527 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

laecraft wrote...

CptData wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Some people literally cannot stand when their companions confront them, or have doubts, or question their leadership.

These characters are usually - but not always - my favorites. In every case though, I like that they have an independent thought process. Disagreement is not a problem for me as such, and while not every poster who demands utter devotion from their companions due to the Protagonist's Awesome Ego strikes me as silly... most do.

If you're the leader of a group you usually need someone that has a different opinion on a point and keeps you grounded. That applies in ME for Ashley (more) and Kaidan (less) and for Jacob in ME2. I guess ppl hate getting lectured if they're in charge - but a good leader needs different pov to pick the right decision.

That applies for Ashley (ME1) and Kaidan (ME1). You're not a leader or anything for VS in ME2. VS is not a part of your team. VS wants nothing to do with you post-Horizon. Therefore, that renders their opinion on my mission...invalid.

You see, they don't know anything about my mission. And they didn't bother to ask. Clearly they don't want to know. Why ask for input from someone who's so woefully uninformed and out of the loop of the constantly changing battle situation? They don't know anything, and hence they can't say anything useful.

Besides, I don't see VS offering any useful or valuable opinion to Shepard, except for accusations. Unless you consider their stance "never work with Cerberus" an opinion. Is it useful?

If we apply it to the future, then Shepard's not supposed to do anything, and is supposed to just sit and watch the Reapers wipe out humanity and then the galaxy. Let's see...no, I don't think it's a good course of action. Thank you for your input, VS.

But let's apply it to the past. Suppose Shepard had no contact with Cerberus. Shepard would still be dead, Horizon would've been abducted, and VS would be liquified. Let's see...

No, I don't think so. I'm only going to use the strategies whose formulators lived. Thank you, VS, any other useful advice from your independent thought process?

Questioning my leadership abilities, my choices, my perceptions, and my allegiances, after all of that led to saving half the colony and saving VS, and if not for Shepard and Cerberus, VS wouldn't even have a mouth to badmouth Shepard with....

On the second thought, I think I'll pass. If I want a reliable independent advice from a person I can trust, I'll ask Mordin.

This so x2

Especially the bolded.

[Yezdigerd]

V-rex wrote...
I LIKE Garrus and Tali, more Garrus though, and I don't see why I can't praise them for coming with me while at the same time being forgiving of Ashley for her reaction on Horizon?
Why does it have to be muturally exclusive like this? Why can't I have it both ways?

Because it makes no sense? Tali express more hate for Cerberus then the VS do, yet she is Shepard's friend and you don't leave your friends to the mercy of terrorists.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 28 octobre 2011 - 02:17 .

[raziel1980]

Aurora313 wrote...

Nah - Save Udina for the dartboard.... or the firing range... or if you don't have a Javelin torpedo to spare... lol

Him AND the turian counsel member especially need to put up on those boards...

* is really hoping for an option to eject those 2 imparticular out of the airlock.*

On this whole VS trust debate...I need to be able to sit Ash ( since she is the one who survives in all of my playthroughs) and have a talk with her about that whole horizon fiasco( my canon shep WAS dating her til that scene then their relationship ended( as how I RPed it) and he moved on with Miranda) and get the gist of that entire situation because obviously both sides were in the wrong. Ash not having enough information at hand  as to what was really going on with the collectors. Shepard...the cerberus( whom I VEHEMENTLY HATE and my shepard began to again after the CS mission). I'm going to withhold judgement of the VS until and if we get that kinda scene as to the debate of whether or not I trust them. This is just my point of view and how I see things.

[Ryzaki]

jreezy wrote...

Quole wrote...

Its actually kind of sad that Shepard is the galaxy`s best hope against the reapers.

The galaxy is screwed.

Nah the galaxy will be fine.

As long as there's not a dance off.

[V-rex]

Yezdigerd wrote...

snip

I'm grateful for Tali joining up, however just because I'm grateful Tali joined up doesn't mean I hold a bitter grudge against Ashley for not joining up. Maybe it wasn't right for Ashley to react the way she did but I'm prepared to hear her out and forgive her.
Because, simply, I like both characters.
It makes sense to me.

EDIT: And please do not argue with me about this, I'm not going to engage in this debate any further then just:
I like both characters, deal with it.

Modifié par V-rex, 28 octobre 2011 - 02:42 .

[Yezdigerd]

A couple of points
The notion that it would be mindboggeling forShepard joining Cerburus depends a lot on how you played Shepard in the first game. A rensheps, contempt for authority and rules, finding aliens unthrustworthy scum, supporting human supremacy, a penchant for excessive force, anything to get the job down mindset, sounds just pretty much the perfect Cerberus trooper to me.

I don't think the Alliance and Cerberus are that far apart. Many seems to share Jacob's view that Cerberus basically is alliance with the gloves off and while Cerberus are extremists they have the same goals. the advancement of humanity. Admiral Hackett seems to be an advocate for this given how casually he embark on terrorist ships and entrust deep cover mission to them.
Jacob, Joker, Chakwas, Gabby, Ken, etc doesn't seem to find signing on to a Cerberus vessel as a one way trip to a life as hunted fugitives either.

[Ravensword]

Ryzaki wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Quole wrote...

Its actually kind of sad that Shepard is the galaxy`s best hope against the reapers.

The galaxy is screwed.

Nah the galaxy will be fine.

As long as there's not a dance off.

Too late.

[Siansonea]

Yezdigerd wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

*first wave of Cerberus enemies attacks Shepard and the VS in ME3*

"You were saying, Shepard?"

For someone who would be reapergoo if Cerberus hadn't saved you and the human colonies when the alliance failed them, you sure enjoy embarrasing yourself.

Why would I be Reapergoo? I'm not Shepard, you know. I'm a person who plays Shepard. There's a difference. But a lot you kids don't seem to realize that. 

Modifié par Siansonea II, 28 octobre 2011 - 03:12 .

[Siansonea]

Yezdigerd wrote...

V-rex wrote...
I LIKE Garrus and Tali, more Garrus though, and I don't see why I can't praise them for coming with me while at the same time being forgiving of Ashley for her reaction on Horizon?
Why does it have to be muturally exclusive like this? Why can't I have it both ways?

Because it makes no sense? Tali express more hate for Cerberus then the VS do, yet she is Shepard's friend and you don't leave your friends to the mercy of terrorists.

Didn't look like Shepard was at anyone's "mercy" to me. Looks like she had signed up and bought the T-shirt. So when your "friend" (or former commander who you barely spoke to, depending) joins a group of TERRORISTS, and acts like they have terminal derp, I think it's wisest to just walk away. Really, does Shepard not realize that "I could use you on my team, Ashlan, it'd be like old times" is a) asking the VS to commit treason and ASKING THE VS TO COMMIT TREASON? Shepard is so full of derp in that scene she has to have a control chip. Either that, or Shepard has always been a few bricks shy of a load.

[Ryzaki]

Your Shepard maybe pretty derp.

Mine wouldn't ask the VS to join him/her. He's cool with the people he has and hey if he has to roll around in filth to save the galaxy then so be it. A small sacrifice to save millions of lives.

Still planning on shooting TIM in the face though. SS Shepard don't play Cerberus' super soldier BS.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 octobre 2011 - 03:28 .

[Siansonea]

V-rex wrote...

Yezdigerd wrote...

snip

I'm grateful for Tali joining up, however just because I'm grateful Tali joined up doesn't mean I hold a bitter grudge against Ashley for not joining up. Maybe it wasn't right for Ashley to react the way she did but I'm prepared to hear her out and forgive her.
Because, simply, I like both characters.
It makes sense to me.

EDIT: And please do not argue with me about this, I'm not going to engage in this debate any further then just:
I like both characters, deal with it.

How dare you have a reasonable viewpoint! Who do you think you are?! 

I also don't think it should be about Tali and Garrus vs. the VS. Tali and Garrus weren't Alliance Marines. Granted, Tali has her own beef with Cerberus, but the quarians' troubles with Cerberus are limited to a single incident, whereas the Alliance has been attacked by Cerberus on many occasions and lost quite a few soldiers, including an admiral. It is a much bigger deal for an Alliance Marine to join Cerberus than it is for any non-human. And Tali doesn't even join Cerberus right away, only after she's learned a lot more about the situation. And by the time she does join Shepard, she has every reason to tolerate Cerberus. With the VS, they literally have a few seconds to assimilate the fact that Shepard is alive, with Cerberus, that the Collectors are behind the missing colonies, and that Shepard is alive and with Cerberus. Where has Shepard been for two years? Obviously the reports of her death were wrong. What's this she's saying about Cerberus "rebuilding" her? Huh? That doesn't even make sense. And she's defending Cerberus?! Is this the same Shepard who knelt over the corpse of Admiral Kahoku, poisoned by Cerberus doctors? The same Shepard who listened to Corporal Toombs' anguished account of what Cerberus scientists did to him? Did the VS ever know Shepard at all? Yeah, I'd give Shepard the benefit of the doubt to some extent, but I wouldn't throw my career away to tag along with someone who has gone so far beyond what I thought they'd be capable of. Not after a five minute conversation, anyway.

[Siansonea]

Ryzaki wrote...

Your Shepard maybe pretty derp.

Mine wouldn't ask the VS to join him/her. He's cool with the people he has and hey if he has to roll around in filth to save the galaxy then so be it. A small sacrifice to save millions of lives.

Still planning on shooting TIM in the face though. SS Shepard don't play Cerberus' super soldier BS.

I have at least one Shepard who plans to shoot TIM in the face too, my Sole Survivor Sentinel. My Infiltrator, for all that he is more Renegade than my Sentinel, just isn't that personally invested in Cerberus. My Soldier is a psychotic b¡tch, she might kill TIM or she might not, it depends on her whim. But my Vanguard and Engineer will try to arrest him if they can. I don't really know what my Adept will do, she's kind of a wild card. 

Most of my Shepard's are fine with having to get their hands dirty if they have to. But some of them also respect Kaidan's loyalty to the Alliance and unwillingness to join Cerberus (all my Paragon-ish Shepards saved Kaidan on Virmire). Really, the only Shepard I have who is angry with the VS is my Soldier, she's a "how dare anyone question ME!" type. My Infiltrator just thinks Ashley needs to get laid. 

[Ryzaki]

Siansonea II wrote...

I have at least one Shepard who plans to shoot TIM in the face too, my Sole Survivor Sentinel. My Infiltrator, for all that he is more Renegade than my Sentinel, just isn't that personally invested in Cerberus. My Soldier is a psychotic b¡tch, she might kill TIM or she might not, it depends on her whim. But my Vanguard and Engineer will try to arrest him if they can. I don't really know what my Adept will do, she's kind of a wild card. 

Most of my Shepard's are fine with having to get their hands dirty if they have to. But some of them also respect Kaidan's loyalty to the Alliance and unwillingness to join Cerberus (all my Paragon-ish Shepards saved Kaidan on Virmire). Really, the only Shepard I have who is angry with the VS is my Soldier, she's a "how dare anyone question ME!" type. My Infiltrator just thinks Ashley needs to get laid. 

heh majority of my sheps weren't overly fond of the VS in the first place (ash forced herself on their ship and ended up screwing up their mission even more then Saren did) while Kaidan was just bland to talk to. So horizon was pretty much a giant "  " moment.

That said they do feel that his loyalty is to the alliance first and foremost which is exactly why they don't want the VS on their ship come ME3. What if they have to sacrifice alliance power points to stop the Reapers? Will the VS get in their way? My sheps don't want to have to worry about that.

That said my Sheps do tend to have the same friends. ...save my renedouche who hates everybody.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 octobre 2011 - 03:47 .

[Alamar2078]

I wish Horizon had better RP options in terms of how Shep responds to the VS.

On the other hand this does give us a golden opportunity to role play through each individual Shep's reactions to what did or didn't happen on Horizon.

[Yezdigerd]

Siansonea II wrote...

Yezdigerd wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

*first wave of Cerberus enemies attacks Shepard and the VS in ME3*

"You were saying, Shepard?"

For someone who would be reapergoo if Cerberus hadn't saved you and the human colonies when the alliance failed them, you sure enjoy embarrasing yourself.

Why would I be Reapergoo? I'm not Shepard, you know. I'm a person who plays Shepard. There's a difference. But a lot you kids don't seem to realize that. 

That was what my shepard would like to say to a VS pulling such a lame "I told you so". In the context I thought it would be pretty obvious.

[Yezdigerd]

Siansonea II wrote...

Didn't look like Shepard was at anyone's "mercy" to me. Looks like she had signed up and bought the T-shirt.

According to the VS an alliance with Cerberus would be something Shepard would regret. If a friend of yours put his or her trust in the people you believe will turn on him/her, you shrug your shoulders and walk away?

Really, does Shepard not realize that "I could use you on my team, Ashlan, it'd be like old times" is a) asking the VS to commit treason and ASKING THE VS TO COMMIT TREASON? Shepard is so full of derp in that scene she has to have a control chip.

Yes it's an obvious possibility that Shepard has a controlship implanted at that time, not that the VS bother to find out. If you can rebuild a consciousness cell for cell, brainwashing should be childs play. But since the VS has phycic powers Shepard is with 100% certainty a willing agent in Cerberus perfidy.
Imagining it, Shepard is TIM's puppet forced to serve Cerberus evil ends against his will, desperate for someone to help. Seeing the VS walk away after being branded a traitor, silently screaming in despair.

As for treason, the VS knows the reapers are real, something their precious alliance offically denies. Cerberus and Shepard saves the VS and the colony on Horizon and are actually researching and preparing for a conflict with the reapers and collectors. The VS is sent out alone with apparently no useful intel or resources to protect Horizon and needs to be rescued by the terrorists. Really who has betrayed who?

Also Shepard's Derpness on Horizon is very much a paragon affliction, the neutral responses are very reasonable.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 28 octobre 2011 - 07:18 .

[ADLegend21]

Yezdigerd wrote...

V-rex wrote...
I LIKE Garrus and Tali, more Garrus though, and I don't see why I can't praise them for coming with me while at the same time being forgiving of Ashley for her reaction on Horizon?
Why does it have to be muturally exclusive like this? Why can't I have it both ways?

Because it makes no sense? Tali express more hate for Cerberus then the VS do, yet she is Shepard's friend and you don't leave your friends to the mercy of terrorists.

so it doesn't make sense that, as a current Alliance soldier the VS cannot willingly go work for a human terrorist organization? I think you might be wrong abot that, just sayin'

[Iakus]

ADLegend21 wrote...

so it doesn't make sense that, as a current Alliance soldier the VS cannot willingly go work for a human terrorist organization? I think you might be wrong abot that, just sayin'

For myself, that's not the problem.  The problem comes from the VS assuming Shepardis betraying  the Alliance.

Especially given, you know, the lockdown incident.  

Which is why I really think that the conversation should have focused more on Shepard possibly being used by TIM, or We should have been shown more reason fro why the VS should react so negatively,  It's totally offputting given the reactions from Anderson and Tali.  Two others who had as much or as little reason to trust Shepard, but still remained cordial at least.

Bioware seriously did not think this scene through.

[Yezdigerd]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Yezdigerd wrote...

V-rex wrote...
I LIKE Garrus and Tali, more Garrus though, and I don't see why I can't praise them for coming with me while at the same time being forgiving of Ashley for her reaction on Horizon?
Why does it have to be muturally exclusive like this? Why can't I have it both ways?

Because it makes no sense? Tali express more hate for Cerberus then the VS do, yet she is Shepard's friend and you don't leave your friends to the mercy of terrorists.

so it doesn't make sense that, as a current Alliance soldier the VS cannot willingly go work for a human terrorist organization? I think you might be wrong abot that, just sayin'

If a friend of mine is hanging out with people who I believe will harm or kill him, I would try my best to help him or her.
That is what Tali does.The VS are just "you made your own bed, if you get a knife in your back the only thing you will get for me is a I told you so" One of these people are a friend, the other one doesn't give a damn.

As for "working for the terrorists", Tali does that as well even though she is in active service. Yet she chose to follow her conscience. The reaper threat is real and Shepard needs her help.

[ADLegend21]

Yezdigerd wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Yezdigerd wrote...

V-rex wrote...
I LIKE Garrus and Tali, more Garrus though, and I don't see why I can't praise them for coming with me while at the same time being forgiving of Ashley for her reaction on Horizon?
Why does it have to be muturally exclusive like this? Why can't I have it both ways?

Because it makes no sense? Tali express more hate for Cerberus then the VS do, yet she is Shepard's friend and you don't leave your friends to the mercy of terrorists.

so it doesn't make sense that, as a current Alliance soldier the VS cannot willingly go work for a human terrorist organization? I think you might be wrong abot that, just sayin'

If a friend of mine is hanging out with people who I believe will harm or kill him, I would try my best to help him or her.
That is what Tali does.The VS are just "you made your own bed, if you get a knife in your back the only thing you will get for me is a I told you so" One of these people are a friend, the other one doesn't give a damn.

As for "working for the terrorists", Tali does that as well even though she is in active service. Yet she chose to follow her conscience. The reaper threat is real and Shepard needs her help.

Shepard's not a child. the VS can't just say "come along [insert Shep's first name] let's go back home and away from these strangers. Shepard is also one of the most lethal organics in the galaxy so they trust Shepard to get the hell out of there when the time comes. Also Tali claims she's working wit Shepard, not Cebrerus even though wehn you go to the fleet for her missino "your ship is flagged as cebrerus Tali'Zorah" which isn't a good thing seeing as she's already on trial for treason in the first place. (not to mention yuo cna bring Legion which would actually mke her guiltiy of bringing active geth the the fleet ) the VS is in no way saying what you put in their mouths, They wish Shepard luck since they're obviously not leaving the Normandy or Cerberus and they're not gonna waste their breath trying to convince her so they just leave to report back to the Alliance (or council if they're already Spectres) Actually Tali chose to stay with the fleet on Freedoms progress, but she got sickof it when the geth ambuhse dher team and they all died except for Reegar and Shepard showed up to recruit her. She also has an admiral for a father so she could go "daddy please!" and he'd grant her permission (as he does in the letter he sends after she's recruited.)

[Mr. Brainheart]

Yezdigerd wrote...


If a friend of mine is hanging out with people who I believe will harm or kill him, I would try my best to help him or her.
That is what Tali does.The VS are just "you made your own bed, if you get a knife in your back the only thing you will get for me is a I told you so" One of these people are a friend, the other one doesn't give a damn.

As for "working for the terrorists", Tali does that as well even though she is in active service. Yet she chose to follow her conscience. The reaper threat is real and Shepard needs her help.

Who's to say the VS isn't trying to fight the Reaper threat? What if they wanted to become a  Spectre so that they have the means to fight the Reapers more independently? They might have been the ones who actually tried to continue the fight against the Reapers, in the way Shepard did. You're assuming they don't want to help, but it's been two years since Shepard death and since they're Spectres in ME3, they might have been on evaluation missions during the time. Who knows? You really can't say they didn't want to help, we don't know.

[Mr.Pink]

I still trust the VS.

[ladyvader]

I'm not sure if it a complete matter of trust with my Shepard(s). My canon femShep hopes her friendship with Kaidan will continue. If not, it will get dealt with quickly. She has no time for games from anyone on the Normandy. She is tired of the crap she has been going through the past few years and wants to focus on the task at hand. Defeating the Reapers. If that takes airlocking Kaidan, she will.

Angry, single femShep already knows her friendship with Kaidan ended the moment the word 'traitor' escaped his lips. She only worked with Cerberus long enough to steal their ship and kill all the personal that was Cerberus on the Normandy. The only two people left on the Normandy besides 10 of 12 squadmates are Dr. Chakwas and Joker. Dr. Chakwas is alive because she was smart and told Shepard she was working for Shepard not Cerberus. If she had a choice, she might dump Joker and get a new pilot. She didn't like how he snapped on her after the Collectors told the crew.

[Iakus]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Shepard's not a child. the VS can't just say "come along [insert Shep's first name] let's go back home and away from these strangers. Shepard is also one of the most lethal organics in the galaxy so they trust Shepard to get the hell out of there when the time comes. Also Tali claims she's working wit Shepard, not Cebrerus even though wehn you go to the fleet for her missino "your ship is flagged as cebrerus Tali'Zorah" which isn't a good thing seeing as she's already on trial for treason in the first place. (not to mention yuo cna bring Legion which would actually mke her guiltiy of bringing active geth the the fleet ) the VS is in no way saying what you put in their mouths, They wish Shepard luck since they're obviously not leaving the Normandy or Cerberus and they're not gonna waste their breath trying to convince her so they just leave to report back to the Alliance (or council if they're already Spectres) Actually Tali chose to stay with the fleet on Freedoms progress, but she got sickof it when the geth ambuhse dher team and they all died except for Reegar and Shepard showed up to recruit her. She also has an admiral for a father so she could go "daddy please!" and he'd grant her permission (as he does in the letter he sends after she's recruited.)

Actually, if the VS had said something like "Come back with me, we'll get this straightened out" I would have found that detail far more realistic.  Of course, something would have to come along to prevent Shepard from taking up the offer, but still...

And part of the reason Tali refuses to join Shepard is because of her secret Haestrom mission.  Not so different from the VS's obligations to the Alliance (I'm sure they're probably already being groomed for Spectreship at this point)

[alperez]

Yezdigerd raises the points about Tali that a lot of people bring up, that is she supports Shepard despite his working with cerberus which is what a good friend should do.

Now while i personally agree with this, i also have a problem with it when its then compared or used to portray the VS's stance as less loyal or even as if the circumstances where the same.

Firstly the VS being a serving member of the alliance dropping everything and agreeing with or following Shepard would be desertion and borders on the treason that they accuse Shepard of.

Secondly, Tali unlike the VS doesn't meet idiot Shepard, she meets the same Shepard we all know, the one who's able to put across his case in a proper manner and convince people of his actions, the Shepard who turns up on Horizon forgets the simple act of conversation, he somehow loses all the charm or intimidate points he's always has and puts across his case as well as Conrad Verner would.

Basically on Horizon Shepard is like Austin Powers without his mojo, hell at any time i half expected Dr. Evil to pop out.

But the major difference between the position Tali takes and Ash does, is on freedoms progress Tali needs Shepard's help to complete her mission, she can and does see Shepard in action and can judge him based on his actual actions, even then though she still doesn't join right up, she leaves continues on her own mission until which once again she ends up needing Shepards help to complete.

It's only then after the time from the first encounter to the second has elapsed that Tali gives her full and complete support to Shepard, she's had time to evaluate that the VS doesn't get, on Horizon while Shepard was doing his thing the VS was incapaciatated, they did not get to see Shepard in action, only the results of that action.

They haven't seen Shepard stomping a mudhole in the collectors, do thier judgement on Shepard's motivations is still unknown because instead of seeing him in action, they only see him working with cerberus. They then have to make thier judgement call then and there, they don't get the option of time to evaluate, or have any clear indication that Shepard is doing the right thing other than his nonsensical you can trust me explanation.

So while Tali does the right thing and the VS does not, the reasons why this happens make the situations and the outcomes completely different.