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[Siansonea]

Yezdigerd wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Didn't look like Shepard was at anyone's "mercy" to me. Looks like she had signed up and bought the T-shirt.

According to the VS an alliance with Cerberus would be something Shepard would regret. If a friend of yours put his or her trust in the people you believe will turn on him/her, you shrug your shoulders and walk away?

Really, does Shepard not realize that "I could use you on my team, Ashlan, it'd be like old times" is a) asking the VS to commit treason and ASKING THE VS TO COMMIT TREASON? Shepard is so full of derp in that scene she has to have a control chip.

Yes it's an obvious possibility that Shepard has a controlship implanted at that time, not that the VS bother to find out. If you can rebuild a consciousness cell for cell, brainwashing should be childs play. But since the VS has phycic powers Shepard is with 100% certainty a willing agent in Cerberus perfidy.
Imagining it, Shepard is TIM's puppet forced to serve Cerberus evil ends against his will, desperate for someone to help. Seeing the VS walk away after being branded a traitor, silently screaming in despair.

As for treason, the VS knows the reapers are real, something their precious alliance offically denies. Cerberus and Shepard saves the VS and the colony on Horizon and are actually researching and preparing for a conflict with the reapers and collectors. The VS is sent out alone with apparently no useful intel or resources to protect Horizon and needs to be rescued by the terrorists. Really who has betrayed who?

Also Shepard's Derpness on Horizon is very much a paragon affliction, the neutral responses are very reasonable.

Pretzel logic isn't my go-to first assumption. Usually the simplest explanation is the accurate one. The simple explanation is that Shepard has joined Cerberus of her own accord, without coercion. And  if she does that, she's not the person I thought she was, and she's probably not the person the VS thought she was. I wouldn't think "hmmm, Shepard's acting weird, she must be suffering from mind control, I have to save her from herself!"  Of course, because we players are 3rd-party observers, we know that the situation is more complicated than that. But there's no reason the VS should make all sorts of weird assumptions when a very simple explanation satisfies all the circumstances.

And there's a difference between making a difficult, controversial choice after careful consideration and exhausting all other options, and making that same decision after a five minute conversation with a person you haven't seen in two years who is acting...different.

[Yezdigerd]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Yezdigerd wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Yezdigerd wrote...

V-rex wrote...
I LIKE Garrus and Tali, more Garrus though, and I don't see why I can't praise them for coming with me while at the same time being forgiving of Ashley for her reaction on Horizon?
Why does it have to be muturally exclusive like this? Why can't I have it both ways?

Because it makes no sense? Tali express more hate for Cerberus then the VS do, yet she is Shepard's friend and you don't leave your friends to the mercy of terrorists.

so it doesn't make sense that, as a current Alliance soldier the VS cannot willingly go work for a human terrorist organization? I think you might be wrong abot that, just sayin'

If a friend of mine is hanging out with people who I believe will harm or kill him, I would try my best to help him or her.
That is what Tali does.The VS are just "you made your own bed, if you get a knife in your back the only thing you will get for me is a I told you so" One of these people are a friend, the other one doesn't give a damn.

As for "working for the terrorists", Tali does that as well even though she is in active service. Yet she chose to follow her conscience. The reaper threat is real and Shepard needs her help.

Shepard's not a child. the VS can't just say "come along [insert Shep's first name] let's go back home and away from these strangers. Shepard is also one of the most lethal organics in the galaxy so they trust Shepard to get the hell out of there when the time comes. Also Tali claims she's working wit Shepard, not Cebrerus even though wehn you go to the fleet for her missino "your ship is flagged as cebrerus Tali'Zorah" which isn't a good thing seeing as she's already on trial for treason in the first place. (not to mention yuo cna bring Legion which would actually mke her guiltiy of bringing active geth the the fleet ) the VS is in no way saying what you put in their mouths, They wish Shepard luck since they're obviously not leaving the Normandy or Cerberus and they're not gonna waste their breath trying to convince her so they just leave to report back to the Alliance (or council if they're already Spectres) Actually Tali chose to stay with the fleet on Freedoms progress, but she got sickof it when the geth ambuhse dher team and they all died except for Reegar and Shepard showed up to recruit her. She also has an admiral for a father so she could go "daddy please!" and he'd grant her permission (as he does in the letter he sends after she's recruited.)

Well even Shepard might get killed fighting collectors and reapers, no matter how good s/he is especially if s/he is dependant on the untrustworhty Cerberus, "trusting" him to prevail against such odds are just silly. and by that reasoning I guess Tali is less "trusting" in Shepards ability then.
Of course Tali is working for Shepard, which is what the VS would say as well. In fact my point is that the VS could have ended up on the Normandy as a mirror image of Tali's script.
I don't trust Cerberus but I trust you commander" The alliance are run by idiots, even Cerberus does a better job of protecting humanity. I'm coming with you. "If they don't like it the admirals can go to hell" as Tali says.
And that is what the VS in ME did, here the script demands otherwise.

[alperez]

iakus wrote...

 The problem comes from the VS assuming Shepardis betraying  the Alliance.

Especially given, you know, the lockdown incident. 

The lockdown situation though is completely different, the VS was present during the circumstances and the decision making process which led up to the lockdown, they were working alongside Shepard and could judge his motivations that much easier, they also had their own interpretation of the same events Shepard had gone through to judge his choice on also.

Horizon is more a fait accompli, its presented as this is what has to be done, with no evidence of why and with the Vs coming from a completely different position.

It would be like if the VS had been assigned to Shepards ship just before the Lockdown with no idea of what the hell had happened previously, Shepard deciding to steal the normandy and expecting the VS to just accept it, Shepard would be asking them to commit an act of treason against the people they serve with no relevant facts or info to support his actions, which is pretty much how Horizon comes across from their perspective.

[Iakus]

alperez wrote...

Yezdigerd raises the points about Tali that a lot of people bring up, that is she supports Shepard despite his working with cerberus which is what a good friend should do.

Now while i personally agree with this, i also have a problem with it when its then compared or used to portray the VS's stance as less loyal or even as if the circumstances where the same.

Firstly the VS being a serving member of the alliance dropping everything and agreeing with or following Shepard would be desertion and borders on the treason that they accuse Shepard of.

Secondly, Tali unlike the VS doesn't meet idiot Shepard, she meets the same Shepard we all know, the one who's able to put across his case in a proper manner and convince people of his actions, the Shepard who turns up on Horizon forgets the simple act of conversation, he somehow loses all the charm or intimidate points he's always has and puts across his case as well as Conrad Verner would.

Basically on Horizon Shepard is like Austin Powers without his mojo, hell at any time i half expected Dr. Evil to pop out.

But the major difference between the position Tali takes and Ash does, is on freedoms progress Tali needs Shepard's help to complete her mission, she can and does see Shepard in action and can judge him based on his actual actions, even then though she still doesn't join right up, she leaves continues on her own mission until which once again she ends up needing Shepards help to complete.

It's only then after the time from the first encounter to the second has elapsed that Tali gives her full and complete support to Shepard, she's had time to evaluate that the VS doesn't get, on Horizon while Shepard was doing his thing the VS was incapaciatated, they did not get to see Shepard in action, only the results of that action.

They haven't seen Shepard stomping a mudhole in the collectors, do thier judgement on Shepard's motivations is still unknown because instead of seeing him in action, they only see him working with cerberus. They then have to make thier judgement call then and there, they don't get the option of time to evaluate, or have any clear indication that Shepard is doing the right thing other than his nonsensical you can trust me explanation.

So while Tali does the right thing and the VS does not, the reasons why this happens make the situations and the outcomes completely different.

I agree on all points but the last.  Which I don't think is clear.  We don't know what the VS did or did not see.   Do we know how aware the people in stasis were?

Also given how quickly she made an appearance and seemed fully mobile after the Collector Ship left, it seems reasonable to assume she at least caught the end of the fight, and the GARDIAN Tower blasting away at the cruiser.  

While I admit it could be possible that this was an elaborate show put on by Cerberus, it would have seemed a more reasonable assumption if the VS had any evidence to that effect.

[Iakus]

alperez wrote...

iakus wrote...

 The problem comes from the VS assuming Shepardis betraying  the Alliance.

Especially given, you know, the lockdown incident. 

The lockdown situation though is completely different, the VS was present during the circumstances and the decision making process which led up to the lockdown, they were working alongside Shepard and could judge his motivations that much easier, they also had their own interpretation of the same events Shepard had gone through to judge his choice on also.

Horizon is more a fait accompli, its presented as this is what has to be done, with no evidence of why and with the Vs coming from a completely different position.

It would be like if the VS had been assigned to Shepards ship just before the Lockdown with no idea of what the hell had happened previously, Shepard deciding to steal the normandy and expecting the VS to just accept it, Shepard would be asking them to commit an act of treason against the people they serve with no relevant facts or info to support his actions, which is pretty much how Horizon comes across from their perspective.

Actually the difference here is the lockdown.  It's the fact that Shepard has in fact made this kind of choice before.

The VS was there for that, knew Shepard's reasonings and what drove him/her to that choice.  The VS also knows what SHepard thought of that choice:  Sad, angry, resigned, etc.  In essence, the VS knows what kind of pressure it would take for Shepard to take that kind of extreme action.

Now Shepard has allied with Cerberus.  Using the lockdown as a reference point, the VS should be able to gauge how much Shepard would weigh making such a choice.  What kind of conditions could convince SHep to make such a Faustian bargain.  

Even if the VS doens't know the relevant facts behind working with Cerberus, he/she should know what kind of facts it tooko before.

[BobZilla84]

I think that the main thing to me isn't trusting The Virmire Survivor my Shepard understood why Ashley reacted the way she did on Horizon and he will no doubt be able to fully trust her again in Mass Effect 3.

As for My Shepard that Romanced Ashley and stayed Faithful to her I have mixed feeling's about thing's The Horizon email was ok but I get the distinct impression that Bioware wrote Horizon specifically to break up Shepard & The VS Setting up the drama in ME3 I guess but it still sucks you know because I love Ashley.

More and more everyday it seems that Shepard/Liara is destined to be the Canon Pairing it already Outshines The VS's Romance by the simple fact that in Mass Effect 3 they are already back as a couple
at the beginning of Mass Effect 3.

Now Shepard/VS are Broken Up at the Start of Mass Effect 3 Horizon was a Breakup no matter what we VS fans say  and that's what ticks me off I don't want to have to spend an entire game trying to get back with The VS and all the while Shepard/Liara are already together.

I still want one last Mass Effect 2 DLC before Mass Effect 3 Is Released tieing up lose ends like how Shepard ended up in Alliance Custody and along with The Normandy where Shepards's Dirty Dozen Ended up but most importantly it wpould allow us VS fans to set things right going into ME3 like reaffirming our Romance with the VS.

Modifié par BobZilla 2k10, 28 octobre 2011 - 08:47 .

[Siansonea]

And the thing about Tali is, even after she joins Shepard, she's still EXTREMELY hostile toward Cerberus. Cerberus is the bitterest of bitter pills for anyone to swallow, and yet people get highly pissed when Kaidan says "you betrayed everything we stood for" and turns down an invitation to desert the Alliance Marines and become a fugitive from justice to serve aboard Shepard's new Cerberus Normandy. This is what I like to call "playercharacteritis".

We don't know what ELSE Kaidan and Ashley have going on, we don't know what they've been doing for the last two years that Shepard was with Cerberus, and we don't know what other, larger mission they might be involved in. And they certainly couldn't share any information with card-carrying Cerberus sympathizer Shepard. No doubt they have other fish to fry, and couldn't just drop everything to sign up with a terrorist organization even if they wanted to. Garrus was a free agent, Tali had completed her mission. Wrex and Liara had other things to do, and couldn't accept Shepard's invitation either. But Wrex is given a pass, because we can see what his other task is. Liara is given a pass because she's "nice" to Shepard, even though we don't know (at first) what's really going on with her. Ashley and Kaidan's activities are a closely guarded secret, so well guarded that even the Illusive Man doesn't know all the details. So let's not assume that they just told Shepard to talk to the hand because of a fit of pique.

[Homebound]

I think Kaidan's a pretty cool guy, I feel like I could trust him. I mean, he's not the kind of guy to leave you hanging to save his own behind.

[Yezdigerd]

Mr. Brainheart wrote...
Who's to say the VS isn't trying to fight the Reaper threat? What if they wanted to become a  Spectre so that they have the means to fight the Reapers more independently? They might have been the ones who actually tried to continue the fight against the Reapers, in the way Shepard did. You're assuming they don't want to help, but it's been two years since Shepard death and since they're Spectres in ME3, they might have been on evaluation missions during the time. Who knows? You really can't say they didn't want to help, we don't know.

If they are fighting the reapers(which the alliance denies exists btw) they don't seem to be doing a good job. Their ineptitude would have spelt the doom for themselves and the people of Horizon unless Shepard and the terrorists hadn't saved them.
Shepard offers them a chance to make a difference and the VS turns him down. because they are "alliance solders"

[Jade5233]

Kaidan is a very loyal, ethical character. I will always trust him. My canon character went through much of ME2 using the thought "What would Kaidan want me to do?" if she had an ethical dilemma. Even in his abence, he was my Shepard's moral compass.

[hawat333]

The VS does not betray Shepard on Horizon.
Look closer at the picture.
Commander Shepard, dead for two years shows up wearing a rouge black ops organization's colors. He/she didn't try to contact the VS, at the very least Shepard could have passed a short message by Anderson. Etc, etc. Actually, Horizon is Shepard's betrayal of the VS.

[Abispa]

Why did the VS "abandon" Shepard on Horizon? So ME3 can have some incredibly hot and steamy make-up sex.

[ADLegend21]

iakus wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Shepard's not a child. the VS can't just say "come along [insert Shep's first name] let's go back home and away from these strangers. Shepard is also one of the most lethal organics in the galaxy so they trust Shepard to get the hell out of there when the time comes. Also Tali claims she's working wit Shepard, not Cebrerus even though wehn you go to the fleet for her missino "your ship is flagged as cebrerus Tali'Zorah" which isn't a good thing seeing as she's already on trial for treason in the first place. (not to mention yuo cna bring Legion which would actually mke her guiltiy of bringing active geth the the fleet ) the VS is in no way saying what you put in their mouths, They wish Shepard luck since they're obviously not leaving the Normandy or Cerberus and they're not gonna waste their breath trying to convince her so they just leave to report back to the Alliance (or council if they're already Spectres) Actually Tali chose to stay with the fleet on Freedoms progress, but she got sickof it when the geth ambuhse dher team and they all died except for Reegar and Shepard showed up to recruit her. She also has an admiral for a father so she could go "daddy please!" and he'd grant her permission (as he does in the letter he sends after she's recruited.)

Actually, if the VS had said something like "Come back with me, we'll get this straightened out" I would have found that detail far more realistic.  Of course, something would have to come along to prevent Shepard from taking up the offer, but still...

And part of the reason Tali refuses to join Shepard is because of her secret Haestrom mission.  Not so different from the VS's obligations to the Alliance (I'm sure they're probably already being groomed for Spectreship at this point)

by that time Shepard's alrady had a chance to do that, they've met with Anderson and the coucnil (if the original one is alive) so you had your chance to "get this traightened out" they try to convince oyu how bad tey are but oyu won't listen so they just give up and wish you the best.

[alperez]

iakus

I concede the point that we don't know just exactly how aware people are in stasis.

In terms of what the VS sees though or how they may intepret what they see, their own words still suggest that they at that point still believe Cerberus and the collectors could be working together, which suggests they didn't see too much of the fight or that even if they did they're not sure its still not an elaborate hoax on cerberus part.

As for the Lockdown, yes they know what would force Shepard into a specific course of action 2 years previously, the problem though is that they also know that Shepard 2 years ago was not being influenced by outside interests, something this time round they're not sure of.

The cerberus factor changes things, 2 years ago they working alongside Shepard could see exactly what forced him into the choice he made and that he made that choice freely, now they not only don't know why he's making the choice but also if he's making the choice because its the right one or because he's being manipulated, duped, controlled into making that choice.

[Mr. Brainheart]

Yezdigerd wrote...

If they are fighting the reapers(which the alliance denies exists btw) they don't seem to be doing a good job. Their ineptitude would have spelt the doom for themselves and the people of Horizon unless Shepard and the terrorists hadn't saved them.
Shepard offers them a chance to make a difference and the VS turns him down. because they are "alliance solders"

Shepard offers them a chance to work with Cerberus, incidentally the people who lured the collectors to Horizon in the first place, acting like that's pretty normal, highly stating that he doesn't really work for them, that's not a very convincing statement from someone who arrives in one of their ships and was rebuild by them.
 
And my point was that they might have been preparing, they might have been training to become Spectres, I'm not saying they wanted to keep track of what's happening on the Reaper front, but it's a possibily. The VS might be able to make much more of a difference once they are Spectres, then they would've fighting along on Shepard's SM.

[Yezdigerd]

Siansonea II wrote...

Pretzel logic isn't my go-to first assumption. Usually the simplest explanation is the accurate one. The simple explanation is that Shepard has joined Cerberus of her own accord, without coercion. And  if she does that, she's not the person I thought she was, and she's probably not the person the VS thought she was. I wouldn't think "hmmm, Shepard's acting weird, she must be suffering from mind control, I have to save her from herself!"  Of course, because we players are 3rd-party observers, we know that the situation is more complicated than that. But there's no reason the VS should make all sorts of weird assumptions when a very simple explanation satisfies all the circumstances.

And there's a difference between making a difficult, controversial choice after careful consideration and exhausting all other options, and making that same decision after a five minute conversation with a person you haven't seen in two years who is acting...different.

As I see it depends on the Shepard, a ME1 hardcore renegade Shepard joining Cerberus is quite a believeable progression. A paragon one would raise the suscpion of mind control for me, and that you don't  attribute weirdness to mindcontrol is of course to be expected . It's not really a science in our day and age,
But controlchips and indoctrination are the reality of the mass effect Universe,as the VS very well knows,

but the thing is that the VS makes no effort to find out .. at all, which just break the immersion for me.

[Unpleasant Implications]

I trust the VS to do their job, to point a gun at me if they believe my decision will damn humanity. Hell, I may even point one back, after all we'll both be doing the same thing. What we believe is right... I'm looking forward to see how it'll go.

[BobZilla84]

There was a Betrayal but neither Shepard or The Virmire Survivor are responsible of it so I don't expect apologies from either in my opinion the Betrayal fall's directly in The Alliance's Lap so to speak.

Shepard can go directly to the Citadel and report to Anderson and the Council who can reninstate his Spectre Status. And there Is the Betrayal by Anderson and The Alliance they knew he was alive and working with Cerberus and instead of getting a message to Ashley/Kaidan they Stonewall them then when Ashley/Kaidan actually does meet up with Shepard they declare he's a traitor against The Alliance,The Council and even Shepards own morals and beliefs which could have been prevented by Anderson and The Alliance before Horizon a simple message telling them about Shepard being alive.

I also thought that Arrival showed The Alliances true colors regarding Shepard They needed someone to take the fall for a botched up Alliance Op who's better than Shepard to fill that role they used his loyalty aganist him they knew Shepard knew a War with the Batarians was not an option so he did what was needed by taking the fall for The Alliance. Giving The Alliance The Normandy as well as Shepard himself.

[Yezdigerd]

[quote]Siansonea II wrote...

And the thing about Tali is, even after she joins Shepard, she's still EXTREMELY hostile toward Cerberus. Cerberus is the bitterest of bitter pills for anyone to swallow, and yet people get highly pissed when Kaidan says "you betrayed everything we stood for" [/quote]

Yes what is it you don't understand about this? Tali hates Cerberus but she overcome this because she realizes that is just one more reason Shepard needs his real friends to watch his back. She knows that nothing she can do for the flotilla is as important as helping Shepard fight the reapers, so "if the admirals don't like it, they can go to hell".
She rises and overcome her antipathy for the big picture while the the VS acts like a petulant child.


[quote]and turns down an invitation to desert the Alliance Marines and become a fugitive from justice to serve aboard Shepard's new Cerberus Normandy. This is what I like to call "playercharacteritis". [/quote]

No, Horizon was the playercharacteritis, the real Ashely Kaidan became fugatives from justice in ME1 and their choice and trust in Shepard was massively vindicated, While Shepard was gone they have apprently recieved some kind of lobotomy, since their change of judgement makes no sense at all.
Besides I really wonder how this "fugative from justice" thing works. Jacob, Joker, Chakwas, Gabby, Ken doesn't seem to be at all bothered about deserting the alliance and becoming terrorists and they seem to be able to go anywhere without fear of being apprehended.
Which gives me the impression that while the alliance disawows Cerberus they really don't make any effort to prosecute them. When Admiral Hackett hangs out with his Cerberus buddies and says that Cerberus is one of the few who are actually doing something he seems to speak for a silent majority in the alliance.
Hackett

[quote]We don't know what ELSE Kaidan and Ashley have going on, we don't know what they've been doing for the last two years that Shepard was with Cerberus, and we don't know what other, larger mission they might be involved in. And they certainly couldn't share any information with card-carrying Cerberus sympathizer Shepard.[/quote]

We know that they were woefully inadequatelly prepared on Horizon and would have had the died together with the the colonists they failed to defend unless the terrorists the VS cannot trust to work with hadn't saved them. and admiral Hackett could certainly share information with card-carrying Cerberus sympathizer Shepard. But I guess he is "friend" who "trust" Shepard unlike the VS.

No doubt they have other fish to fry, and couldn't just drop everything to sign up with a terrorist organization even if they wanted to. Garrus was a free agent, Tali had completed her mission. Wrex and Liara had other things to do, and couldn't accept Shepard's invitation either. But Wrex is given a pass, because we can see what his other task is. Liara is given a pass because she's "nice" to Shepard, even though we don't know (at first) what's really going on with her. [/quote]

Tali had completed her mission but are still serving actively. Garrus might not have had a payed job, but that doesn't mean joining a suicide mission with Cerberus is something to take for granted.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 28 octobre 2011 - 09:42 .

[Siansonea]

 

Yezdigerd wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...


Pretzel logic isn't my go-to first assumption. Usually the simplest explanation is the accurate one. The simple explanation is that Shepard has joined Cerberus of her own accord, without coercion. And  if she does that, she's not the person I thought she was, and she's probably not the person the VS thought she was. I wouldn't think "hmmm, Shepard's acting weird, she must be suffering from mind control, I have to save her from herself!"  Of course, because we players are 3rd-party observers, we know that the situation is more complicated than that. But there's no reason the VS should make all sorts of weird assumptions when a very simple explanation satisfies all the circumstances.


And there's a difference between making a difficult, controversial choice after careful consideration and exhausting all other options, and making that same decision after a five minute conversation with a person you haven't seen in two years who is acting...different.

As I see it depends on the Shepard, a ME1 hardcore renegade Shepard joining Cerberus is quite a believeable progression. A paragon one would raise the suscpion of mind control for me, and that you don't  attribute weirdness to mindcontrol is of course to be expected . It's not really a science in our day and age,
But controlchips and indoctrination are the reality of the mass effect Universe,as the VS very well knows,


but the thing is that the VS makes no effort to find out .. at all, which just break the immersion for me.

"Breaks immersion"? Can we get a moratorium on that RIDICULOUS phrase? 


You know what "breaks MY immersion?" The Lazarus Project. Bringing somebody back from the DEAD is the realm of magic, not science. You can't just restart a dead brain. You can clone the sh¡t out of a dead body if you've got the DNA, you can repair all sorts of other processes, but you can't "repair" a nonfunctioning brain unless you get to it within moments of brain death, and even THEN it would take a major handwave of scientific fact. 


But the fact remains that your argument just doesn't hold water. The fact that you're calling the VS "inept" because of the way they handled Horizon shows that you aren't thinking clearly. The VS had NO information about the Collectors, Shepard, seeker swarms, etc. All the VS had was a few crumbs of intel from Anderson, namely that Horizon might be the next colony attacked (but not WHY the Alliance thinks that) and that Cerberus might be behind the attacks (but not WHY the Alliance thinks that). Anderson, who knows Shepard is alive, who knows Shepard is working with Cerberus, doesn't tell the VS ANYTHING about this, even though it's directly related to the VS' mission. So yeah, a person who doesn't have the information that others have access to is not going to perform as well as a person who has all the intel and has had time to prepare to address the threats they know about. Shepard knew about seeker swarms, had Mordin's countermeasure, etc., and was able to operate freely while the VS was frozen in stasis. That is NOT the VS' fault. The VS asks Shepard several questions about her actions on Horizon, turns down Shepard's preposterous offer to join Cerberus (Cerberus!), then leaves to report back to Anderson. They did their job to the best of their ability given the information they had. Nowhere in their mandate was there a need to quit the Alliance and join a terrorist organization. Seriously, what kind of weed to you have to be smoking to not get that?

[Xilizhra]

Liara is given a pass because she's "nice" to Shepard, even though we don't know (at first) what's really going on with her.

Liara's only given a pass because LotSB gave some kind of closure.

[Xilizhra]

jreezy wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Liara is given a pass because she's "nice" to Shepard, even though we don't know (at first) what's really going on with her.

Liara's only given a pass because LotSB gave some kind of closure.

I gave her a pass even before I played LOTSB.

Well, those who are good at passes would do so, yes. I did as well. But many others may not.

[Siansonea]

For God's sake, learn how to format a reply post

Yezdigerd wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...


And the thing about Tali is, even after she joins Shepard, she's still EXTREMELY hostile toward Cerberus. Cerberus is the bitterest of bitter pills for anyone to swallow, and yet people get highly pissed when Kaidan says "you betrayed everything we stood for"

Yes what is it you don't understand about this? Tali hates Cerberus but she overcome this because she realizes that is just one more reason Shepard needs his real friends to watch his back. She knows that nothing she can do for the flotilla is as important as helping Shepard fight the reapers, so "if the admirals don't like it, they can go to hell".
She rises and overcome her antipathy for the big picture while the the VS acts like petulant child.

How very simplistic. And how very Shepard-centric. Shepard isn't the center of the universe, and it's not a foregone conclusion that Shepard is the only one who can/should stop the Reapers. Seriously, Shepard's been dead for two years. How do you get from "Shepard's been dead for two years, we have to stop the Reapers without her" to "Shepard's the only one who can stop the Reapers, I have to drop everything I'm doing to help her out!" in the space of a five-minute conversation?

...and turns down an invitation to desert the Alliance Marines and become a fugitive from justice to serve aboard Shepard's new Cerberus Normandy. This is what I like to call "playercharacteritis".

No, Horizon was the playercharacteritis, the real Ashely Kaidan became fugatives from justice in ME1 and their choice and trust in Shepard was massively vindicated, While Shepard was gone they have apprently recieved some kind of lobotomy, since their change of judgement makes no sense at all.
Besides I really wonder how this "fugative from justice" thing works. Jacob, Joker, Chakwas, Gabby, Ken doesn't seem to be at all bothered about deserting the alliance and becoming terrorists and they seem to be able to go anywhere without fear of being apprehended.
Which gives me the impression that while the alliance disawows Cerberus they really don't make any effort to prosecute them. When Admiral Hackett hangs out with his Cerberus buddies and says that Cerberus is one of the few who are actually doing something he seems to speak for a silent majority in the alliance.
Hacketts

The VS chose to help Shepard steal the Normandy SR1 after a long mission WITH Shepard, after having been privy to the ENTIRE mission since Eden Prime. That's a lot different from seeing Shepard on Horizon two years after they "died" and Shepard snaps her fingers and expects the VS to heel like a lap dog. Does she think the VS has been just sitting around waiting for Shepard to magically be resurrected to continue the fight against the Reapers? Obviously with Shepard dead, the people who believe in the Reaper threat had to soldier on without her, and it's not a foregone conclusion that with Shepard back in the picture she automatically becomes the renewed focus of those efforts. Shepard is just one soldier, a soldier with rather dubious connections at this point. Seriously, you don't seem to understand the realities of military operations, political situations, and interpersonal conflicts if this conflict comes down to "my friend Tali joined me, and you didn't, so I don't like you any more". Seriously, how old ARE you?

We don't know what ELSE Kaidan and Ashley have going on, we don't know what they've been doing for the last two years that Shepard was with Cerberus, and we don't know what other, larger mission they might be involved in. And they certainly couldn't share any information with card-carrying Cerberus sympathizer Shepard. No doubt they have other fish to fry, and couldn't just drop everything to sign up with a terrorist organization even if they wanted to. Garrus was a free agent, Tali had completed her mission. Wrex and Liara had other things to do, and couldn't accept Shepard's invitation either. But Wrex is given a pass, because we can see what his other task is. Liara is given a pass because she's "nice" to Shepard, even though we don't know (at first) what's really going on with her. Ashley and Kaidan's activities are a closely guarded secret, so well guarded that even the Illusive Man doesn't know all the details. So let's not assume that they just told Shepard to talk to the hand because of a fit of pique.

No response?

Modifié par Siansonea II, 28 octobre 2011 - 09:43 .