189 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

If anyone has read the myraid of threads about the dichotomy between templars and mages, then they see that there's a significant difference of opinion between people who support the Chantry controlled Circles and the Chantry of Andraste, and the people who disagree with the status quo for the mages of the Circles of Magi. The debates between both sides have gotten to the point where the creators of Dragon Age have become involved at times. In the aftermath of the Right of Annulment, Cassandra is trying to find Hawke to talk to the respective faction that he sided with, but how realistic is her goal of getting the Champion to stop a war between two sides that have such different goals?

Considering that Dragon Age 2 dealt with the crumbling relationship between the mages and templars, to the point where mages and templars rebelled from the Chantry, I don't see any future where there's a compromise between mages and templars. In fact, there's not even a compromise between fans who support the Chantry and the Order of Templars, and the fans who agree with changing the status quo for the mages in the Circles of Magi.

The narrative of Origins and Dragon Age 2 invited the player to make a choice and form an opinion about the Chantry, the templars, and the mages, but when the issues deal with the Chantry and the templars overseeing mages, and mages being free of the templars and the Chantry, I don't see a middle ground. I don't think a compromise is realistic when the goals between the two factions are irreconcilable.

[AlexXIV]

I believe reasonable people can find solutions other than killing each other. Just there were none, or not enough of these in DA2.

But what I think is impossible is to unite the established belief of the Chantry and mages. Unless the Chantry faces reformations and and drops their paranoia and habit to spread it wherever they go.

[Herr Uhl]

So according to you there's slightly worse than the Qun or less restriction than Tevinter?

And people on the internets are far more prone to stick by their opinion as long as there is no stake in it.

[esper]

I agree it isn't realistic in the dragon age. Realistic speaking both templars and mages need to fight a couple of ages untill they have forgotten what they are fighting about and relgion simply doesn't matter in the discussing anymore. I would prefer that the templars and mages fighting would be a piece of the background lore for future games in the franchnise.
However I fear that we might be forced to do some weak unrealistic compromise.

[Kasces]

Since the Templars left the Chantry too, it's not. For all the propaganda, religion was about the only thing that let Templars and Mages meet eyes, and I can't recall a single NPC that thought both sides could co exist and interpreted Chantry teachings didn't play apart in that view. I'm speaking of those people that the conflict is specific to, so I'm not counting other obvious views like Dalish teachings. You either get Chantry interpretation, they can't co exist, apathetic ones like Varric, or a PC where we can make our views whatever we wish.

Which is why Sanda's little prophecy of magic returning to everyone -period- is interesting....

Modifié par Kasces, 27 octobre 2011 - 04:43 .

[TEWR]

Kasces wrote...

Since the Templars left the Chantry too, it's not. For all the propaganda, religion was about the only thing that let Templars and Mages meet eyes, and I can't recall a single NPC that thought both sides could co exist and interpreted Chantry teachings didn't play apart in that view. I'm speaking of those people that the conflict is specific to, so I'm not counting other obvious views like Dalish teachings. You either get Chantry interpretation, they can't co exist, apathetic ones like Varric, or a PC where we can make our views whatever we wish.

Which is why Sanda's little prophecy of magic returning to everyone -period- is interesting....

Thrask thought mages and Templars could live side-by-side and work together.

Poor guy was killed by plot stupidity though, which can be traced back to Act of Mercy's plot stupidity.

[Wulfram]

Most Templars want to keep the general public safe. They've got to see that an endless war against the Mages isn't going to achieve that.

Most Mages want to live a more or less normal life, in safety. They're not going to be able to do that if they're forever on the run.

I don't see compromise is all that impossible, particularly if that compromise has the backing of the Divine which the presence of the Seekers and her personal agent implies. Though it may be coming too early - there's probably not been enough time for the Mage's revolutionary fervour to cool down, or for the Templars to realise the futility of attempting to either force the restoration of the old system or exterminate all mages.

Modifié par Wulfram, 27 octobre 2011 - 04:55 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The best explanation I can come up with for Thrask's death is that in his dedication to overthrowing Meredith, he foolishly neglected his duties as a templar and didn't guard his mage allies closely enough to watch for demons and blood magic. That doesn't explain why he'd order his followers to kidnap the Champions comrade in order to force Hawke to help him even though he "has nothing but respect" for them.

[TEWR]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The best explanation I can come up with for Thrask's death is that in his dedication to overthrowing Meredith, he foolishly neglected his duties as a templar and didn't guard his mage allies closely enough to watch for demons and blood magic. That doesn't explain why he'd order his followers to kidnap the Champions comrade in order to force Hawke to help him even though he "has nothing but respect" for them.

What I hate is that Thrask can say "I know you supported the First Enchanter. I hope you'll be ready to stand against Meredith should the time come" or something like that, and yet in BSC he acts like I'm supporting Meredith!

And then BSC has a bunch of Templars and Mages going "We know you're spying for Orsino!".

It's one of the biggest loads of fail I've seen in a quest (and most of the loads of fail come straight out of DAII itself).

[Cobra's_back]

Kasces wrote...

Since the Templars left the Chantry too, it's not. For all the propaganda, religion was about the only thing that let Templars and Mages meet eyes, and I can't recall a single NPC that thought both sides could co exist and interpreted Chantry teachings didn't play apart in that view. I'm speaking of those people that the conflict is specific to, so I'm not counting other obvious views like Dalish teachings. You either get Chantry interpretation, they can't co exist, apathetic ones like Varric, or a PC where we can make our views whatever we wish.

Which is why Sanda's little prophecy of magic returning to everyone -period- is interesting....

I'm with you on this.


I believe the Chantry is corrupt. If both sides get the religious stuff out, they could come to a conclusion.

Even better, they find out Antraste was a mage, and the Chantry covered it up (just hoping).  I thought the book “Asunder” was going to have Wynne’s son find out a secret that would change everything. This would do it. I would love to be the hero that made sure Wynne’s son was safe and his information got back to  Ferelden and Free March. It may mean war against Orlais but they tried to conquer Ferelden before and lost.

[Cobra's_back]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The best explanation I can come up with for Thrask's death is that in his dedication to overthrowing Meredith, he foolishly neglected his duties as a templar and didn't guard his mage allies closely enough to watch for demons and blood magic. That doesn't explain why he'd order his followers to kidnap the Champions comrade in order to force Hawke to help him even though he "has nothing but respect" for them.

What I hate is that Thrask can say "I know you supported the First Enchanter. I hope you'll be ready to stand against Meredith should the time come" or something like that, and yet in BSC he acts like I'm supporting Meredith!

And then BSC has a bunch of Templars and Mages going "We know you're spying for Orsino!".

It's one of the biggest loads of fail I've seen in a quest (and most of the loads of fail come straight out of DAII itself).

Totally agree. I really did not care for ACT3. It was a waste.

[Cobra's_back]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The best explanation I can come up with for Thrask's death is that in his dedication to overthrowing Meredith, he foolishly neglected his duties as a templar and didn't guard his mage allies closely enough to watch for demons and blood magic. That doesn't explain why he'd order his followers to kidnap the Champions comrade in order to force Hawke to help him even though he "has nothing but respect" for them.

Poor writing.

[TEWR]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The best explanation I can come up with for Thrask's death is that in his dedication to overthrowing Meredith, he foolishly neglected his duties as a templar and didn't guard his mage allies closely enough to watch for demons and blood magic. That doesn't explain why he'd order his followers to kidnap the Champions comrade in order to force Hawke to help him even though he "has nothing but respect" for them.

What I hate is that Thrask can say "I know you supported the First Enchanter. I hope you'll be ready to stand against Meredith should the time come" or something like that, and yet in BSC he acts like I'm supporting Meredith!

And then BSC has a bunch of Templars and Mages going "We know you're spying for Orsino!".

It's one of the biggest loads of fail I've seen in a quest (and most of the loads of fail come straight out of DAII itself).

Totally agree. I really did not care for ACT3. It was a waste.

Yea Act 3 was just horrendous, but imo much of Act 3's problems draw back to Act 1 and Act 2 and even the prologue.

For me, where DAII failed was that it told 3 individual stories within the game but didn't link them together to the real plot of DAII. The Mage-Templar conflict and Hawke's rise to Power.

The player doesn't get to meaningfully take a side nor does the player get to do a believable Rise to Power.

Act 1 and Act 2 had interesting stories on their own, but weren't utilized to their full extent for what happened in Kirkwall in the Gallows.

IMO of course.

[maxernst]

Compromise only appears impossible because practically everyone in Kirkwall is a lunatic. From the codices we read in DA:O, we know that most mages are not resolutionists, that in fact most do want to compromise, and some are even content with the system as it stands. And there are reasonable templars--Gregoir and Thrask come to mine--with whom a compromise should be possible. (Don't try to analyze the motives of anybody in Best Served Cold: that quest is an utter mess ).

As to the Chantry, they don't actually seem to be very actively involved in the operation of Circles; it seems to me that the Knight Commanders have a great deal of discretionary power. Though that might be partly just that Elthina was particularly ineffectual. The Divine really ought to be able to distance herself from the events in Kirkwall, blaming it on an insane Knight Commander and a Grand Cleric who failed to do her duty. If she plays her cards right, she can argue that this tragedy could have been averted with more chantry oversight to mediate Templar/mage disputes.

[Gervaise]

The problem is we don't yet know why the Templars rebelled - this is to be told in the upcoming book.

We know there was already unrest among the mages, that word had got out that Kirkwall was boiling up to something big and so the spotlight was already on the city when the big bang came. Almost the last sensible thing Orsino says is that if the survivors of Kirkwall Circle have any hope, it is in the other Circles, particularly if they rise up against the injustice of the RoA. Evidently this happened, although they may have been other catalysts apart from Kirkwall.

On the face of it there is no real reason for the Templars to rebel unless the Chantry forbade them to go after the renegade mages or in some other way made them feel they couldn't do they duty. Since the Chantry are trying to make a peace, it seems highly unlikely that they were ordering the Templars to kill all the mages. The advanced publicity for the book suggests that something happens at Templar headquarters that causes the problems.

So I would suggest that what the PC will be required to do is a combination of informing the various parties of the real cause of the situation and possibly also rally the two sides (and other factions for all we know) against a common enemy. This could be anything from a full scale Qunari invasion, to some fiendish plan of Corypheus, or some other yet unknown protagonist.

My guess is that it will actually be something so big that everyone, that is Tevinter, Chantry, Mages, Templars, Kings, Emperors and the Qunari will be required to put aside their differences and work for a common cause - in order words saving Thedas from a major threat. This would entail either a lot of travelling to different locations or at least recruiting the representatives sent to assist and can will thus involve lots of different characters with their respective cultural differences.

Then again, may be I'm thinking too big and it will just be reconciling the mages and templars.

[AlexXIV]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yea Act 3 was just horrendous, but imo much of Act 3's problems draw back to Act 1 and Act 2 and even the prologue.

For me, where DAII failed was that it told 3 individual stories within the game but didn't link them together to the real plot of DAII. The Mage-Templar conflict and Hawke's rise to Power.

The player doesn't get to meaningfully take a side nor does the player get to do a believable Rise to Power.

Act 1 and Act 2 had interesting stories on their own, but weren't utilized to their full extent for what happened in Kirkwall in the Gallows.

IMO of course.

Yeah, each act could have been an entire game.

[esper]

Gervaise wrote...

The problem is we don't yet know why the Templars rebelled - this is to be told in the upcoming book.

We know there was already unrest among the mages, that word had got out that Kirkwall was boiling up to something big and so the spotlight was already on the city when the big bang came. Almost the last sensible thing Orsino says is that if the survivors of Kirkwall Circle have any hope, it is in the other Circles, particularly if they rise up against the injustice of the RoA. Evidently this happened, although they may have been other catalysts apart from Kirkwall.

On the face of it there is no real reason for the Templars to rebel unless the Chantry forbade them to go after the renegade mages or in some other way made them feel they couldn't do they duty. Since the Chantry are trying to make a peace, it seems highly unlikely that they were ordering the Templars to kill all the mages. The advanced publicity for the book suggests that something happens at Templar headquarters that causes the problems.

So I would suggest that what the PC will be required to do is a combination of informing the various parties of the real cause of the situation and possibly also rally the two sides (and other factions for all we know) against a common enemy. This could be anything from a full scale Qunari invasion, to some fiendish plan of Corypheus, or some other yet unknown protagonist.

My guess is that it will actually be something so big that everyone, that is Tevinter, Chantry, Mages, Templars, Kings, Emperors and the Qunari will be required to put aside their differences and work for a common cause - in order words saving Thedas from a major threat. This would entail either a lot of travelling to different locations or at least recruiting the representatives sent to assist and can will thus involve lots of different characters with their respective cultural differences.

Then again, may be I'm thinking too big and it will just be reconciling the mages and templars.

Bioware already did that. It was called the blight and they actually did it realistic. The people of Ferelden was capable of putting the prejudices to the side long enough to let dalish (or werewolves), mages (or templars) and dwarves (or an dwarven run golem army) and humans work together long enough to defeat the arc demon, but after that it all fell to pieces again in a year or two. (Look at all the non-cousland boons for example).

[Finnish Dragon]

I think the worst idea in Dragon Age II was the idea that someone (Varric) would narrate a story which would explain the situation when the story is told. The problem is that this needs a linear plot because the final result is already known. I suspect that Bioware wants to have as much trouble in Thedas as possible when Dragon Age III begins.

In practice, it requires that certain key persons like Thrask, Orsino and Meredith must die. They were other people who were at the eye of the hurricane and they could report their versions to the chantry seekers. In practice, the Act III is pretty much about the plot killing of key witnesses and making Chantry Seeker Cassandra´s work harder. However, Cassandra got lucky and her men were able to catch Varric, who was Hawke´s friend and an important witness.

It is another question that what happened to other friends of Hawke like Aveline who as the Captain of the Guard witnessed how the situation developed at Kirkwall. It would be difficult to understand why after Meredith´s death Hawke and his friends would leave Kirkwall? That is never explained.

It would be interesting to know what happened to Cullen and other templars who witnessed Meredith going crazy? What did they report to the Templars about the events? I think it is quite difficult to understand why was Cassandra so clueless while there were other leads than Varric as well.

[Cobra's_back]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...



Yea Act 3 was just horrendous, but imo much of Act 3's problems draw back to Act 1 and Act 2 and even the prologue.

For me, where DAII failed was that it told 3 individual stories within the game but didn't link them together to the real plot of DAII. The Mage-Templar conflict and Hawke's rise to Power.

The player doesn't get to meaningfully take a side nor does the player get to do a believable Rise to Power.

Act 1 and Act 2 had interesting stories on their own, but weren't utilized to their full extent for what happened in Kirkwall in the Gallows.

IMO of course.

Totally agree. I had friends say the same thing.

[The dead fish]

It could be totally realistic. Some of you need really to get out of their delusions, feel a bit of real life and leave the subject ( mage / templar ) aside. It will kill you.

There are lots of possibilities to explore. Stop pretending to know everything, have all the answers, and set your little personal rules that are simply a reflection of your narrow minds.

[TEWR]

AlexXIV wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yea Act 3 was just horrendous, but imo much of Act 3's problems draw back to Act 1 and Act 2 and even the prologue.

For me, where DAII failed was that it told 3 individual stories within the game but didn't link them together to the real plot of DAII. The Mage-Templar conflict and Hawke's rise to Power.

The player doesn't get to meaningfully take a side nor does the player get to do a believable Rise to Power.

Act 1 and Act 2 had interesting stories on their own, but weren't utilized to their full extent for what happened in Kirkwall in the Gallows.

IMO of course.

Yeah, each act could have been an entire game.

It's not even that really. It's just that the three stories do nothing for the bigger overall story of who Hawke is. A lot needed to be done for all three Acts to make the player feel like each one mattered for who the Champion of Kirkwall is and what happened between the Mages and the Templars.

It's... hard for me to explain without spoiling my DAII fanfic.

[TEWR]

Finnish Dragon wrote...

I think the worst idea in Dragon Age II was the idea that someone (Varric) would narrate a story which would explain the situation when the story is told. The problem is that this needs a linear plot because the final result is already known. I suspect that Bioware wants to have as much trouble in Thedas as possible when Dragon Age III begins.

not really. The player only knows that the Champion's actions had something to do with why the world is at war, but that doesn't mean that the game itself or even the ending must be linear. There are ways the narrative could've changed significantly even with Varric being the narrator. Bioware just chose the easiest -- and worst imo -- route for DAII so they could grab that quick buck.

[Gervaise]

In my most recent run through of DA2 I took one of their pre-made scenarios. In this the Warden sacrifices herself, Alistair is king, the warden in Vigil's Keep was clearly the Orlesian one, Nathaniel Howe is alive and so is the Architect. Now I don't know if the same is true of the last 2 statements if you take one of their other pre-mades but on the basis of the above, plus what we know from DA2, Legacy and MoA and the books that set the scene for Origins and Awakening:
a) The Architect's plan was not just to make the darkspawn sentient but to make everybody into darkspawn so there would be no need to fight on that basis. For this he needed Grey Warden blood. The Architect was seeking the old gods to try and stop them becoming archdemons. This failed with the first one he found - may be with assistance the next encounter may be more successful.
An ancient Tevinter magister has recently been released back into the world in the body of a Grey Warden. Whether the Architect was also an ancient magister who lost his memory or not, Corypheus does remember who he is and no doubt all his former knowledge. The last time this Magister exercised his power, it ended disasterously for him but who knows if he will learn from this - he may just blame it on Dumat and the old gods generally.
c) The warden who spared the Architect and Hawke who freed Corypheus have both gone missing - Lelianna is of the opinion that this is not a coincidence - I am inclinded to agree.
d) The Grey Wardens took the trouble to have treaties with the non human agencies of dwarves and elves but also with the Circles of Magi. Clearly they feel that mages are vital to any war against the darkspawn. There are now no Circles to call on for aid.
e) The Qunari have a large sleeper network, possibly throughout Thedas, which they can call on when needed. If an alternative threat presented itself in a particular country, might not the Qunari be persuaded to utilise their forces?

So whilst in Origins we fought an ordinary darkspawn threat, we have yet to encounter a large number of intelligent darkspawn led by a tactically astute and magically gifted individual - Corypheus could be just such a person. Such an army would be an entirely different problem to that presented by former Blights because they won't just mindlessly swarm across the countryside, waiting to be killed and furthermore, currently we do not know how to destroy their leader. Finding a solution to this problem could be part of the PCs role.

[ReallyRue]

I don't know, I think that if they changed the Circle so that mages had more control and freedom, but templars were still involved, there could be a compromise. Both sides would have to make concessions, and they might not reach it until after bloodshed, but I don't think it's impossible.

I'm not entirely sure what the templars are doing (the ones who leave the Chantry), but I doubt the mages would all want (or could afford) to fight a war.