527 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

ladyvader wrote...

iakus wrote...

ladyvader wrote...

Liara is more devoted to Shepard, in my view, than the VS is. 

Perhaps.  But we don't know what the VS has been doing for the last two years.  They could very well have been working with Anderson to try and prepare for the Reaper invasion.

For some reason, I highly doubt it.  Especially from their comments on Horizon.  

And even if that is the case, it still has nothing to do with being devoted to Shepard.  

I dunno.

Liara knew exactly how Cerberus and Shepard were connected.

The VS assumed Shepard died in the Collector atack.

Both may have been trying to carry on Shepard's fight:  Liara by going after the Shadow Broker, the Collectors' ally.  The VS by trying to convince the Allilance of the danger.  DIfferent fronts.  Same war.  Both inspired by Shepard.

[SandTrout]

The only ones I don't trust post-horizon are the writers.

[alperez]

iakus wrote...

Liara knew exactly how Cerberus and Shepard were connected.

The VS assumed Shepard died in the Collector atack.

Both may have been trying to carry on Shepard's fight:  Liara by going after the Shadow Broker, the Collectors' ally.  The VS by trying to convince the Allilance of the danger.  DIfferent fronts.  Same war.  Both inspired by Shepard.

This again shows why you can't really compare how Liara reacted to Shepard and how the VS did, even if in both situations they were romanced. Liara knows exactly what occured with Shepard, she gave his body to Cerberus for the express purpose of trying to bring him back, so when he returns alive she doesn't feel the betrayal that the VS does because she's aware of certain relevant info.

The VS believed Shepard died, so seeing him alive calls into question first that belief (along with no one ever returning from the dead in mass effect previously and no knowledge of cerberus's lazurus project) which then calls into question just exactly what occured on the normandy and what's occured since, leaving unfortunately a feeling that Shepard's being alive all this time and has therfore betrayed the relationship and the VS themselves, by not letting the VS know or trying to contact them until now.

As for the second part both of them trying to continue Shepard's work, well i kinda disagree a little, since that's not actually Liara's main reason in going after the Shadow Broker, her reason seems to be revenge rather than by getting to the SB she'll somehow be helping continue the fight Shepard started.

The VS is a slightly different proposition, considering we know they become Spectres you could argue that this is an extension of Shepards work and that they're using one of the key lessons they may have learned from working alongside Shepard, which is being a spectre gives them a much better chance of not being sidelined like the rest of Shepard's crew was.

Actually in my head canon, i've always assumed this was one of Anderson's last acts as councillor, that for the past 2 years he's been building the VS up to replace Shepard and now even with Shepard's return he's throwing the dice for the last time, using the last bit of influence he has to prepare the groundwork for the reapers, making the VS a spectre gives him and Shepard a bit more leeway in terms of stopping the reapers imo.

[Iakus]

[quote]alperez wrote...

As for the second part both of them trying to continue Shepard's work, well i kinda disagree a little, since that's not actually Liara's main reason in going after the Shadow Broker, her reason seems to be revenge rather than by getting to the SB she'll somehow be helping continue the fight Shepard started.[/quote]

Feron's capture might have made it personal for Liara, but I suspect she would have continued her pursuit of the Shadow Broker after getting Shepard's body back regardless.  Keep in mind, she was the only other person alive with the Prothean beacon visions.  Well, aside from Manuel   She knows the stakes better than anyone.
[/quote]

[Ryzaki]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

I don't think Liara's more devoted, she was the only one willing to work with Cerberus. could you imagine TIM trying to ask Ashley of all people to help with Shepard? She'd have put shepard ina grave raher than ahve them in debt to cerberus. That beig said I don't think anyone one Love interest is more devoted than the next or else there'd be fights over who deserves Shepard and that's unbecoming of people in their 30's and 40's (and their hundreds for both Asari that serve under Shepard)

I think you mean 20s and 30s; there are several LIs in their 20s, and none in their 40s (well, maybe Thane, I'm not sure). And how do you know there won't be fights over who deserves Shepard?

If any of the LIs get into a fight over my Shep I want an option to dump them right then and there for being a child. 

Seriously that's just a major turn off. What are then teenagers? 

[alperez]

iakus wrote...

Feron's capture might have made it personal for Liara, but I suspect she would have continued her pursuit of the Shadow Broker after getting Shepard's body back regardless.  Keep in mind, she was the only other person alive with the Prothean beacon visions.  Well, aside from Manuel   She knows the stakes better than anyone.

That's completely true and is also once again an example of bad writing imo, at no point during either your meeting on Illium, the comics or LOSB (well apart from the end) does it come across that Liara has any other motivation in going after the SB other than Feron and revenge.

It's one of the things that i consider a huge facepalm regarding Liara's character because like you've just put it here i could have been totally on board with her going after the SB for the reasons you put as well as the revenge and Feron angles.

Thankfully though its an rpg, so we can head canon certain actions and motivations not just to Shepard but to other characters as well.

[Iakus]

alperez wrote...

iakus wrote...

Feron's capture might have made it personal for Liara, but I suspect she would have continued her pursuit of the Shadow Broker after getting Shepard's body back regardless.  Keep in mind, she was the only other person alive with the Prothean beacon visions.  Well, aside from Manuel   She knows the stakes better than anyone.

That's completely true and is also once again an example of bad writing imo, at no point during either your meeting on Illium, the comics or LOSB (well apart from the end) does it come across that Liara has any other motivation in going after the SB other than Feron and revenge.

It's one of the things that i consider a huge facepalm regarding Liara's character because like you've just put it here i could have been totally on board with her going after the SB for the reasons you put as well as the revenge and Feron angles.

Thankfully though its an rpg, so we can head canon certain actions and motivations not just to Shepard but to other characters as well.

That's why I headdesked so much that Liara's "I couldn't let you go" speech was so easy to miss.  It was the only clue you get pre LOTSB why she was so obsessed with the Shadow Broker.   WIth that, and the DLC, I can far more easily justify her actions.

And that's why I think the VS needed so much more than just a letter. 

[alperez]

iakus wrote...

That's why I headdesked so much that Liara's "I couldn't let you go" speech was so easy to miss.  It was the only clue you get pre LOTSB why she was so obsessed with the Shadow Broker.   WIth that, and the DLC, I can far more easily justify her actions.

And that's why I think the VS needed so much more than just a letter.

I know exactly what you mean, i missed it myself the first time i played through a Liara romanced playthrough, it was only when i came on here i saw someone talking about it in a thread and replayed and it does give a different sense of just exactly what she was thinking, but unlike the feron/revenge lines it can be missed.

As for the e-mail, defintely needed much more than that *coughs dlc equivelent to LOSB* but hopefully it'll be rectified during me3 somewhat and hopefully within moments of the reunion itself.

[Iakus]

alperez wrote...

I know exactly what you mean, i missed it myself the first time i played through a Liara romanced playthrough, it was only when i came on here i saw someone talking about it in a thread and replayed and it does give a different sense of just exactly what she was thinking, but unlike the feron/revenge lines it can be missed.

As for the e-mail, defintely needed much more than that *coughs dlc equivelent to LOSB* but hopefully it'll be rectified during me3 somewhat and hopefully within moments of the reunion itself.

That's the biggest problem with Horizon.  For all the excuses we can give for or against the VS's action, we don't really know anything.   Cerberus rumors, found someone else, coercison, out of control emotions, blinded by loyalty, it's all just theories and rumors.  WIth Liara the evidence is laid out for us, even if it's either hard to find or costs us extra.  WIth the VS, until ME3 comes out, we just have to head-canon it.  

WHich leads to the speculation:  What would it take  to rebuild the trust between them?

[alperez]

iakus wrote...

That's the biggest problem with Horizon.  For all the excuses we can give for or against the VS's action, we don't really know anything.   Cerberus rumors, found someone else, coercison, out of control emotions, blinded by loyalty, it's all just theories and rumors.  WIth Liara the evidence is laid out for us, even if it's either hard to find or costs us extra.  WIth the VS, until ME3 comes out, we just have to head-canon it.  

WHich leads to the speculation:  What would it take  to rebuild the trust between them?

Thats a big problem with the scene definetly (bad writing also doesn't help).

As for what it will take to rebuild the trust, the problem is that it really depends on which side of the fence you come down to over Horizon.

If like me you can understand the VS's reasoning behind why they acted how they did and can see why its justifiable then the e-mail goes a long way to rebuilding that trust, after that pretty much some explanation regarding the nature of the rumours and a simple "i was wrong not to trust you" would be enough.

For some others though they can't or won't accept that the VS was in any way justified in their actions on Horizon, to them pretty much the whole encounter is down to the VS turning their back on Shepard, the reasons why it happened, the circumstances which created those reasons are all in thier mind of lesser importance than the result of the encounter.

While i cannot understand this attitude, simply for the reason that real life should teach people that mistakes can be made and once people make those mistakes and own up to them then if your attitude is screw them they upset me you'll end up a very lonely person, it doesn't stop this attitude persisting.

For some people only a complete bow down from the VS is acceptable, they don't just want an apology imo they want the VS almost to throw themselves at Shepard's feet and beg forgiveness for all the horrible things they've done and even if this occured they'd still convince themselves the VS is untrustworthy because at one point in time they dared to question the almighty Shepard and didn't just follow without question.

Even if the VS at some future point saves Shepard's life some of these very same people will probably portray it as an attempt to get closer to Shepard just so they can stick the knife in later on.

So i'm really not sure what it will take to convince people and restore the trust because for some people once its gone its gone, no matter why it may not have been there at a particular time and place or the circumstances which called the trust into question, its the simple fact that they weren't trusted implicitly which causes them concern.

[Iakus]

alperez wrote...

Thats a big problem with the scene definetly (bad writing also doesn't help).

As for what it will take to rebuild the trust, the problem is that it really depends on which side of the fence you come down to over Horizon.

If like me you can understand the VS's reasoning behind why they acted how they did and can see why its justifiable then the e-mail goes a long way to rebuilding that trust, after that pretty much some explanation regarding the nature of the rumours and a simple "i was wrong not to trust you" would be enough.

For some others though they can't or won't accept that the VS was in any way justified in their actions on Horizon, to them pretty much the whole encounter is down to the VS turning their back on Shepard, the reasons why it happened, the circumstances which created those reasons are all in thier mind of lesser importance than the result of the encounter.

While i cannot understand this attitude, simply for the reason that real life should teach people that mistakes can be made and once people make those mistakes and own up to them then if your attitude is screw them they upset me you'll end up a very lonely person, it doesn't stop this attitude persisting.

For some people only a complete bow down from the VS is acceptable, they don't just want an apology imo they want the VS almost to throw themselves at Shepard's feet and beg forgiveness for all the horrible things they've done and even if this occured they'd still convince themselves the VS is untrustworthy because at one point in time they dared to question the almighty Shepard and didn't just follow without question.

Even if the VS at some future point saves Shepard's life some of these very same people will probably portray it as an attempt to get closer to Shepard just so they can stick the knife in later on.

So i'm really not sure what it will take to convince people and restore the trust because for some people once its gone its gone, no matter why it may not have been there at a particular time and place or the circumstances which called the trust into question, its the simple fact that they weren't trusted implicitly which causes them concern.

For myself, they were justified, but only to a point.  Thier belief that Shepard may have been used by Cerberus is justified  I wondered that myself.  But doubting Shepard's loyalty, barring previous behavior indicating such, is not.  Not without further evidence(real or falsified) that was not shown to the player.  That, to me will be the sticking point.

 If they can demonstrate that the VS had a definite reason to doubt Shepard's loyalty, that would make things "all better"  Though I'll still see it as ME3 fixing ME2's mistakes.  If it gets swept under the rug, or if the VS continues to jerk Shepard around, I'll be...upset.

[alperez]

iakus wrote...

For myself, they were justified, but only to a point.  Thier belief that Shepard may have been used by Cerberus is justified  I wondered that myself.  But doubting Shepard's loyalty, barring previous behavior indicating such, is not.  Not without further evidence(real or falsified) that was not shown to the player.  That, to me will be the sticking point.

 If they can demonstrate that the VS had a definite reason to doubt Shepard's loyalty, that would make things "all better"  Though I'll still see it as ME3 fixing ME2's mistakes.  If it gets swept under the rug, or if the VS continues to jerk Shepard around, I'll be...upset.

I always put the doubting of Shepards loyalty down to both working for cerberus and hurt feelings because they're no longer sure whether Shepard values the relationship they shared in the same way they do/did (again because of the mistaken perception they have regarding Shepard's death and the past 2 years) for me this works whether they're romanced or not but is more apparent in a romanced playthrough.

Its because of that the exact nature of the rumours don't really create the same importance for me, its enough knowing they exist (although i would like some indication of what they were) but i can understand why you feel differently.

I doubt they'll go the route of making the VS act similar to horizon because of the anger that it created amongst people, i do fear though that they may sweep the whole rumour thing under the rug though, its just an impression i have that they may not give as much attention to the whole why the VS acted how they did as we would like.

[Ravensword]

Ryzaki wrote...

If any of the LIs get into a fight over my Shep I want an option to dump them right then and there for being a child. 

Seriously that's just a major turn off. What are then teenagers? 

I hope you mean that as in "dump out of the airlock."

[Celtic Latino]

 Honestly I'm not sure. I understand the confused, troubled feelings, especially with Shepard being dead and brought back to life. If someone you loved (or even good friends with) died, you grieved for two years, tried to move on and then suddenly he or she shows up out of nowhere, let alone working for someone or doing something that stands against your values and beliefs, how would you feel? Also keep in mind Ash and Kaidan BOTH apologize in a later e-mail. A reconstruct of someone you love almost feels fake...once they died and you mourned do you really want them to come back as a zombie/mechanical reconstruction?

Now with the Reapers and the galaxy at stake, everyone's on edge. Shepard's worked with the Shadow Broker (another suspicion that could be raised) on top of working with Cerberus, they're called out for blowing up a batarian planet (not that Ash would mind...but she probably wouldn't approve either). A/K are definitely suspicious and have their guard up (reasonably so) against Shepard. 

I do personally think there's a potential for betrayal...and unless I'm playing a loyal Shep, any romances I had with either one are done and gone. I personally can't trust the VS simply because A/K will probably never trust Shepard against regardless of his/her motives and intentions. Definitely wanna see how it plays out. 

[Dariustwinblade]

After reading the spoiler. Definately no!

[WardenMaster]

ok so just so i can refresh my self what does VS stand for other than versus

[Mhgasa]

alphaisomega wrote...

ok so just so i can refresh my self what does VS stand for other than versus

Virmire survivor ashley/kaidan

[Ryzaki]

jreezy wrote...

I feel sorry for people that decided to spoil the game for themselves. I bet it wasn't worth it.

Why not? Some people (like me) really don't care about spoilers. It doesn't affect my enjoyment of the game other than me going "Oooh this looks a lot cooler than it sounded!" or vice versa. 

[Ryzaki]

jreezy wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

jreezy wrote...

I feel sorry for people that decided to spoil the game for themselves. I bet it wasn't worth it.

Why not? Some people (like me) really don't care about spoilers. It doesn't affect my enjoyment of the game other than me going "Oooh this looks a lot cooler than it sounded!" or vice versa. 

Narrative design documents (I'm guessing that's what people saw, I could be wrong) go into too much detail about the story, stuff like that is on a whole other level of spoiler that I definitely don't want to know about.

Eh doesn't affect me. I'm gonna have fun either way. 

@OP: after reading spoilers I don't trust the VS any further than my Shepard could throw Harbinger with Sovereign on his back. 

And yes it's because my Shep's "vain" and "can't take anyone questioning his orders." if it makes you feel better. Whatever. VS isn't staying by my Shep's side in ME3. Too much bad blood for that. My Sheps would trust Jack over the VS. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 novembre 2011 - 08:10 .

[Xewaka]

This thread has it backwards. It's not "can you trust the VS after Horizon?". It's "Can the VS trust Shepard after Horizon?" After all, Shepard dissapeared two years to come back as member of a known criminal organization and suspicioulsy in time to save the colonies after a new, until then unknown threat emerged.
That's enough to raise a few eyebrows.

[WardenMaster]

Mhgasa wrote...

alphaisomega wrote...

ok so just so i can refresh my self what does VS stand for other than versus

Virmire survivor ashley/kaidan

 thank you it's been a while since i've been on the forums thanks that was bugging me for a while now i'm kicking my self for not geussing that