527 réponses à ce sujet

[alperez]

Some people view the VS's actions on Horizon as a betrayal of Shepard, personally i believe while the action taken is a betrayal there are valid reasons why this takes place and once those reasons are understood the position the Vs takes is painted in a completely different light.

Horizon is a unique situation with complicated circumstances, it cannot occur again so the actions the VS takes on Horizon cannot be duplicated imo, some people however feel that because of the actions taken the VS has proved themselves to be untrustworthy and it requires the VS to re-prove themselves to Shepard.

Modifié par alperez, 27 octobre 2011 - 08:12 .

[CrutchCricket]

Hmm, might want to can the "in response to..." part, OP. Just saying it's not very subtle.

[Skullheart]

I don't trust in the VS because s/he was paralized a few feets away from Lilith and the collectors didn't take her/him. S/He could have been indoctrinated (a sleeper agent) and may betray us in ME3.

Modifié par Skullheart, 27 octobre 2011 - 08:06 .

[Quole]

Skullheart wrote...

I don't trust in the VS because s/he was paralized a few feets away from Lilith and the collectors didn't take her/him. S/He could have been indoctrinated (a sleeper agent) and may betray us in ME3.

It would have been nice if that was explained in some way.

[alperez]

CrutchCricket

Your right so i've rephrased my OP.

[General User]

Horizon was so off-putting for me (Kaidan's version more than Ash's) that I'm not I trust sure either VS.

I keep coming back to this: what was the VS's real mission on Horizon?  Was it simply to get the AA towers operational?  Or was it to investigate the colony attacks (for which Cerberus was, admittedly, a suspect)?  I have to think it was far, FAR, FAR more the latter.

So when Shepard shows up and offers everything their mission is asking for and then some all on a silver platter, and the VS either can't look past their own emotions or is unwilling to take the risk and go with Shep., I have to think that makes both of them highly suspect at the very least.

Sure they had reasons for acting the way they did and making the decisons they made.  I'm not questioning their loyalty or anything along those lines.  I'm questioning their ability to operate at that level.

The fact (as far as I can see anyway) is that, when it came down to making a call, both Kaidan and Ash made the wrong one.

Modifié par General User, 27 octobre 2011 - 08:19 .

[alperez]

Skullheart wrote...

I don't trust in the VS because s/he was paralized a few feets away from Lilith and the collectors didn't take her/him. S/He could have been indoctrinated (a sleeper agent) and may betray us in ME3.

I don't buy the sleeper agent scenario simply because it doesn't make sense, if they were a sleeper agent for the reapers would it not make more sense not to basically blow Shepard off with the chances of never seeing him/her again?

Surely the best place for a sleeper agent would have been right there alongside Shepard during the SM, knife in hand ready to plunge it in Shepard's back rather than wait until ME3, afterall if Shepard had failed during the SM what was the point of the sleeper agent then?

But your right regarding the face they weren't taken, some say its just a simple plot hole ala everyone suddenly deciding to go on the shuttle.

[Xilizhra]

Well, Ashley didn't actually do anything to hurt me... it's unfortunate she didn't come with me, but I'm willing to give her another chance.

[shepskisaac]

Skullheart wrote...

I don't trust in the VS because s/he was paralized a few feets away from Lilith and the collectors didn't take her/him. S/He could have been indoctrinated (a sleeper agent) and may betray us in ME3.

Yeah, they didn't take VS as they didn't take 2/3 of the colonists.

[alperez]

General.

I get what your saying regarding their abilty to operate and they do indeed make the wrong call.

However the situation and the circumstances they're in are what causes them to do so imo, i've continually said elsewhere that they are emotionally compromised by Shepard's return and his alliance with cerberus.

I've posted reasons for this and would be happy to do so again, however a simple analogy may clarify it better.

If someone you knew died, you'd be upset, however depending on the relationship you had with that person the upset could be mild or extreme, for example the loss of a loved one would affect you more than the loss of an aquaintance.

So one particular situation causes you to be emotionally compromised, yet a similar situation with slightly different circumstances does not.

Horizon is a unique situation, without the elments that make it so, events may have played out much differently and the VS may have dealt with it much better, unfortunately its precisely those elements that create the problem.

[Siansonea]

I wonder what will happen when the VS finds out that the whole reason the Collectors were on Horizon in the first place was because of the Illusive Man—Shepard's employer. "A calculated risk", "acceptable losses", spouts the Illusive Man in that callous way of his. I'm sure Lilith's family doesn't find the loss all that "acceptable", but hey, Cerberus is our ally, right? Oh wait, they're the enemy again...

Modifié par Siansonea II, 27 octobre 2011 - 08:32 .

[shepskisaac]

Siansonea II wrote...

I wonder what will happen when the VS finds out that the whole reason the Collectors were on Horizon in the first place was because of the Illusive Man—Shepard's employer. "A calculated risk", "acceptable losses", spouts the Illusive Man in that callous way of his. I'm sure Lilith's family doesn't find the loss all that "acceptable", but hey, Cerberus is our ally, right? Oh wait, they're the enemy again...

The bigger sh*tstorm will still happen once VS learns the Alliance works with Cerberus.

[General User]

Siansonea II wrote...

I wonder what will happen when the VS finds out that the whole reason the Collectors were on Horizon in the first place was because of the Illusive Man—Shepard's employer. "A calculated risk", "acceptable losses", spouts the Illusive Man in that callous way of his. I'm sure Lilith's family doesn't find the loss all that "acceptable", but hey, Cerberus is our ally, right? Oh wait, they're the enemy again...

Would you have blunted the Collector attacks in different way?  If not by laying a trap, then how?  If not at Horizon, then where?

[Jenova65]

I trust them more than all the others tbh.. since they have integrity and the b*lls to stand up to Shepard and say ''Hey, remember Cerberus ~ terrorists and whatnot''?
And everyone else drops everything and joins... Sorry but if the tables were turned and we were Alliance and VS was Cerberus we'd be all ''Oooh, the backstabbing b*stards''
Fact of the matter is this.. The writing was a **** up for Horizon... AND VS just can't do right for doing wrong round these parts...

[CroGamer002]

Why wouldn't I trust VS do to Shepard being a giant derp on Horizon?

[CrazyRah]

Oh i trust them, i still dislike the whole Horizon stuff but they did after all stand up against Shepard and it's the writing that sucked so much there. Kaidan and Ashley are welcome aboard the Normandy SR-2 whenever they want for me

[Iakus]

alperez wrote...

Some people view the VS's actions on Horizon as a betrayal of Shepard, personally i believe while the action taken is a betrayal there are valid reasons why this takes place and once those reasons are understood the position the Vs takes is painted in a completely different light.

Horizon is a unique situation with complicated circumstances, it cannot occur again so the actions the VS takes on Horizon cannot be duplicated imo, some people however feel that because of the actions taken the VS has proved themselves to be untrustworthy and it requires the VS to re-prove themselves to Shepard.

I think that the VS had reason to be suspicious.  However, the scene on Horizon dialed it the confrontation up to 11 for no good reason beyond generating artificial conflict between the VS and Shepard.

As to the trust issue for ME3, there's hope.  If you talk to Anderson post-Horizon, he tells you the VS confirmed Shep's story about the Collectors being responsible for the missing colonies.  So at some point, Bioware "released control" and they started acting normally again.

There's no getting around the cofrontation was...bad.  Ultimately whether Shepard can trust the VS again is going to come down to how the confrontation can be justified in ME3.  Did TIM plant evidence implicating Shepard's participation in Cerberus projects?  Was there something else going on in the VS's life that set them on edge?   And if the reason is enought to satisfy the player

I'd like to think that how much the VS ends up trusting Shepard would be at least in part based on Shepard's actions in ME2.  With Shepard in custody and teh Normandy in teh Alliance's possession, the truth of Shepard's activities will likely become known to the Alliance and the Council.  As a Spectre, the VS may have access to those records (they may even be part fo the investigation)  If it comes out that Shepard never betrayed the Alliance, continued to act in its best interest (not just humanity's) and never really trusted Cerberus, that may say something.  IF Shepard buys into TIM's speeches and was looking to sign up with them permanently, well, that might not go over so well 

But then, it's not like anything you said or did to the VS mattered much in ME2, so that hope may be in vain 

[Barquiel]

I'm cautious.

What if we have to work with cerberus again...or some batarians...or the geth...or any other enemy of the alliance?


"I'm an Alliance soldier, it's in my blood! Good luck stopping the reapers..."

[General User]

alperez wrote...

General.

I get what your saying regarding their abilty to operate and they do indeed make the wrong call.

However the situation and the circumstances they're in are what causes them to do so imo, i've continually said elsewhere that they are emotionally compromised by Shepard's return and his alliance with cerberus.

I've posted reasons for this and would be happy to do so again, however a simple analogy may clarify it better.

If someone you knew died, you'd be upset, however depending on the relationship you had with that person the upset could be mild or extreme, for example the loss of a loved one would affect you more than the loss of an aquaintance.

So one particular situation causes you to be emotionally compromised, yet a similar situation with slightly different circumstances does not.

Horizon is a unique situation, without the elments that make it so, events may have played out much differently and the VS may have dealt with it much better, unfortunately its precisely those elements that create the problem.

Although I'd like to think so, honesty compel me to admit I might have had a similar reaction and made similar decisions were I in the VS's shoes.  But that doesn't change what happened.

This wasn't Eden Prime, where a series of unforeseeable conditions (in that case a geth army lead by a rogue Spectre) caused a mission to fail.  The VS's mission got cut off at the knees specifically because of a decision they made despite numerous warnings.

So as understandable as their decision was, it still has consequences, it raises issue that need to be addressed.  As Shepard, I've been through enough with the VS's that I'd be willing to accept a simple apology/admission of error and move on. 

Modifié par General User, 27 octobre 2011 - 08:51 .

[AVPen]

Siansonea II wrote...

I wonder what will happen when the VS finds out that the whole reason the Collectors were on Horizon in the first place was because of the Illusive Man—Shepard's employer. "A calculated risk", "acceptable losses", spouts the Illusive Man in that callous way of his. I'm sure Lilith's family doesn't find the loss all that "acceptable", but hey, Cerberus is our ally, right? Oh wait, they're the enemy again...

Yeah, just like how the Collectors chose to attack the Horizon colony completely because TIM told them to....

Oh, wait, no, that's right....

All those innocent people were taken and killed from Horizon because the Collectors were specifically targetting the VS himself/herself, regardless of whatever colony he/she was sent to....

Whoops.  <_<

Modifié par AVPen, 27 octobre 2011 - 08:51 .

[Saaziel]

Its always possible that Cerberus was , in fact , behind some of the attacks on human colonies.

If T.I.M. really wanted to build himself a Reaper and had at hand the information that he'd need some bodies to throw in the blender. He would have had to stock pile some prior to Shep's involvement.

I think the Horizon conversation is between two people , on the same subject , but not on the same page.

[DoNotIngest]

I'll trust Kaidan to guard my Prothean Relic in my quarters while I'm out with my posse reapin' Reapers.


...


Why do I get the feeling I'll come back to a giant Prothean Relic crushing my couch with a red stain under it?

[scampermax]

Looking at it from the VS's point of view what reason do they have to trust Shepard on Horizon? Two years earlier they were fighting against Cerberus operations and then the VS watched Shepard die. Now, two years later, Shepard is back - alive - and working with Cerberus. I don't blame the VS for feeling betrayed.

It's unfortunate that Shepard wasn't able to convince the VS to come with her, but realistically the VS couldn't just desert the Alliance either. My Shepards will have no problems trusting the VS in ME3.

Modifié par scampermax, 27 octobre 2011 - 08:58 .

[alperez]

General User wrote...

So as understandable as their decision was, it still has consequences, it raises issue that need to be addressed.  As Shepard, I've been through enough with the VS's that I'd be willing to accept a simple apology/admission of error and move on. 

Don't get me wrong, there are issues that need to be addressed and there could be some consequences to the actions themselves.

But like you i can understand the decision and i have my own interpretation for why it was made, so a simple apology/admission of error is reasonable in my book, some people however seem to want nothing more than a total capitulation from the VS, an almost throwing themselves at the feet of the almighty Shepard and begging for forgiveness and this is the attitude i take issue with.

[alperez]

IsaacShep wrote...

The bigger sh*tstorm will still happen once VS learns the Alliance works with Cerberus.

You raise an excellent point here, once that cat is out of the proverbial then the fit will really hit the shan.