189 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

If anyone controls mages then it should be with as little bias as possible. So not overly sympathetic towards mages and neither have prejudice against them. That eliminates the Chantry as a candidate. I wouldn't mind templars who 'police' mages as long as they do it open minded and indepent from other power players of Thedas. Much like the Wardens. Honestly, if Wardens can exist politically neutral in Thedas, then why not a templar order? It is really just about the Chantry being control freaks.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 28 octobre 2011 - 10:14 .

[maxernst]

esper wrote...

megski wrote...

esper wrote...

megski wrote...

What I wonder most about, is why the templar order breaks away from the chantry. Say a person wants to be a soldier, they do have choices. Either their kingdom's military or the templar order. No matter the reason I think most people do have a choice to be templars, excluding situations like Alistair who was just fell into it. Now, we know that there are sadistic people that join armies and militaries for all the wrong reasons, but lets just say that most templars join the order out of pure-hearted religious reasons. What would make a group of devout believers tear away from their convictions? Perhaps there is some horrible deep dark secret the chantry has, and once it gets out, mages and templars can unite together against a common enemy. If I hate you, but we both hate this other person MORE than we hate each other, why not join forces?

As I already say that happened in the blight. But once that enemy is defeated people forget that they were allied again in a decade or two or even less if we shall judge how well things went in Ferelden. If the underlying problem isn't solved they won't forget their hate and prejudices. 

I still think it's still possible, that people can movie on and learn to love each other....through hate?  

Eventually people begin to tire of fighting and hating, even mages and templars.  Maybe in a couple of decades a new generation of mages and templars would be born, and relationships could progress from there.  People that didn't know about all the prejudice and hate that their parents experienced or dished out.  But you could be right too, anything is possible.

I do think that people can move on. I just don't think it can happen in the dragon age. The wounds are too fresh. Mage children are going to learn about their hate from their parents. And no new generation of templars is born. From this point foreward people are going to joing the templars to hunt mages (since they are no longer part of the chantry).

I do however admit that this is a game.

One thing you have to remember is that the next generation of mages is mostly not the children of the current generation.  Some of them will even be the children of templars.

[LobselVith8]

maxernst wrote...

Except this is a false dichotomy. One doesn't need to be opposed to some form of the circles in principal to be opposed to Meredith's imposition of the rite of annulment.

I'm not addressing the Right of Annulment that transpired in Kirkwall, I am addressing the overall difference of opinion that fans have overall in views about the Chantry controlled Circles and the issue of mage autonomy from the templars. People have sided with one or the other in many threads pre-dating the release of Dragon Age 2, and I simply don't think that templars who want to govern mages are going to reach a compromise with mages who want to be free from the Chantry and the Order of Templars. Both groups want the exact opposite of the other, and if the conflict is erupting into a war (as the final scenes of Dragon Age 2 suggest) then I don't think a peaceful compromise is realistic, in the short term or long term.

[AlexXIV]

LobselVith8 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Except this is a false dichotomy. One doesn't need to be opposed to some form of the circles in principal to be opposed to Meredith's imposition of the rite of annulment.

I'm not addressing the Right of Annulment that transpired in Kirkwall, I am addressing the overall difference of opinion that fans have overall in views about the Chantry controlled Circles and the issue of mage autonomy from the templars. People have sided with one or the other in many threads pre-dating the release of Dragon Age 2, and I simply don't think that templars who want to govern mages are going to reach a compromise with mages who want to be free from the Chantry and the Order of Templars. Both groups want the exact opposite of the other, and if the conflict is erupting into a war (as the final scenes of Dragon Age 2 suggest) then I don't think a peaceful compromise is realistic, in the short term or long term.

In short term you may be right, in long term they will settle things somehow. There are two ways to settle things even with your enemy. Make a deal you both can live with, or destroy your enemy. Both end in peace. People tend to tire of war the longer it lasts. They may be eager to go to war at first, especially if they don't know war and think it is some kind of heroic adventure, but after years or even decades everyone from peasant to soldier to clerics to nobility will be tired and be looking forward to spend their golden days in peace.

[maxernst]

LobselVith8 wrote...

 I am addressing the overall difference of opinion that fans have overall in views about the Chantry controlled Circles and the issue of mage autonomy from the templars. People have sided with one or the other in many threads pre-dating the release of Dragon Age 2, and I simply don't think that templars who want to govern mages are going to reach a compromise with mages who want to be free from the Chantry and the Order of Templars. Both groups want the exact opposite of the other, and if the conflict is erupting into a war (as the final scenes of Dragon Age 2 suggest) then I don't think a peaceful compromise is realistic, in the short term or long term.

Whether compromise is possible between the fans is irrelevant.  We don't have to live with Templars and Mages.

Templars =/= "Templars who want to govern mages"

Mages =/= "Mages who want to be free from the Chantry and the Order of Templars."

And they're not the only interested parties.  The other 99% of the population of Thedas has a stake in this as well, and will eventually be able to force some sort of arrangement, which may very well be something neither the mages or the Templars want.

Modifié par maxernst, 28 octobre 2011 - 02:32 .

[esper]

maxernst wrote...

esper wrote...

megski wrote...

esper wrote...

megski wrote...

What I wonder most about, is why the templar order breaks away from the chantry. Say a person wants to be a soldier, they do have choices. Either their kingdom's military or the templar order. No matter the reason I think most people do have a choice to be templars, excluding situations like Alistair who was just fell into it. Now, we know that there are sadistic people that join armies and militaries for all the wrong reasons, but lets just say that most templars join the order out of pure-hearted religious reasons. What would make a group of devout believers tear away from their convictions? Perhaps there is some horrible deep dark secret the chantry has, and once it gets out, mages and templars can unite together against a common enemy. If I hate you, but we both hate this other person MORE than we hate each other, why not join forces?

As I already say that happened in the blight. But once that enemy is defeated people forget that they were allied again in a decade or two or even less if we shall judge how well things went in Ferelden. If the underlying problem isn't solved they won't forget their hate and prejudices. 

I still think it's still possible, that people can movie on and learn to love each other....through hate?  

Eventually people begin to tire of fighting and hating, even mages and templars.  Maybe in a couple of decades a new generation of mages and templars would be born, and relationships could progress from there.  People that didn't know about all the prejudice and hate that their parents experienced or dished out.  But you could be right too, anything is possible.

I do think that people can move on. I just don't think it can happen in the dragon age. The wounds are too fresh. Mage children are going to learn about their hate from their parents. And no new generation of templars is born. From this point foreward people are going to joing the templars to hunt mages (since they are no longer part of the chantry).

I do however admit that this is a game.

One thing you have to remember is that the next generation of mages is mostly not the children of the current generation.  Some of them will even be the children of templars.

enough of them will be.

[esper]

FemaleMageFan wrote...

But isn't that the beauty of it? drawn so much into the lore that we obsess over the choices? then the writer is successful at that yes?..oh don't mind me i love the game

true. Bioware has certainly created a problem for us to debate

[CrimsonZephyr]

AlexXIV wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Except this is a false dichotomy. One doesn't need to be opposed to some form of the circles in principal to be opposed to Meredith's imposition of the rite of annulment.

I'm not addressing the Right of Annulment that transpired in Kirkwall, I am addressing the overall difference of opinion that fans have overall in views about the Chantry controlled Circles and the issue of mage autonomy from the templars. People have sided with one or the other in many threads pre-dating the release of Dragon Age 2, and I simply don't think that templars who want to govern mages are going to reach a compromise with mages who want to be free from the Chantry and the Order of Templars. Both groups want the exact opposite of the other, and if the conflict is erupting into a war (as the final scenes of Dragon Age 2 suggest) then I don't think a peaceful compromise is realistic, in the short term or long term.

In short term you may be right, in long term they will settle things somehow. There are two ways to settle things even with your enemy. Make a deal you both can live with, or destroy your enemy. Both end in peace. People tend to tire of war the longer it lasts. They may be eager to go to war at first, especially if they don't know war and think it is some kind of heroic adventure, but after years or even decades everyone from peasant to soldier to clerics to nobility will be tired and be looking forward to spend their golden days in peace.

It might not even be drawn out. There might be places where mages and templars submit to nationalistic concerns and broker a separate peace. There may be places where the war gets really hot for a few years but then burns out as thousands are quickly and brutally killed. Not every mage will be Anders, not every templar will be Meredith, and there's no guarantee that every individual involved will share either of their aims, nor is it likely that the commanders of the respective armies will be as stupid.

[maxernst]

esper wrote...

maxernst wrote...

esper wrote...

megski wrote...

esper wrote...

megski wrote...

What I wonder most about, is why the templar order breaks away from the chantry. Say a person wants to be a soldier, they do have choices. Either their kingdom's military or the templar order. No matter the reason I think most people do have a choice to be templars, excluding situations like Alistair who was just fell into it. Now, we know that there are sadistic people that join armies and militaries for all the wrong reasons, but lets just say that most templars join the order out of pure-hearted religious reasons. What would make a group of devout believers tear away from their convictions? Perhaps there is some horrible deep dark secret the chantry has, and once it gets out, mages and templars can unite together against a common enemy. If I hate you, but we both hate this other person MORE than we hate each other, why not join forces?

As I already say that happened in the blight. But once that enemy is defeated people forget that they were allied again in a decade or two or even less if we shall judge how well things went in Ferelden. If the underlying problem isn't solved they won't forget their hate and prejudices. 

I still think it's still possible, that people can movie on and learn to love each other....through hate?  

Eventually people begin to tire of fighting and hating, even mages and templars.  Maybe in a couple of decades a new generation of mages and templars would be born, and relationships could progress from there.  People that didn't know about all the prejudice and hate that their parents experienced or dished out.  But you could be right too, anything is possible.

I do think that people can move on. I just don't think it can happen in the dragon age. The wounds are too fresh. Mage children are going to learn about their hate from their parents. And no new generation of templars is born. From this point foreward people are going to joing the templars to hunt mages (since they are no longer part of the chantry).

I do however admit that this is a game.

One thing you have to remember is that the next generation of mages is mostly not the children of the current generation.  Some of them will even be the children of templars.

enough of them will be.

And your expertise in mage genetics for this opinion is...?  Even if mages are 100x more likely to have mage children than non-mages, most mages will still be born to non-mages.  There just aren't that many mages to start with.

[tmp7704]

AlexXIV wrote...

In short term you may be right, in long term they will settle things somehow. There are two ways to settle things even with your enemy. Make a deal you both can live with, or destroy your enemy. Both end in peace.

Gandhi has demonstrated the third way, too. Although granted, doubt it'd work well in medieval society. (but on the other hand, DA is quite 'modern' in shown sensibilities and such, so who knows)

Modifié par tmp7704, 28 octobre 2011 - 03:52 .

[Huntress]

"then I don't think a peaceful compromise is realistic, in the short term or long term."

No it won't be possible to achieve, the Templars and the chantry will want to keep control, thats their Divine right and to the void with anything also, the only victims I see is the people who server under the Chantry army and that includes the templar, is sad really but when people want to be free they will fight to the death and get any weapon to stop the agressive party.

If anyone think war is going to stop is kidding him/herself check the dalish, battles always break when humans find a dalish group, for one reason or another.

If mages are allow to leave for ever, and never to come back thenThedas will fall to the qunari, they still have mages devoted to the qun and they have black powder. it seems to me the Qunari is going to destroy the chantry if not the mages.

[LobselVith8]

maxernst wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

 I am addressing the overall difference of opinion that fans have overall in views about the Chantry controlled Circles and the issue of mage autonomy from the templars. People have sided with one or the other in many threads pre-dating the release of Dragon Age 2, and I simply don't think that templars who want to govern mages are going to reach a compromise with mages who want to be free from the Chantry and the Order of Templars. Both groups want the exact opposite of the other, and if the conflict is erupting into a war (as the final scenes of Dragon Age 2 suggest) then I don't think a peaceful compromise is realistic, in the short term or long term.

Whether compromise is possible between the fans is irrelevant.  We don't have to live with Templars and Mages.

If people can't come to a hypothetical agreement, how likely is it that people living in the real world would be able to come to a compromise when their goals are complete opposites of the other? Templars rebelled to hunt down mages, and the mages rebelled from the Chantry and its templars. There are a sufficient number of real world examples to illustrate that it won't be a simple matter to resolve the dichotomy between the mages and the templars.

maxernst wrote...

Templars =/= "Templars who want to govern mages"

Mages =/= "Mages who want to be free from the Chantry and the Order of Templars."

Last time I checked, the ending to Dragon Age 2 showed Cassandra wanting Hawke's help to prevent a conflict between the mages and the templars, and Varric pointed out that the "entire world" was on the "brink of war." Mages rebelled from the Chantry. Templars rebelled to hunt down the mages. The two factions seem to be going to war over this.

maxernst wrote...

And they're not the only interested parties.  The other 99% of the population of Thedas has a stake in this as well, and will eventually be able to force some sort of arrangement, which may very well be something neither the mages or the Templars want.

I doubt that the people of Thedas want to be caught in the middle of a war between the templars and the mages, but I doubt see that dissuading either side. If that was the case, I doubt Cassandra would be trying to find Hawke in the vain hope that he could talk to the faction that respects him.

maxernst wrote...

esper wrote...

enough of them will be. 

And your expertise in mage genetics for this opinion is...?  Even if mages are 100x more likely to have mage children than non-mages, most mages will still be born to non-mages.  There just aren't that many mages to start with.

I believe esper is addressing that magic is said to run in families, which is mentioned by Isolde and Leandra.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 28 octobre 2011 - 05:59 .

[esper]

maxernst wrote...

esper wrote...

maxernst wrote...

esper wrote...

megski wrote...

esper wrote...

megski wrote...

What I wonder most about, is why the templar order breaks away from the chantry. Say a person wants to be a soldier, they do have choices. Either their kingdom's military or the templar order. No matter the reason I think most people do have a choice to be templars, excluding situations like Alistair who was just fell into it. Now, we know that there are sadistic people that join armies and militaries for all the wrong reasons, but lets just say that most templars join the order out of pure-hearted religious reasons. What would make a group of devout believers tear away from their convictions? Perhaps there is some horrible deep dark secret the chantry has, and once it gets out, mages and templars can unite together against a common enemy. If I hate you, but we both hate this other person MORE than we hate each other, why not join forces?

As I already say that happened in the blight. But once that enemy is defeated people forget that they were allied again in a decade or two or even less if we shall judge how well things went in Ferelden. If the underlying problem isn't solved they won't forget their hate and prejudices. 

I still think it's still possible, that people can movie on and learn to love each other....through hate?  

Eventually people begin to tire of fighting and hating, even mages and templars.  Maybe in a couple of decades a new generation of mages and templars would be born, and relationships could progress from there.  People that didn't know about all the prejudice and hate that their parents experienced or dished out.  But you could be right too, anything is possible.

I do think that people can move on. I just don't think it can happen in the dragon age. The wounds are too fresh. Mage children are going to learn about their hate from their parents. And no new generation of templars is born. From this point foreward people are going to joing the templars to hunt mages (since they are no longer part of the chantry).

I do however admit that this is a game.

One thing you have to remember is that the next generation of mages is mostly not the children of the current generation.  Some of them will even be the children of templars.

enough of them will be.

And your expertise in mage genetics for this opinion is...?  Even if mages are 100x more likely to have mage children than non-mages, most mages will still be born to non-mages.  There just aren't that many mages to start with.

If just 50 procent of the mages born of non-mages will be persecuted and hunted or just generally live in fear for templars I am pretty sure that they are going to join the 'bandwagon' and hate templars will overpower those of the more moderate mages., and I personally think that it is more than 50 % of mages born of non-mages are going to have a bad templar experience before they grow up. 

And as Lobvist said, magic also run in families. Enough that those mages born of mages will be a small army in their own. 

Modifié par esper, 28 octobre 2011 - 06:01 .

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

If people can't come to a hypothetical agreement, how likely is it that people living in the real world would be able to come to a compromise when their goals are complete opposites of the other?

Hypothetical arguments don't involve murdering people en masse. Which tends to be important aspect of coming to compromises/agreements.

[Lazy Jer]

Keep in mind that the people here in the forums aren't a good measure for they hypothetical mages and templars in question.  Since we don't actually have to live in Thedas and deal with the realities of the conflict, it's easier for use to take a hardline stance.

An actual templars seeing actual friends die fighting actual mages and vice versa might be much more willing to negotiate.

[TheWasian]

Um so let's just ignore the fact that Flemeth seems to be moving everyone like pawns? I'm pretty sure Flemeth has a lot to do with how the story fleshed out. I think in DA 3 more will be revealed. DA 2 was kind of vague in the overall storyline

[Lazy Jer]

TheWasian wrote...

Um so let's just ignore the fact that Flemeth seems to be moving everyone like pawns? I'm pretty sure Flemeth has a lot to do with how the story fleshed out. I think in DA 3 more will be revealed. DA 2 was kind of vague in the overall storyline

I wouldn't say that we're ignoring her so much as her plans, whatever they may be, aren't well defined enough to really factor into the discussion.  Since we don't know what she's trying to do or why, we can't really say how it's going to effect anyone's willingness to compromise.

[Big I]

While it's impossible to say what will be done to end the war, it's relatively easy to map out the broad ways it could end.


1) Templars win and return to the status quo, or institute a compulsory execution/tranquility policy for mages.

2) Mages win and allow templars to operate with less authority and more mage oversight, or templars are abolished and replaced with a new type of "mage police".

3) Mages win and abolish the Circle

4) Neither side wins but puts the conflict on hold in order to face a larger external threat (Flemeth/Corypheus/Qunari etc)


The interesting thing to think about is if there is a Circle or Templar Order after the war whether either one will reaffiliate with the Chantry.

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If people can't come to a hypothetical agreement, how likely is it that people living in the real world would be able to come to a compromise when their goals are complete opposites of the other?

Hypothetical arguments don't involve murdering people en masse. Which tends to be important aspect of coming to compromises/agreements.

Hypothetical arguments illustrate that there is a difference of opinion, which can be seen with the characters in the narrative, and the issues with two sides exists all across Thedas. And when both sides have conflicting goals, it can be why compromises never happen, especially when their goals are the exact opposite of one another. The mages who want freedom from the templars and the Chantry, and the templars who want to control the mages - neither of these goals are compatiable with one another. I'm certain you're familiar with the conflicts that transpire historically, and even now in the real world, because there are two sides that can't reach a compromise, despite all the real bloodshed that transpires from the conflict.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think what they mean is that It costs people arguing on the internet nothing to reject a compromise. If mages and templars are fighting a costly war across all Thedas, they might not be in the same position.

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think what they mean is that It costs people arguing on the internet nothing to reject a compromise. If mages and templars are fighting a costly war all across Thedas, they might not be in the same position.

One side driven by their religious conviction, and another side fighting for freedom from a system they have lived under for nearly a millennia. I would imagine that both sides are very convinced they are correct, and we see from the centuries of conflict between the Qunari and the Imperium that bloodshed can last a very long time in Thedas.

As for pointing out that people disagree on the internet about the Chantry controlled Circles and the issue of mage autonomy, I would imagine having to actually live in a world where their freedom or way of life was on the line would give them greater conviction. Add in the possible religious conviction of some templars on the issue of mages (as the Revered Mother chastises Loghain about at the Landsmeet, saying it's an "offense against the Maker" to prevent a templar from carrying out his duties in apprehending a mage) and I honestly don't see how a compromise would be reached. Do you tell the templars that they are wrong about a thousand years of religious teaching? Do you tell the mages to return to the way things were under the Chantry controlled Circles of Magi?

[tmp7704]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think what they mean is that It costs people arguing on the internet nothing to reject a compromise. If mages and templars are fighting a costly war across all Thedas, they might not be in the same position.

Yes, exactly.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why do you even bother telling Lob that he may be wrong in his assesment?

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why do you even bother telling Lob that he may be wrong in his assesment?

Especially when he's not.  The Templars clearly believe they do what they do from Divine Right and Divine Sanction no matter what the rest of the Chantry may think.  Remember that the Templars were once Inquisitors and they were NOT nice people and I see the Templars reverting to that position.

If a group believes they act in the name of [insert Diety here] then a negotiated peaceful resolution is essentially impossible.

-Polaris