527 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

alperez wrote...
As for the Lockdown, yes they know what would force Shepard into a specific course of action 2 years previously, the problem though is that they also know that Shepard 2 years ago was not being influenced by outside interests, something this time round they're not sure of.

The cerberus factor changes things, 2 years ago they working alongside Shepard could see exactly what forced him into the choice he made and that he made that choice freely, now they not only don't know why he's making the choice but also if he's making the choice because its the right one or because he's being manipulated, duped, controlled into making that choice.

They don't know what the reasons are exactly for Shepard to be working with Cerbeurs, that's true.  And thus why I have no problem with them being suspicious that Cerberus may be using Shepard.  

But that wasn't the VS's original tack, it was "You betrayed the Alliance!"  That's most people's problem, I suspect.


Imagine, two years earlier, Shepard, the VS and Anderson, along with the rest of the Normandy crew, committed a treasonous act in stealiong the Normandy.  The VS was there every step of the way, and knew exactly why it was done and Shepard's response to the necessity.  

Two years later, Shepard has allied with Cerberus, another treasonous act.  Knowing what extreme measures it took for Shepard to steal the Normandy, why is the VS's reaction not  "Sh*t!  Is the galaxy ending again?" rather than "You traitor!"

"What if Cerberus is using you?" is a valid response.  the problem is it wasn't thier only, or even first response.

[Iakus]

jeweledleah wrote...

all VS has to go on is the fact that they have a tip that Cerberus is the one behind the colony dissapearances, they were told some disturbing rumors (probably the same ones that council has heard), and then Shepard shows up, with  cerberus vessel, CONFIRMING his/her association with Cerberus. and its not like Shepard gives any explanations, Shepard just goes - trust me! 

I'm thinking (hoping) that these rumors are the key to the VS's reaction to Shepard.  I really wish we had more details on what kind of rumors TIM had been spreading exactly.

[SnakeStrike8]

iakus wrote...
They don't know what the reasons are exactly for Shepard to be working with Cerbeurs, that's true.  And thus why I have no problem with them being suspicious that Cerberus may be using Shepard.  

But that wasn't the VS's original tack, it was "You betrayed the Alliance!"  That's most people's problem, I suspect.


Imagine, two years earlier, Shepard, the VS and Anderson, along with the rest of the Normandy crew, committed a treasonous act in stealiong the Normandy.  The VS was there every step of the way, and knew exactly why it was done and Shepard's response to the necessity.  

Two years later, Shepard has allied with Cerberus, another treasonous act.  Knowing what extreme measures it took for Shepard to steal the Normandy, why is the VS's reaction not  "Sh*t!  Is the galaxy ending again?" rather than "You traitor!"

"What if Cerberus is using you?" is a valid response.  the problem is it wasn't thier only, or even first response.

Couldn't agree with you more, mate. It's plausible to consider all this as an emotionally driven response, but really only if the VS was Shepard's LI. I can't seriously believe that Kaidan throws a fit if he sees Sheploo again. So your CO died. That happens. Now stop crying and listen, you sap!
But ignoring that, I thought that the e-mail that the Vs sends Shepard after the meeting was a nice touch. It was as if the VS had sat down after the adrenaline had worn off, considered what they said to Shepard, and totally regretted every word of it. But they don't want to admit it completely, so they send an apologetic e-mail out instead just so Shepard knows they didn't mean it.
Still, it's fair to say that this would have irrevocably damaged relations betwixt Shepard and the VS, and I dearly hope Bioware gives Shepard the option of roaring at the VS for not believing him. Ideally, I want the option to grab Kaidan or Ashely by the scruffs of their necks, throw them in the general direction of a mound of corpses that have been eaten by husks, and then ask- politely, mind you, not with any rage- if they still think Shepard-Commander was a traitor for nominally working with Cerberus.

[Iakus]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

Couldn't agree with you more, mate. It's plausible to consider all this as an emotionally driven response, but really only if the VS was Shepard's LI. I can't seriously believe that Kaidan throws a fit if he sees Sheploo again. So your CO died. That happens. Now stop crying and listen, you sap!
But ignoring that, I thought that the e-mail that the Vs sends Shepard after the meeting was a nice touch. It was as if the VS had sat down after the adrenaline had worn off, considered what they said to Shepard, and totally regretted every word of it. But they don't want to admit it completely, so they send an apologetic e-mail out instead just so Shepard knows they didn't mean it.
Still, it's fair to say that this would have irrevocably damaged relations betwixt Shepard and the VS, and I dearly hope Bioware gives Shepard the option of roaring at the VS for not believing him. Ideally, I want the option to grab Kaidan or Ashely by the scruffs of their necks, throw them in the general direction of a mound of corpses that have been eaten by husks, and then ask- politely, mind you, not with any rage- if they still think Shepard-Commander was a traitor for nominally working with Cerberus.

The letter was nice, if impersonal.  I would have preferred a second meeting where the VS and Shep could hash things out.  Perhaps on teh CItadel.  Letters can't compete with a voice.  Isn't that why silent protagonists have gone by the wayside?

Also, the letter only comes if the VS was the LI.  Anyone who was just friends with them is SOL.

[SnakeStrike8]

iakus wrote...

The letter was nice, if impersonal.  I would have preferred a second meeting where the VS and Shep could hash things out.  Perhaps on teh CItadel.  Letters can't compete with a voice.  Isn't that why silent protagonists have gone by the wayside?

Also, the letter only comes if the VS was the LI.  Anyone who was just friends with them is SOL.

A second meeting would have been overdoing it. By then, the VS has no more excuses to make, and the intent seemed to have been to keep them out of the crew for the second game. The letter, combined with the meeting, made that possible while at the same time giving players some conciliation that they loved characters from the previous game wasn't going to be tossed.
'Course, it didn't go over so well, but that's history. Let's hope we get the hashing out in ME 3.
But having said that, I doubt it. There hasn't been a single Casey Hudson interview, however long or short, in which he hasn't insisted that new gamers won't feel right at home starting with ME 3. Past experience tells me that Bioware wouldn't turn off the new crowd by including dialogue that relates to personal events from the first or second games.
Shae, really.

[alperez]

iakus wrote...


They don't know what the reasons are exactly for Shepard to be working with Cerbeurs, that's true.  And thus why I have no problem with them being suspicious that Cerberus may be using Shepard.  

But that wasn't the VS's original tack, it was "You betrayed the Alliance!"  That's most people's problem, I suspect.


Imagine, two years earlier, Shepard, the VS and Anderson, along with the rest of the Normandy crew, committed a treasonous act in stealiong the Normandy.  The VS was there every step of the way, and knew exactly why it was done and Shepard's response to the necessity.  

Two years later, Shepard has allied with Cerberus, another treasonous act.  Knowing what extreme measures it took for Shepard to steal the Normandy, why is the VS's reaction not  "Sh*t!  Is the galaxy ending again?" rather than "You traitor!"

"What if Cerberus is using you?" is a valid response.  the problem is it wasn't thier only, or even first response.

Dealing with the first part, "you betrayed the alliance", well technically working with cerberus that is exactly what Shepard is doing, the council may say it borders on treason, but they have the liberty to quantify exactly what treason may be, a soldier such as the VS wouldn't have the same luxury.

So they could term working with cerberus, an organistaion considered an enemy by both the council and the alliance (at least officially) as a direct act of treason

Dealing with the second point, why they react differently than they did when the normandy was taken.

2 reasons, the first being they were not there beside Shepard when he decided to join up with cerberus, they weren't privy to the reasoning used to make that choice, unlike the situation on the normandy where they had exactly the same understanding of events as Shepard did and could see exactly why the only course of action open was to steal the normandy.

The second reason is of course Cerberus themselves, the actions Shepard took in taking the normandy where his and his alone, no one was influencing him to make that choice, he did it completely of his own free will, the problem with the choice of working with cerberus is the nature of the organisation themselves and the lengths they will go to in order to acheive their goals.

Knowing this the VS cannot be sure either that the choice Shepard is making is of his own free will because Cerberus may have done something to him, or that he's making the right choice and not one based on misinformation provided by cerberus to convince him that the choice is right.

As i've said its a fait accompli that's presented to them, it would be the equivelent of asking them to go along with stealing the normandy seconds after they met Shepard, not having been to Eden Prime, Noveria, Feros, Virmire but simply having been posted to the normandy just before lockdown, then being told that the act of treason Shepard was about to commit was for the best reasons and to trust him, i'm sorry but no one in their right mind would have accepted it then, so why should they do so now?

[Iakus]

alperez wrote...

Dealing with the first part, "you betrayed the alliance", well technically working with cerberus that is exactly what Shepard is doing, the council may say it borders on treason, but they have the liberty to quantify exactly what treason may be, a soldier such as the VS wouldn't have the same luxury.

So they could term working with cerberus, an organistaion considered an enemy by both the council and the alliance (at least officially) as a direct act of treason

If we're talking about technicalities, so was stealing the Normandy.  My Shepard even said "I shouldn't even be wearing this uniform" afterwards.  And it was Ash telling Shepard that it had to be done, rather than accusing him of treason.  

The question isn't "was it treason?" technically or no, the question is "Why was this the first thing that pops into the VS's mind?"

Dealing with the second point, why they react differently than they did when the normandy was taken.

2 reasons, the first being they were not there beside Shepard when he decided to join up with cerberus, they weren't privy to the reasoning used to make that choice, unlike the situation on the normandy where they had exactly the same understanding of events as Shepard did and could see exactly why the only course of action open was to steal the normandy.

But stealing the Normandy demonstrates that this isn't an action that Shepard takes lightly.  Even if Shepard was wrong to ally with Cerberus, there must have been a compelling reason to do so.  But the VS makes no effort to learn those reasons before leaping to the "traitor" conclusion.  

The second reason is of course Cerberus themselves, the actions Shepard took in taking the normandy where his and his alone, no one was influencing him to make that choice, he did it completely of his own free will, the problem with the choice of working with cerberus is the nature of the organisation themselves and the lengths they will go to in order to acheive their goals.

Knowing this the VS cannot be sure either that the choice Shepard is making is of his own free will because Cerberus may have done something to him, or that he's making the right choice and not one based on misinformation provided by cerberus to convince him that the choice is right.

And like I said I have no problem with this line of reasoning.  But this was not the VS's first response.  It was "You turned your back on us!"  This is the sticking pont.  The VS seems to assume that Shepard is in fact acting on his or her own free will.  

As i've said its a fait accompli that's presented to them, it would be the equivelent of asking them to go along with stealing the normandy seconds after they met Shepard, not having been to Eden Prime, Noveria, Feros, Virmire but simply having been posted to the normandy just before lockdown, then being told that the act of treason Shepard was about to commit was for the best reasons and to trust him, i'm sorry but no one in their right mind would have accepted it then, so why should they do so now?

Because Ash and Kaidan have been to Eden Prime, Noveria, Feros, Virmire, and the lockdown.  plus possibly  Chasca, Ontarom  Binthu, and Nepheron.   They've seen Shepard in action, know what he's capable of, How he reacts under pressure.  And they certainly see what Shepard thinks of Cerberus.  Yes, Cerberus may now be manipulating Shepard now.  Perhaps they're playing on the Reaper threat.  Perhaps Shep's under some kind of compulsion, or acting under duress.  But that's not the same as being a traitor.  And that's the first conclusion they come to.  

I find that to be terrible writing.  It's not enough to destroy my trust in the VS, but it shakes my faith in the writers.  If I could I'd simply ignore the whole thing and pretend it didn't happen.  Unfortunately something of that magnitude cannot go unremarked in ME3.  I just hope that somehow it will come together in a way that makes sense.

Modifié par iakus, 29 octobre 2011 - 05:17 .

[Siansonea]

[quote]Yep glad we can agree that the VS faith in the alliance is misplaced. While Shepard's faith in collaberating with Cerberus is vindicated. Which is one of the strongest reason to why the VS should take Shepard seriously.[/quote]

WHAT?!

First: “The VS faith in the Alliance is misplaced”—The VS “faith” in the Alliance is irrelevant, they are an Alliance soldier, they are bound by duty and honor to DO WHAT THEY’RE TOLD. They have a mission, they do their mission to the best of their ability given what information they have access to. They don’t get to just switch sides because their onetime BFF decides to not be dead anymore.

Second: “Shepard’s faith in collaborating with Cerberus is vindicated”—Uh, no it’s not. All we know is that the Illusive Man successfully guided Shepard to laying the smack on the Collectors. Meanwhile, a much more immediate and larger threat to the ENTIRE galaxy was amassing on our doorstep—which Shepard DOESN’T find out from Cerberus, but from the ALLIANCE. You think the Illusive Man didn’t have some idea what was happening with Amanda Kenson? He sure seemed to know a LOT about what was going on in the Alliance, I wouldn’t be surprised if he had the dirt on the Reaper artifact and other goings-on related to that mission, including the possibility that the Reapers are amassing at the galaxy’s edge, getting close to a mass relay.

Third: “Which is one of the strongest reasons why the VS should take Shepard seriously”—DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND HOW TIME WORKS?! You can’t use the events that occur at the END of the game to justify events that occur in the MIDDLE of the game. The VS doesn’t have a crystal ball. You can’t say that the VS should have followed Shepard on Horizon, because LATER in the game Shepard’s mission appears to have been successful.

Oh, and guess what, Cerberus is the ENEMY in ME3, just like they were in ME1, so maybe it’s SHEPARD’S judgment that wasn’t operating properly.



[quote]If Shepard had been a faithful "alliance soldier" all people on horizon would have been dead. [/quote]

Actually, they’d all be alive. If Shepard wasn’t the Illusive Man’s b¡tch, the Illusive Man would have had no real reason to leak the info of the VS’ presence on Horizon to the Collectors, the trap only works if Shepard is the bait. And quite possibly, if Shepard had given Cerberus the finger and worked with the Alliance instead, Shepard might STILL have been able to recruit Mordin, STILL gotten the countermeasure, and worked WITH the VS to protect Horizon or whichever colony they were sent to. Remember, the only reason the VS was on Horizon in the first place was because CERBERUS leaked info to the Alliance that Horizon was the next to be attacked. Then, CERBERUS leaked the info that the VS was dispatched to Horizon to the Collectors, thereby CREATING the confrontation on Horizon, and dooming the colonists. “Acceptable losses” to the Illusive Man and every douchebag renegade wannabe who plays these games. But in reality, a “victory” at such a cost is not really much of a victory. After all, the Illusive Man’s whole purpose on Horizon was to “find out if the Collectors were interested in Shepard and people connected to Shepard”. For that little tidbit of info, for that pet theory of TIM’s, Lilith and the others were ruthlessly and callously sacrificed by the Illusive Man. By CERBERUS. Yes, the Collectors abducted the colonists, but the Illusive Man served them up on a silver platter.

[quote]You think that would have been some food for the VS thoughts.
Shepard knew about these things because Cerberus, the terrorists organisation has a superior leadership and a superior intelligence and chose better people for the mission. The alliance even denies the reapers are real, so its hardly surprising that they fail their responsiblity to protect human interest so massively. [/quote]

“The Alliance denies the Reapers are real”. Funny, every Alliance person I ran across in my playthroughs seems to believe the Reapers are a genuine threat. Anderson, Kaidan, Ashley, Hackett, they all seem to be right on board with Shepard where the Reapers are concerned. They might not be spouting it to every news outlet, but that’s probably to prevent a widespread panic. Now, the COUNCIL doesn’t seem to buy the Reaper threat, but they’ve been pretty far removed from most of the actual evidence about the Reapers, and I can easily see why they would conclude that Sovereign was just a really advanced geth starship. All they have is a bunch of wreckage.

No matter how you slice it, you’re not going to paint a picture that because Cerberus seems to have the better intelligence operatives, that they have sort of moral high ground. Seriously, WHATEVER.

[quote]Really why what could the VS say to shake Shepar's faith in his faith in Cerberus? . Come back to the alliance and take orders from clueless people and lets die together? His/her judgement is demonstratively superior to the VS.

[Siansonea]

Yezdigerd wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

And the thing about Tali is, even after she joins Shepard, she's still EXTREMELY hostile toward Cerberus. Cerberus is the bitterest of bitter pills for anyone to swallow, and yet people get highly pissed when Kaidan says "you betrayed everything we stood for"

Yes what is it you don't understand about this? Tali hates Cerberus but she overcome this because she realizes that is just one more reason Shepard needs his real friends to watch his back. She knows that nothing she can do for the flotilla is as important as helping Shepard fight the reapers, so "if the admirals don't like it, they can go to hell".
She rises and overcome her antipathy for the big picture while the the VS acts like petulant child.

How very simplistic. And how very Shepard-centric. Shepard isn't the center of the universe, and it's not a foregone conclusion that Shepard is the only one who can/should stop the Reapers. Seriously, Shepard's been dead for two years. How do you get from "Shepard's been dead for two years, we have to stop the Reapers without her" to "Shepard's the only one who can stop the Reapers, I have to drop everything I'm doing to help her out!" in the space of a five-minute conversation?

And never said Shepard was the only who could stop the reapers did I? It's just that I don't know any other force who makes a dedicated effort to oppose the reapers the VS could join, but perhaps you know something I don't.
the five minute conversation seemed to be the VS choice not Shepards and considering how futile the VS mission on Horizon was it doesn't seem the VS have anything better to do.

The VS chose to help Shepard steal the Normandy SR1 after a long mission WITH Shepard, after having been privy to the ENTIRE mission since Eden Prime. That's a lot different from seeing Shepard on Horizon two years after they "died" and Shepard snaps her fingers and expects the VS to heel like a lap dog. Does she think the VS has been just sitting around waiting for Shepard to magically be resurrected to continue the fight against the Reapers?

I agree betraying the alliance should come easier in the first game but the fact is that the VS did, which make abusing Shepard for doing so again hypocritical. From what we know from Horizon the VS sitting around waiting seems to be the case doesn't it? The VS has not the first idea about to handle the threat.

Obviously with Shepard dead, the people who believe in the Reaper threat had to soldier on without her, and it's not a foregone conclusion that with Shepard back in the picture she automatically becomes the renewed focus of those efforts. Shepard is just one soldier, a soldier with rather dubious connections at this point. Seriously, you don't seem to understand the realities of military operations, political situations, and interpersonal conflicts if this conflict comes down to "my friend Tali joined me, and you didn't, so I don't like you any more". Seriously, how old ARE you?

Sorry, you said something?

Wow, you sure seem to be making a LOT of assumptions about what's going on outside of Shepard's tiny piece of the puzzle. You seem to think everyone is just standing around, waiting for Shepard to activate them, but otherwise just doing nothing. You have NO idea what other preparations are in place, what other groups are pursuing where the Reapers are concerned, or what ANYONE outside of Shepard's narrow field of view is really up to. You just assume they all have "nothing better to do". Well, maybe Ashley and Kaidan's talents are better used elsewhere, rather than being just another flunky on the Cerberus Normandy. Don't assume. When you assume, you make an ass of you and—, well, just you really.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 29 octobre 2011 - 06:13 .

[Siansonea]

laecraft wrote...

Obviously with Shepard dead, the people who believe in the Reaper threat had to soldier on without her, and it's not a foregone conclusion that with Shepard back in the picture she automatically becomes the renewed focus of those efforts. Shepard is just one soldier, a soldier with rather dubious connections at this point. Seriously, you don't seem to understand the realities of military operations, political situations, and interpersonal conflicts if this conflict comes down to "my friend Tali joined me, and you didn't, so I don't like you any more". Seriously, how old ARE you?

In the end, this is exactly what it comes down to. In the midst of lack or intel, false intel, true intel, in the midst of all those political situations and in the middle of galactic war...Do you or do you not trust Shepard enough to fight by his side?

Everything else is irrelevant.

In a word: NO.

I don't trust Shepard as far as I can throw her. She's been "dead" for two years, or so we thought. Now she's on Horizon, coincidentally right after a colony abduction, flying the Cerberus flag. The Alliance said there was a connection between Cerberus and the colony abductions, and look at this, Cerberus is here during a colony abduction. Hmmmmm. SUSPICIOUS. Then Shepard says Cerberus has spent the last two years "rebuilding" her. Ooookaaaay. If I'm Ashley, I'm not buying it. Clearly, Shepard isn't the person I thought she was. The Shepard I knew would never work for the people who killed Admiral Kahoku, who got her fellow Marines killed on Akuze and Edolus. No, whoever this person is who's calling herself "Shepard" is somebody I don't think I ever really knew. And you know what? She was kind of a b¡tch to me back in the old days, so it's not like she and I were ever BFFs in the first place. Nope, she's just another traitor, who will get into bed with the most vile of people to accomplish whatever she thinks is important at that moment. Never mind that Shepard might not have all the facts.

And from a meta-perspective we know that she does NOT have all the facts—only what the Illusive Man wants her to know, so he can pull her strings however he wishes. The Illusive Man says go to Freedom's Progress, she goes to Freedom's Progress. The Illusive man says to recruit Mordin, she recruits Mordin. The Illusive man says to recruit "Archangel", she goes and gets Garrus. The Illusive man says recruit Jack, she goes to Purgatory and busts her out. The Illusive man says to recruit Warlord Okeer, she goes to Korlus and tries. The Illusive man says go to Horizon, she goes to Horizon. THEN she finds out the Illusive Man created that situation. And this doesn't give her pause? Nope! The Illusive man says recruit Thane, she goes to Illium and signs him up. The Illusive man says recruit Samara, she recruits Samara. The Illusive man says to recruit Tali, she reunites with her BFF. The Illusive Man says "hey there's this disabled Collector vessel, just sitting there in space, and she traipses aboard without a thought for treachery, only to discover that TIM KNEW it was a trap all along. Does this give her pause? NOPE! The Illusive man says "hey there's this Derelict Reaper that I could have told you about a LONG time ago but didn't", and she scampers off to clean up that mess, now that sh¡t has gotten real there. Then the Collectors attack the Normandy and scoop up everybody except Joker and Edi for Reaper Chow. The Illusive man says "OMG are you EVER going to go through the Omega 4 Relay, like, this century?", and off she skedaddles. And then, after Shepard has done EVERYTHING the Illusive Man has told her to do for the entire game, does she finally have the option to say "No, you can't have this base, Timmy Boy, so there!" Oh, you defiant minx, Shepard, I Guess You Told Him.

Shepard nonstop derps in service to a known terrorist throughout the entire game. But we're all supposed to assume that all "ally" characters in the first game canonically worship and adore the player character anyway, right? That the player character is always the center of everyone's universe? Not that DOES break my immersion. 

[Siansonea]

jreezy wrote...

rudenotginger wrote...

Actually, I trust the VS more than I trust Garrus, Tali or Liara because the VS showed that they are loyal to their convictions and won't just follow Shepard blindly no matter who s/he's affiliated with. They may not have come with Shepard in ME2, but they're fighting the good fight, and in the end, they'll always have his/her back. Plus, Horizon was mostly Shepard's fault. "How have you been?"?? Really??

Because that is not a normal thing to say to an acquaintance or friend you haven't seen in a long time? Riiiight.

Well, under the circumstances, it's NOT a normal thing to say. Let's put it in contemporary terms. Your acquaintance, a fellow Marine who has sworn the same oaths of service you have, who you thought was dead for two years, shows up unexpectedly at a crime scene, accompanied by members of a known drug cartel, all of whom are armed. Sure, it looks like some other drug cartel was responsible for the carnage at the crime scene, but it doesn't exactly look like the drug cartel is on the side of the angels either. Mind you, you and your fellow soldier once opposed this cartel she's with. You and your fellow soldier witnessed numerous murders and atrocities committed by this cartel. And she leads with "It's been a long time, how've you been?" Like you ran into each other at the food court at the local mall.  

[helenovision]

Skullheart wrote...

I don't trust in the VS because s/he was paralized a few feets away from Lilith and the collectors didn't take her/him. S/He could have been indoctrinated (a sleeper agent) and may betray us in ME3.

This is actually the best argument I've heard thus far as to why you may not be able to trust them, so kudos for that, Skullheart.  *claps*

[Rogue Unit]

Siansonea II wrote...

jreezy wrote...

rudenotginger wrote...

Actually, I trust the VS more than I trust Garrus, Tali or Liara because the VS showed that they are loyal to their convictions and won't just follow Shepard blindly no matter who s/he's affiliated with. They may not have come with Shepard in ME2, but they're fighting the good fight, and in the end, they'll always have his/her back. Plus, Horizon was mostly Shepard's fault. "How have you been?"?? Really??

Because that is not a normal thing to say to an acquaintance or friend you haven't seen in a long time? Riiiight.

Well, under the circumstances, it's NOT a normal thing to say. Let's put it in contemporary terms. Your acquaintance, a fellow Marine who has sworn the same oaths of service you have, who you thought was dead for two years, shows up unexpectedly at a crime scene, accompanied by members of a known drug cartel, all of whom are armed. Sure, it looks like some other drug cartel was responsible for the carnage at the crime scene, but it doesn't exactly look like the drug cartel is on the side of the angels either. Mind you, you and your fellow soldier once opposed this cartel she's with. You and your fellow soldier witnessed numerous murders and atrocities committed by this cartel. And she leads with "It's been a long time, how've you been?" Like you ran into each other at the food court at the local mall.  

I haven't play the Virmire scene in while but "How have you been" isn't all Shepard says. IRRC Shepard does have the optional to explain where he/she has been. He doesn't flat-out say he died, he says he "nearly died" at that Cerberus helped get him walking again. He also can explain that the Collectors are agents of the Reapers and why Cerberus was his only option if he/she wants to stop them.

I'm not arguing in favor or against the VS actions, I'm just sick of people saying "OMG Shepard was such a derp on Horizon all he says is ' Sup, Alliance. Miss me? Roflolololo'" And that isn't the case.

I'll see if I have a save near that point, but I'm sure Shepard has the optional of explaining where he was and why he helping Cerberus fight the Collectors even if he was a bit vague.

Modifié par Rogue Unit, 29 octobre 2011 - 08:05 .

[Sasie]

Found this on youtube.


Some the paragon/neutral options are better then the others but the opening greeting of
"It's been too long Kaidan, How you been?" is the most stupid thing Shepard could possibly have said and I'm surprised Kaidan doesn't snap at her more for that. Shepard's excuse for it is very weak as well. A better option would be to tell him what Kaidan told her. That we been on the citadel, that we did talk to Anderson but just like him we where stonewalled and got nothing.

I also like to point out that the Illusive man did manipulate Shepard so Kaidan was more or less right about that too. Everything we do in ME2 is because the Illusive man wants it done except perhaps the end. He spread rumors about Shepard to seperate her from the alliance and her friend, he got her to jump on his command and not notifying the alliance because he want Cerberus to get to Horizon first, he was also responsible for the Collectors arriving there in the first place by putting out the word that Kaidan was stationed there. Not to mention the trap of the collector ship. 

On top of that no matter what people might think the Normandy 2.0 was his ship and never Shepard's. It's filled with his crew and his people and enough survailence to leave Shepard with few real choices of her own Even if we can turn things around in the last minute doesn't change the fact that we spend the majority of the game being manipulated by Tim. Beyond that we shouldn't forget that Shepard signed up with Cerberus before getting in contact with the Alliance or the citadel. So even if Anderson support Shepard she didn't have his support when she made the choice. Should also note that even Anderson doesn't trust her fully and refuse to reveal pretty much anything he knows as long as she is working for the enemy.

Modifié par Sasie, 29 octobre 2011 - 09:58 .

[Sasie]

jreezy wrote...

Sasie wrote...
Even if we can turn things around in the last minute doesn't change the fact that we spend the majority of the game being manipulated by Tim. Beyond that we shouldn't forget that Shepard signed up with Cerberus before getting in contact with the Alliance or the citadel. So even if Anderson support Shepard she didn't have his support when she made the choice. Should also note that even Anderson doesn't trust her fully and refuse to reveal pretty much anything he knows as long as she is working for the enemy.

Um...We? Speak for yourself, my Shepards weren't manipulated by anyone.

All Shepar's share certain traits and all of them jump when Tim snaps his fingers. No way around that, so that makes us either a willing participater, Cerberus supporter or someone who get more or less pulled along for the ride. Yes we can show small signs of defiance at times but for 90% of the game Shepard won't do a thing if Tim says no. Could also add the parts where Shepard no matter what options will defend Cerberus or at least claim that they are not "that" bad.

Now beyond all that the fact remains that Tim is responsible for alienating the Alliance and the Council from trusting Shepard because of rumors he spread out months before we even get ressurected, he also controls the information flow and Shepard's moment options, on top of that every soldier on the Normandy was handpicked by him personally and plenty of them report to him openly behind Shepard's back without him/her having any control or even an idea of what is being said. He also picked a secretary that sort through our mails. None of this we can change I might add.

Tim might claim he is the only one doing anything but as Horizon and Arrival show even that was a lie and it's very possible Shepard could have done more if she had turned to the alliance without Cerberus interference.

[Yezdigerd]

[quote]Siansonea II wrote...

[quote]Yep glad we can agree that the VS faith in the alliance is misplaced. While Shepard's faith in collaberating with Cerberus is vindicated. Which is one of the strongest reason to why the VS should take Shepard seriously.[/quote]

WHAT?!

First: “The VS faith in the Alliance is misplaced”—The VS “faith” in the Alliance is irrelevant, they are an Alliance soldier, they are bound by duty and honor to DO WHAT THEY’RE TOLD. [/quote]

No it is obviously highly relevant. they were as bound by duty and honor to DO WHAT THEY’RE TOLD in ME1 as well. Yet they chose to violate their oath to the alliance because they believed their superior was making fatal misstakes. 
And on Horizon Shepard again demonstrates he is on the ball, while the alliance command again are clueless

[quote]Second: “Shepard’s faith in collaborating with Cerberus is vindicated”—Uh, no it’s not. All we know is that the Illusive Man successfully guided Shepard to laying the smack on the Collectors. Meanwhile, a much more immediate and larger threat to the ENTIRE galaxy was amassing on our doorstep—which Shepard DOESN’T find out from Cerberus, but from the ALLIANCE. You think the Illusive Man didn’t have some idea what was happening with Amanda Kenson?[/quote]

Well I like to imagine the entire Arrival arch happened after the Suicide mission, since it makes the entire plot of ME2  irrelevant and the story stupidly pointless. Besides if the alliance knows these things why not tell Shepard? Why not tell the Galaxy? We have undisputable proof the reapers are coming but we don't bring it to the Council? All tax money should be poured into building a war machine yet the citizens of the alliance aren't even made aware of the threat.
And the despite knowing this they put Shepard on trial.

Arrival is so stupid that I like not to think about it.


[quote]Third: “Which is one of the strongest reasons why the VS should take Shepard seriously”—DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND HOW TIME WORKS?! You can’t use the events that occur at the END of the game to justify events that occur in the MIDDLE of the game. The VS doesn’t have a crystal ball. You can’t say that the VS should have followed Shepard on Horizon, because LATER in the game Shepard’s mission appears to have been successful. [/quote]

And I'm not saying that, I'm amazed by your ability to adress points I didn't make. What I am saying is that the VS been assigned to investigate collector attacks on human colonies and Cerberus possible involvement. Their offical capacity seems to ready the colonies against attack. And their mission fails utterly. They don't know about the seeker swarms because their intelligence has failed. They are woefully unprepared with some cannons which don't work. It even makes me wonder if the alliance just sent the VS as a token gesture to show that they "cared".
And Shepard and his terrorist associates swops down prepared, knowing the threat, with resources to deal with the problem, saving the VS and colonists friends from turning into reapergoo. The ordinary human response would be relief and gratitude. Just like on Ilos Shepard goes his own way, and here and again demonstrates he is better at dealing with the collectors then the alliance. These are the facts the VS have in the present. Regardless of the VS "trust" for Cerberus. You would think the VS would at least hear Shepard out before ranting and raving about betrayal, against those who actually protected human interests.


[quote]Oh, and guess what, Cerberus is the ENEMY in ME3, just like they were in ME1, so maybe it’s SHEPARD’S judgment that wasn’t operating properly. [/quote]

Well in the game trailer Shepard claims they are indoctrinated. Which can happen to anyone regardless of how justifed your trust in them are. And what someone might do in the future doesn't change here and now. Shepard as ample opportunity to express that his association with Cerberus is a marriage of convinience and the he mistrust and loathe them. But even if Cerberus mainly burns kittens alive, is it really such a inconcievable thing that they want to oppose the reapers whose goal is to destroy all sentient life?


[quote]If Shepard had been a faithful "alliance soldier" all people on horizon would have been dead. [/quote]

[quote]Actually, they’d all be alive. If Shepard wasn’t the Illusive Man’s b¡tch, the Illusive Man would have had no real reason to leak the info of the VS’ presence on Horizon to the Collectors, the trap only works if Shepard is the bait.[/quote]

You don't know that. They could have hit Horizon anyway. And as TIM says if not Horizon, another planet would have, you can just as well blame the VS for endangering Horizon since they went there as a known Shepard associate.


[quote]And quite possibly, if Shepard had given Cerberus the finger and worked with the Alliance instead, Shepard might STILL have been able to recruit Mordin, STILL gotten the countermeasure, and worked WITH the VS to protect Horizon or whichever colony they were sent to. [/quote]

I agree the game makes a poor job of explaining why Shepard turns away from the Council and Alliance with his findings. I guess we just are meant assume that the alliance, as the Council actively discourage people concerned about the the reaper threat. (See Gabby and Ken)  but anyway that Shepard could have accomplished this without Cerberus is not an excuse for why the Alliance failed to do so.


[quote]Remember, the only reason the VS was on Horizon in the first place was because CERBERUS leaked info to the Alliance that Horizon was the next to be attacked. Then, CERBERUS leaked the info that the VS was dispatched to Horizon to the Collectors, thereby CREATING the confrontation on Horizon, and dooming the colonists. “Acceptable losses” to the Illusive Man and every douchebag renegade wannabe who plays these games. But in reality, a “victory” at such a cost is not really much of a victory. After all, the Illusive Man’s whole purpose on Horizon was to “find out if the Collectors were interested in Shepard and people connected to Shepard”. For that little tidbit of info, for that pet theory of TIM’s, Lilith and the others were ruthlessly and callously sacrificed by the Illusive Man. By CERBERUS. Yes, the Collectors abducted the colonists, but the Illusive Man served them up on a silver platter.[/quote]

Giving that the only alternative seems to be letting the Collectors attack human collectors with impunity, any sane person would prefer TIM's call. I mean it's not like he sent a single soldier to a colony against an enemy he didn't know the first thing about with some artillery pieces that didn't work.

[quote]“The Alliance denies the Reapers are real”. Funny, every Alliance person I ran across in my playthroughs seems to believe the Reapers are a genuine threat. Anderson, Kaidan, Ashley, Hackett, they all seem to be right on board with Shepard where the Reapers are concerned. [/quote]

Yes but they are obviously are exceptions not calling the shots. Anderson, the VS, and Hackett are 3 people. Listen to Gabby and Ken raging about how the alliance brass silenced and ignored those who spoke up against the reaper threat.

[quote]No matter how you slice it, you’re not going to paint a picture that because Cerberus seems to have the better intelligence operatives, that they have sort of moral high ground. Seriously, WHATEVER.[/quote]

On Horizon Cerberus demonstrates ability to deal with the collector menance, while the Alliance efforst borders on criminally neglectful. Those are the facts.

[Yezdigerd]

mllrthyme wrote...

^ This. Exactly. And yes, "how've you been," is probably not the best question for Shep to ask when the VS thought they were DEAD for 2 years. It's a total headdesk moment.

Which is why I always chose the neutral response, Anyway it's not unusual that people under great emotional stress resort to empty social platitudes.

[Yezdigerd]

Chun Hei wrote...

Liara needs someone to hack terminals for her and does not go on a mission to save the galaxy from extinction because she wants to kill someone before the Reapers eventually will. Tali wants information on a a dying sun that an extinct Quarian race will never have a chance to use when the Reapers show up. Garrus really never has a choice though I am sure in his case he probably would have joined anyway.

I am not hard on those characters because I believe the writers just had to find clumsy ways to get Shepard sidetracked from saving the galaxy to solve their personal problems. That is why I do not get worked up over the Horizon situation since Bioware said they did not want the VS or Liara in the suicide mission and force them to come up with some silly reason why they were the only characters who cannot die.

The task isn't to stop a reaper invasion, it's to protect human colonies from Collector attacks, a species that might be associated with the reapers. For all the NPC knows the reapers might not appear in their livetimes. That people with urgent bussiness doesn't drop it at once makes perfect sense. Actually the VS should have more vested interest in the protection of human colonies then Tali, Liara or Garrus.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 29 octobre 2011 - 01:04 .

[Xilizhra]

Second: “Shepard’s faith in collaborating with Cerberus is vindicated”—Uh, no it’s not. All we know is that the Illusive Man successfully guided Shepard to laying the smack on the Collectors. Meanwhile, a much more immediate and larger threat to the ENTIRE galaxy was amassing on our doorstep—which Shepard DOESN’T find out from Cerberus, but from the ALLIANCE. You think the Illusive Man didn’t have some idea what was happening with Amanda Kenson? He sure seemed to know a LOT about what was going on in the Alliance, I wouldn’t be surprised if he had the dirt on the Reaper artifact and other goings-on related to that mission, including the possibility that the Reapers are amassing at the galaxy’s edge, getting close to a mass relay.

I admit, Shepard did need Cerberus' ship to actually make it into the Bahak system.

After all, the Illusive Man’s whole purpose on Horizon was to “find out if the Collectors were interested in Shepard and people connected to Shepard”. For that little tidbit of info, for that pet theory of TIM’s, Lilith and the others were ruthlessly and callously sacrificed by the Illusive Man. By CERBERUS. Yes, the Collectors abducted the colonists, but the Illusive Man served them up on a silver platter.

How would you have ensured that the Collectors didn't hit another planet, worse?

[Yezdigerd]

Siansonea II wrote...

Yezdigerd wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

And the thing about Tali is, even after she joins Shepard, she's still EXTREMELY hostile toward Cerberus. Cerberus is the bitterest of bitter pills for anyone to swallow, and yet people get highly pissed when Kaidan says "you betrayed everything we stood for"

Yes what is it you don't understand about this? Tali hates Cerberus but she overcome this because she realizes that is just one more reason Shepard needs his real friends to watch his back. She knows that nothing she can do for the flotilla is as important as helping Shepard fight the reapers, so "if the admirals don't like it, they can go to hell".
She rises and overcome her antipathy for the big picture while the the VS acts like petulant child.

How very simplistic. And how very Shepard-centric. Shepard isn't the center of the universe, and it's not a foregone conclusion that Shepard is the only one who can/should stop the Reapers. Seriously, Shepard's been dead for two years. How do you get from "Shepard's been dead for two years, we have to stop the Reapers without her" to "Shepard's the only one who can stop the Reapers, I have to drop everything I'm doing to help her out!" in the space of a five-minute conversation?

And never said Shepard was the only who could stop the reapers did I? It's just that I don't know any other force who makes a dedicated effort to oppose the reapers the VS could join, but perhaps you know something I don't.
the five minute conversation seemed to be the VS choice not Shepards and considering how futile the VS mission on Horizon was it doesn't seem the VS have anything better to do.

The VS chose to help Shepard steal the Normandy SR1 after a long mission WITH Shepard, after having been privy to the ENTIRE mission since Eden Prime. That's a lot different from seeing Shepard on Horizon two years after they "died" and Shepard snaps her fingers and expects the VS to heel like a lap dog. Does she think the VS has been just sitting around waiting for Shepard to magically be resurrected to continue the fight against the Reapers?

I agree betraying the alliance should come easier in the first game but the fact is that the VS did, which make abusing Shepard for doing so again hypocritical. From what we know from Horizon the VS sitting around waiting seems to be the case doesn't it? The VS has not the first idea about to handle the threat.

Obviously with Shepard dead, the people who believe in the Reaper threat had to soldier on without her, and it's not a foregone conclusion that with Shepard back in the picture she automatically becomes the renewed focus of those efforts. Shepard is just one soldier, a soldier with rather dubious connections at this point. Seriously, you don't seem to understand the realities of military operations, political situations, and interpersonal conflicts if this conflict comes down to "my friend Tali joined me, and you didn't, so I don't like you any more". Seriously, how old ARE you?

Sorry, you said something?

Wow, you sure seem to be making a LOT of assumptions about what's going on outside of Shepard's tiny piece of the puzzle. You seem to think everyone is just standing around, waiting for Shepard to activate them, but otherwise just doing nothing. You have NO idea what other preparations are in place, what other groups are pursuing where the Reapers are concerned, or what ANYONE outside of Shepard's narrow field of view is really up to. You just assume they all have "nothing better to do". Well, maybe Ashley and Kaidan's talents are better used elsewhere, rather than being just another flunky on the Cerberus Normandy. Don't assume. When you assume, you make an ass of you and—, well, just you really.

I make assumptions based on the game, you chose not to adress any point I made. If the VS and superiors has a workable masterplan to defeat reapers. What are the VS doing stumbling around getting him/herself killed for nothing on Horizon?
Was the VS planning on being captured?

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 29 octobre 2011 - 01:35 .

[Siansonea]

Yezdigerd wrote...
*snip*
No it is obviously highly relevant. they were as bound by duty and honor to DO WHAT THEY’RE TOLD in ME1 as well. Yet they chose to violate their oath to the alliance because they believed their superior was making fatal misstakes.  
And on Horizon Shepard again demonstrates he is on the ball, while the alliance command again are clueless

You're right about one thing, Alliance command dropped the ball on Horizon, the VS did the best they could with what they were given. The failure of the mission on Horizon was not the VS, fault, and Shepard saving the day only proves that because of the pissing contest between the Alliance and Cerberus, and the fact that the Illusive Man is a much better intelligence operative, innocent people on Horizon are caught in the middle and many are killed. Because the Illusive Man wants to do everything HIS way. We have no idea what other ways to stop the Collectors there could have been, because all of the strategic thinking was done by the Illusive Man, an amoral megalomaniac.


Here's an idea: Let's lure the Collectors to Horizon, just like TIM did. Except, let's have all the colonists ALREADY in safehouses, or hardsuits, or what have you. Let's wait to leak the info about the VS to the Collectors until AFTER Mordin's seeker swarm countermeasure is up and running. What if Mordin's countermeasuer WASN'T ready yet? TIM's entire plan would have failed, because Shepard's squad would not have been able to engage the Collectors on Horizon. But because TIM doesn't care about the colonist, they are given no warning and no protection by the one person who COULD have given them that warning: The Illusive Man. Among those pureed colonists could have been the next Einstein or Hawking, but now they're a Reaper smoothie.

*snip*
Well I like to imagine the entire Arrival arch happened after the Suicide mission, since it makes the entire plot of ME2  irrelevant and the story stupidly pointless. Besides if the alliance knows these things why not tell Shepard? Why not tell the Galaxy? We have undisputable proof the reapers are coming but we don't bring it to the Council? All tax money should be poured into building a war machine yet the citizens of the alliance aren't even made aware of the threat.
And the despite knowing this they put Shepard on trial.

I'd put her on trial too. She's got a LOT of explaining to do. Unlike a person playing Mass Effect 2, your average person didn't witness the events of the game, only saw the effects of Shepard's actions. Or rather, some of them. Everything that happened beyond the Omega 4 relay is only known to the surviving crew of the Normandy SR2. Shepard has left a huge path of destruction in her wake, and it's not really clear what she's doing. Now 300,000 batarians are dead, seemingly because of her actions, and war with the batarians is imminent, seemingly because of Shepard. I think a trial is a good way to get the debrief on what the hell she was doing out there. Time to throw Hackett under the bus. 

Arrival is so stupid that I like not to think about it.

No arguments here, but it's in the game, it's part of the story. 

*snip*
And I'm not saying that, I'm amazed by your ability to adress points I didn't make. What I am saying is that the VS been assigned to investigate collector attacks on human colonies and Cerberus possible involvement. Their offical capacity seems to ready the colonies against attack. And their mission fails utterly. They don't know about the seeker swarms because their intelligence has failed. They are woefully unprepared with some cannons which don't work. It even makes me wonder if the alliance just sent the VS as a token gesture to show that they "cared".

As I said above, the failure of the mission on Horizon is not the VS' fault, it's Anderson's and TIM's fault. Both of them had information that was vital to the success of the mission on Horizon, and both withheld that information from the VS. I have no idea why Anderson didn't tell the VS about Shepard being alive and with Cerberus, it wasn't exactly a secret. That makes NO sense. Of course the Illusive Man isn't going to give the colony on Horizon a fighting chance, he wants it to look like easy pickin's for the Collectors, and damn the consequences if his theory is wrong. Gambling with other people's lives must be fun for him, I guess.

And Shepard and his terrorist associates swops down prepared, knowing the threat, with resources to deal with the problem, saving the VS and colonists friends from turning into reapergoo. The ordinary human response would be relief and gratitude. Just like on Ilos Shepard goes his own way, and here and again demonstrates he is better at dealing with the collectors then the alliance. These are the facts the VS have in the present. Regardless of the VS "trust" for Cerberus. You would think the VS would at least hear Shepard out before ranting and raving about betrayal, against those who actually protected human interests.

You have a different idea of "ranting and raving" than I do. The only person in ME2 who ever "rants and raves" is Jack. The VS calls Shepard out on the fact that she's alive and didn't initiate contact, and then when Cerberus is mentioned, the whole focus of the conversation turns to that. Because it's a BIG DEAL. Did you not play the first game? Shepard working with Cerberus isn't just a questionable moral choice, it's a betrayal of everything the Alliance stands for. It's spitting on the grave of every Alliance soldier who has been murdered by Cerberus. Maybe you've never met real-life soldiers, but they take that sh¡t SERIOUSLY.

*snip*
Well in the game trailer Shepard claims they are indoctrinated. Which can happen to anyone regardless of how justifed your trust in them are. And what someone might do in the future doesn't change here and now. Shepard as ample opportunity to express that his association with Cerberus is a marriage of convinience and the he mistrust and loathe them. But even if Cerberus mainly burns kittens alive, is it really such a inconcievable thing that they want to oppose the reapers whose goal is to destroy all sentient life?

With friends like that, who needs enemies?

*snip*
You don't know that. They could have hit Horizon anyway. And as TIM says if not Horizon, another planet would have, you can just as well blame the VS for endangering Horizon since they went there as a known Shepard associate.

How can I blame the VS, when they are completely in the dark about the situation? TIM is the one who had the hypothesis, and Horizon was just his elaborate test to prove it. The VS was a pawn in that plan. How is ANY of it the VS' fault? Was the VS supposed to have some magical crystal ball that could foretell events and give him/her all the information that everyone else is withholding? 

*snip*
I agree the game makes a poor job of explaining why Shepard turns away from the Council and Alliance with his findings. I guess we just are meant assume that the alliance, as the Council actively discourage people concerned about the the reaper threat. (See Gabby and Ken)  but anyway that Shepard could have accomplished this without Cerberus is not an excuse for why the Alliance failed to do so.

Well, I agree that the Alliance needs to take its lumps for not doing all it could to stop the Collectors, but to be fair, Horizon and the other colonies were outside of Alliance space and actively rejected Alliance help. You can't help people against their will. Colonies like Horizon exist for humans who don't want to live under Alliance authority and jurisdiction. So from a legal standpoint, there's not a whole lot the Alliance can do. 

*snip*
Giving that the only alternative seems to be letting the Collectors attack human collectors with impunity, any sane person would prefer TIM's call. I mean it's not like he sent a single soldier to a colony against an enemy he didn't know the first thing about with some artillery pieces that didn't work.

The key phrase here is "the only alternative SEEMS to be..." The truth is, we don't know what the alternatives would have, could have, should have been. Because the person with all the intel, the Illusive Man, wasn't sharing. I gave some alternatives above that would have accomplished the mission AND saved the colonists. The Illusive Man simply didn't care enough about those individuals to even TRY to save them, even though HE was putting them in danger in the first place.

*snip*
Yes but they are obviously are exceptions not calling the shots. Anderson, the VS, and Hackett are 3 people. Listen to Gabby and Ken raging about how the alliance brass silenced and ignored those who spoke up against the reaper threat.
*snip*
On Horizon Cerberus demonstrates ability to deal with the collector menance, while the Alliance efforst borders on criminally neglectful. Those are the facts.

That sounds suspiciously like "might makes right". Cerberus is a rogue organization, and of course they can operate anywhere. The Alliance is a legally recognized authority, and there are limits to their ability to act that have nothing to do with intel or resources. The Alliance can't just steamroll over human colonies outside of Alliance space. The Alliance is not "all of humanity", they are just one human government. While they might feel a responsibility toward other humans outside of their sphere of influence, they can't just do whatever they want, in violation of those other humans' wishes. 


I don't think you realize how dangerous the implications of your pro-Cerberus rhetoric is. You're basically saying that innocent human lives can be gambled and lost on the hunch of one man, a criminal man, and if the man's theory is proven, then it was an acceptable loss. And that just because this criminal has information the rest of us don't, he gets to decide who lives and who dies. That's like letting the warlord of a drug cartel call the shots in world politics, because he has info about a dangerous new weapon that's threatening humanity. Uh, NO.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 29 octobre 2011 - 04:40 .

[General User]

Obviously a major military campaign in the Terminus is no small matter. It's just that anything that makes a business of completely depopulating human colonies, like the Collectors, is almost certainly a threat to the Alliance itself.

With that in mind, the Alliance has an absolute obligation to investigate the threat and, depending on their findings, they may not only have the right to intervene but the obligation to do so. With regards to independent colonies that could mean anything from a temporary occupation, to forcing them to accept protectorate status, to outright annexation.

Of course since, as of Horizon, the Alliance never got past step one, and the crisis was resolved before any major decisions were made, it's impossible to say how far it would ultimately have gone.