run into all that many surprises. It's not that hard to figure out after a few scenes to get used to it.

Yeah, it's the same with me as well.  I was rarely surpised by what was said by Hawke with each choice in DA2.  He pretty much said what I picked.  Maybe not worded exactly how I expected it to be but the overall meaning of what was said in the line was what I expected it to be.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sharn01 wrote...

The voting results wouldnt be so close
if the paraphrase system properly conveyed what the character would
say, DA2 paraphrase system is so bad they could have only used the tone
icon and players would have been no more suprised by what Hawke said
more then half the time.

Probably less surprised, actually.  Without the paraphrase, players wouldn't draw as many conclusions to be contradicted later.

Atakuma wrote...

The paraphrase system isn't supposed to convey what the character is going to say, it's there to show the intent and tone of the dialogue.

What does that even mean?  I've heard this said a lot on defense of DA2's dialogue system, but what you're saying is meaningless.  How can the paraphrase represent the intent and yet leave the player completely in the dark as to what is going to be said?

[Ghidorah14]

Ya know what we need in DA3, to really blow people away and possibly satisfy everyone?

1. Voiced protagonist from DA2.
2. Multiple dialogue lines from DAO.

and most importantly,

3. Use the tone indicators from DA2, but in a different way.

Here's my idea.

You choose your line of dialogue, THEN, you choose the tone of that line.

This way, you can have something as simple as "Thats so sad" be taken 3 different ways; kind/diplomatic, sarcastic/charming, and direct/aggressive.

Thats what i think would kick serious ass in DA3. Its the best of both worlds with a new twist.

Modifié par Ghidorah14, 06 novembre 2011 - 04:44 .

[DrFumb1ezX]

Ghidorah14 wrote...

Ya know what we need in DA3, to really blow people away and possibly satisfy everyone?

1. Voiced protagonist from DA2.
2. Multiple dialogue lines from DAO.

and most importantly,

3. Use the tone indicators from DA2, but in a different way.

Here's my idea.

You choose your line of dialogue, THEN, you choose the tone of that line.

This way, you can have something as simple as "Thats so sad" be taken 3 different ways; kind/diplomatic, sarcastic/charming, and direct/aggressive.

Thats what i think would kick serious ass in DA3. Its the best of both worlds with a new twist.

While great in theory, that's a huge amount of resources to to basically say the same thing three times. Not really feasible to my pessimistic mind.

Modifié par soccerchick, 06 novembre 2011 - 05:02 .