527 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

jreezy wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
"Breaks immersion"? Can we get a moratorium on that RIDICULOUS phrase? 


You know what "breaks MY immersion?" The Lazarus Project. Bringing somebody back from the DEAD is the realm of magic, not science. You can't just restart a dead brain. You can clone the sh¡t out of a dead body if you've got the DNA, you can repair all sorts of other processes, but you can't "repair" a nonfunctioning brain unless you get to it within moments of brain death, and even THEN it would take a major handwave of scientific fact. 

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Clarke is that you?

That only works up to a point. How on earth would you restore a dead brain? There's only so much the magic wand of "science fiction" can push the envelope. Beyond a certain point, you have to say "Oh, come ON!"

[Siansonea]

jreezy wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
"Breaks immersion"? Can we get a moratorium on that RIDICULOUS phrase? 


You know what "breaks MY immersion?" The Lazarus Project. Bringing somebody back from the DEAD is the realm of magic, not science. You can't just restart a dead brain. You can clone the sh¡t out of a dead body if you've got the DNA, you can repair all sorts of other processes, but you can't "repair" a nonfunctioning brain unless you get to it within moments of brain death, and even THEN it would take a major handwave of scientific fact. 

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Clarke is that you?

That only works up to a point. How on earth would you restore a dead brain? There's only so much the magic wand of "science fiction" can push the envelope. Beyond a certain point, you have to say "Oh, come ON!"

In this day and age wiith our level of technology we definitely would. Physicists from 200 years ago couldn't fathom things like aircraft and radio but hey, look at us now. People of today couldn't fathom bringing a dead brain back to life two years after death. The only thing I can say about the Lazarus Project is..."Hey, look at us now".

Scientists of 1811 might not have been able to predict the future of science, but the idea that you can take a pile of frozen, degraded "meat and tubes" and reconstruct a human brain and personality and memories, that's just beyond the pale for me. That's still very much in the realms of magic, and I think even today's leading biologists would roll their eyes at that one.

[Xilizhra]

Personality and memories are just chemicals. Assuming you can work out exactly how much of said chemicals different parts of the brain have been putting out and reconstruct them to the same levels, it could be done; fiddly, but theoretically possible. I suspect the vast majority of those two years was spent on brain reconstruction, as the bodily reconstruction would be relatively easy.

[Saaziel]

Xilizhra wrote...

Personality and memories are just chemicals.

From what i understand its mostly structural. We both share , for all intents and purposes , the same brain chemistry. What differs is the physical construct of the brain; Unique connection between neurons and the various parts of the nervous system.

In this case , i'd say its the blind leading the blind , as i have no credential or support in the matter. Just throwing this out there.

Modifié par Saaziel, 28 octobre 2011 - 10:47 .

[Yezdigerd]

Siansonea II wrote...

"Breaks immersion"? Can we get a moratorium on that RIDICULOUS phrase?

Why? If the last time you defied the alliance and trusted Shepard's judgement you saved all sentient life in the galaxy wouldn't that predispose you to defer to Shepards' judgement again?

You know what "breaks MY immersion?" The Lazarus Project. Bringing somebody back from the DEAD is the realm of magic, not science. You can't just restart a dead brain. You can clone the sh¡t out of a dead body if you've got the DNA, you can repair all sorts of other processes, but you can't "repair" a nonfunctioning brain unless you get to it within moments of brain death, and even THEN it would take a major handwave of scientific fact.

I agree, its a even weaker point, but I fail to see what it has to do with this topic.

But the fact remains that your argument just doesn't hold water. The fact that you're calling the VS "inept" because of the way they handled Horizon shows that you aren't thinking clearly. The VS had NO information about the Collectors, Shepard, seeker swarms, etc. All the VS had was a few crumbs of intel from Anderson, namely that Horizon might be the next colony attacked (but not WHY the Alliance thinks that) and that Cerberus might be behind the attacks (but not WHY the Alliance thinks that). Anderson, who knows Shepard is alive, who knows Shepard is working with Cerberus, doesn't tell the VS ANYTHING about this, even though it's directly related to the VS' mission. So yeah, a person who doesn't have the information that others have access to is not going to perform as well as a person who has all the intel and has had time to prepare to address the threats they know about.Shepard knew about seeker swarms, had Mordin's countermeasure, etc., and
was able to operate freely while the VS was frozen in stasis. That is
NOT the VS' fault.

Yep glad we can agree that the VS faith in the alliance is misplaced. While Shepard's faith in collaberating with Cerberus is vindicated. Which is one of the strongest reason to why the VS should take Shepard seriously.
If Shepard had been a faithful "alliance soldier" all people on horizon would have been dead. You think that would have been some food for the VS thoughts.
Shepard knew about these things because Cerberus, the terrorists organisation has a superior leadership and a superior intelligence and chose better people for the mission. The alliance even denies the reapers are real, so its hardly surprising that they fail their responsiblity to protect human interest so massively.

Really why what could the VS say to shake Shepar's faith in his faith in Cerberus? . Come back to the alliance and take orders from clueless people and lets die together? His/her judgement is demonstratively superior to the VS.

Seriously, what kind of weed to you have to be smoking to not get that?

Oh dear weed? The VS knows that the reaper threat is real and that the alliance on Horizon demonstrated its inability to handle the threat. A lot of people on Horizon would have been the victims of the VS misplaced faith in the alliance. It's somber thought for a conscientous officer. Maybe they should stop offering undeserved faith in the alliance before the consequences become even more tragic.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 28 octobre 2011 - 10:44 .

[alperez]

Yezdigerd wrote...



Why? If the last time you defied the alliance and trusted Shepard's judgement you saved all sentient life in the galaxy wouldn't that predispose you to defer to Shepards' judgement again?

Sorry to jump in on your discussion, but a couple of things you bring up i wanted to comment on.

While its true that trusting Shepard's judgement led to stopping Saren and saving lifes as you point out, the problem is that at that time there was no outside influence that brought Shepard's judgement into question, unlike now, also the VS's own experiences of why Shepard made the calls he did are entirely different because unlike then this time they weren't around when the facts leading to the judgement call were made.

The seperation from Shepard for the past 2 years allied to Shepards new found alliance with Cerberus call into question whether or not he's making the judgement call for the right reasons or the wrong ones, be it because he's changed significantly by choice or by outside influences.

. The alliance even denies the reapers are real, so its hardly surprising that they fail their responsiblity to protect human interest so massively.

Also this isn't entirely true, officially perhaps, but as Hackett points out in Arrival, they aren't just accepting the reapers are real, they're actually in the process and have been in the process of building their fleets up in preparation for them.

[Nerevar-as]

i just dismiss the issue as poor wrting. The jarring thing is it´s probably intended so you would move to a ME2 LI. I hate when characters are forced to act OOC to move a plot that wasn´t even necessary.

[Yezdigerd]

[quote]Siansonea II wrote...

And the thing about Tali is, even after she joins Shepard, she's still EXTREMELY hostile toward Cerberus. Cerberus is the bitterest of bitter pills for anyone to swallow, and yet people get highly pissed when Kaidan says "you betrayed everything we stood for" [/quote]


Yes what is it you don't understand about this? Tali hates Cerberus but she overcome this because she realizes that is just one more reason Shepard needs his real friends to watch his back. She knows that nothing she can do for the flotilla is as important as helping Shepard fight the reapers, so "if the admirals don't like it, they can go to hell".
She rises and overcome her antipathy for the big picture while the the VS acts like petulant child.[/quote]


[quote]How very simplistic. And how very Shepard-centric. Shepard isn't the center of the universe, and it's not a foregone conclusion that Shepard is the only one who can/should stop the Reapers. Seriously, Shepard's been dead for two years. How do you get from "Shepard's been dead for two years, we have to stop the Reapers without her" to "Shepard's the only one who can stop the Reapers, I have to drop everything I'm doing to help her out!" in the space of a five-minute conversation?[/quote]

And never said Shepard was the only who could stop the reapers did I? It's just that I don't know any other force who makes a dedicated effort to oppose the reapers the VS could join, but perhaps you know something I don't.
the five minute conversation seemed to be the VS choice not Shepards and considering how futile the VS mission on Horizon was it doesn't seem the VS have anything better to do.


[quote]The VS chose to help Shepard steal the Normandy SR1 after a long mission WITH Shepard, after having been privy to the ENTIRE mission since Eden Prime. That's a lot different from seeing Shepard on Horizon two years after they "died" and Shepard snaps her fingers and expects the VS to heel like a lap dog. Does she think the VS has been just sitting around waiting for Shepard to magically be resurrected to continue the fight against the Reapers? [/quote]

I agree betraying the alliance should come easier in the first game but the fact is that the VS did, which make abusing Shepard for doing so again hypocritical. From what we know from Horizon the VS sitting around waiting seems to be the case doesn't it? The VS has not the first idea about to handle the threat.

[quote]Obviously with Shepard dead, the people who believe in the Reaper threat had to soldier on without her, and it's not a foregone conclusion that with Shepard back in the picture she automatically becomes the renewed focus of those efforts. Shepard is just one soldier, a soldier with rather dubious connections at this point. Seriously, you don't seem to understand the realities of military operations, political situations, and interpersonal conflicts if this conflict comes down to "my friend Tali joined me, and you didn't, so I don't like you any more". Seriously, how old ARE you?[/quote]

Sorry, you said something?

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 28 octobre 2011 - 11:11 .

[rudenotginger]

Actually, I trust the VS more than I trust Garrus, Tali or Liara because the VS showed that they are loyal to their convictions and won't just follow Shepard blindly no matter who s/he's affiliated with. They may not have come with Shepard in ME2, but they're fighting the good fight, and in the end, they'll always have his/her back. Plus, Horizon was mostly Shepard's fault. "How have you been?"?? Really??

[mllrthyme]

^ This. Exactly. And yes, "how've you been," is probably not the best question for Shep to ask when the VS thought they were DEAD for 2 years. It's a total headdesk moment.

[Quole]

rudenotginger wrote...

Actually, I trust the VS more than I trust Garrus, Tali or Liara because the VS showed that they are loyal to their convictions and won't just follow Shepard blindly no matter who s/he's affiliated with. They may not have come with Shepard in ME2, but they're fighting the good fight, and in the end, they'll always have his/her back. Plus, Horizon was mostly Shepard's fault. "How have you been?"?? Really??

Lol? The good fight? Shepard is fighting the reapers. THAT is the good fight. Tali, Liara, and Garrus are HELPING fight aginst the reapers while the VS apparently forgot about them.

[Chun Hei]

When Jacob first saw Shepard s/he was "nothing but meat and tubes." Of course the VS is stupid to find it suspicious that an organization that researches mind control and biological engineering brought him back from the dead. Even Cerberus hating Tali takes it in stride and says that Cerberus spending gazillions of credits to resurrect one wo/man is money well spent.

[Chun Hei]

Quole wrote...

rudenotginger wrote...

Actually, I trust the VS more than I trust Garrus, Tali or Liara because the VS showed that they are loyal to their convictions and won't just follow Shepard blindly no matter who s/he's affiliated with. They may not have come with Shepard in ME2, but they're fighting the good fight, and in the end, they'll always have his/her back. Plus, Horizon was mostly Shepard's fault. "How have you been?"?? Really??

Lol? The good fight? Shepard is fighting the reapers. THAT is the good fight. Tali, Liara, and Garrus are HELPING fight aginst the reapers while the VS apparently forgot about them.

Liara is too busy killing people and hacking terminals to help Shepard and does not go on the suicide mission either. Tali is too busy studying aging stars in Geth controlled territory to go with Shepard until s/he saves her and Reeger. Garrus was on the verge of being wiped out when Shepard took him to the Normandy while he was unconcious and dying.

[Quole]

Chun Hei wrote...

Quole wrote...

rudenotginger wrote...

Actually, I trust the VS more than I trust Garrus, Tali or Liara because the VS showed that they are loyal to their convictions and won't just follow Shepard blindly no matter who s/he's affiliated with. They may not have come with Shepard in ME2, but they're fighting the good fight, and in the end, they'll always have his/her back. Plus, Horizon was mostly Shepard's fault. "How have you been?"?? Really??

Lol? The good fight? Shepard is fighting the reapers. THAT is the good fight. Tali, Liara, and Garrus are HELPING fight aginst the reapers while the VS apparently forgot about them.

Liara is too busy killing people and hacking terminals to help Shepard and does not go on the suicide mission either. Tali is too busy studying aging stars in Geth controlled territory to go with Shepard until s/he saves her and Reeger. Garrus was on the verge of being wiped out when Shepard took him to the Normandy while he was unconcious and dying.

Yes and then Garrus and Tali join shepard whereas the VS just calls you a traitor. Liara also helps you on Ilium. The VS has a right to be skeptical but did they just forget about the reapers?

Modifié par Quole, 29 octobre 2011 - 02:24 .

[Chun Hei]

Liara needs someone to hack terminals for her and does not go on a mission to save the galaxy from extinction because she wants to kill someone before the Reapers eventually will. Tali wants information on a a dying sun that an extinct Quarian race will never have a chance to use when the Reapers show up. Garrus really never has a choice though I am sure in his case he probably would have joined anyway.

I am not hard on those characters because I believe the writers just had to find clumsy ways to get Shepard sidetracked from saving the galaxy to solve their personal problems. That is why I do not get worked up over the Horizon situation since Bioware said they did not want the VS or Liara in the suicide mission and force them to come up with some silly reason why they were the only characters who cannot die.

[jeweledleah]

jreezy wrote...

rudenotginger wrote...

Actually, I trust the VS more than I trust Garrus, Tali or Liara because the VS showed that they are loyal to their convictions and won't just follow Shepard blindly no matter who s/he's affiliated with. They may not have come with Shepard in ME2, but they're fighting the good fight, and in the end, they'll always have his/her back. Plus, Horizon was mostly Shepard's fault. "How have you been?"?? Really??

Because that is not a normal thing to say to an acquaintance or friend you haven't seen in a long time? Riiiight.

not if the last time you saw that aquantance, the ship was falling appart around you adn then they though you died, and then you show up after months of rumors floating about you - working with terrorist.. oh and when you find them, they were about to be "collected".

no how have you been just doesn't cut it, not by a long shot.  I pretty much have to headcanon my Shepards into losing their eloquence out of exaustion and/or relief.

also - Garrus almost dies.  he wakes up already ON the ship and presumably Dr Chakwas whom he knows (unless you didn't recruit him in prior game, but here's another plothole for you) fills him in.  when you just meet him though, it seems like he hasn't heard the same rumors VS has (which would be understandable, concidering that Garrus was too busy being vigilante) so he doesn't have the same suspicions to deal with.  not to mention he wasn't sent to Omega to investigate Cerberus activities.

Tali?  she doesn't join you the first time you meet her and she allies with Shepard to find Veetor becasue they are having serious trouble with the mechs.  enemy of my enemy is a friend and all that.  she joins you the second time around because she is fed up with Admiralty board, fed up with losing people under her command and she knows at this point exactly what Shepard is doing (remember youdon't even get her recruitment mission untill AFTER Horizon)

all VS has to go on is the fact that they have a tip that Cerberus is the one behind the colony dissapearances, they were told some disturbing rumors (probably the same ones that council has heard), and then Shepard shows up, with  cerberus vessel, CONFIRMING his/her association with Cerberus. and its not like Shepard gives any explanations, Shepard just goes - trust me! 

and Liara?  liara was the one that GAVE Shepard to Cerberus and then didn't tell anyone else about it.  if she were angry about Shepard actualy working with them, she would be the most hypocritical being in the galaxy.

[Air36723]

my only problem with the VS is that its kaidan for my main shep, despite the fact that i never really liked him in ME1 i saved him instead of Ash cause i didn't want to have a romance with her going into ME2, which the previous save had finished with. I have no problem with the fact that the VS said no, nor do i find it funny that garrus or tali (mains LI) said yes, remember tali said no the first time shep asked, Garrus was in a position of go with shep or die (not to meantion ROCKET to the face), tali sorta similar situation, cause if shep hadnt shown up kal and her would have died.

[Iakus]

ADLegend21 wrote...
by that time Shepard's alrady had a chance to do that, they've met with Anderson and the coucnil (if the original one is alive) so you had your chance to "get this traightened out" they try to convince oyu how bad tey are but oyu won't listen so they just give up and wish you the best.

Ah, but they didn't really try to convince Shepard.  Any more than Shepard tried to convince them that working with Cerberus was necessary..

 Also as far as we know, the VS hadn't learned about Shepard's visit to the CItadel until afterwards (in my head-canon, the Collectors had already cut communications to Horizon so Anderson's message never got through).  Shep's return was still just a rumor as far as they knew.  So to them, there's still something to straighten out.

[SnakeStrike8]

Siansonea II wrote...

That only works up to a point. How on earth would you restore a dead brain? There's only so much the magic wand of "science fiction" can push the envelope. Beyond a certain point, you have to say "Oh, come ON!"

Y'know, I bet people said that about the first heart transplant. Then they said it about having bacteria produce human insulin. Luddites, the lot of them!
What I'm more concerned about is what this will mean for the overall plot. There's going to be no point in slotting the Illusive Man if Bioware then says 'Y'remember that resurrection thing Shepard had? Yeah, the Illusive Man got that too. Surprise! Player choice is now rendered moot!'.
That'll get to me.