527 réponses à ce sujet

[tangalin]

Siansonea II wrote...

General User wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

*snip*

Oh please. If your argument is that "Cerberus might still be the good guys" then you're just reaching at this point. 

Cerberus was never really "good" to begin with.  But they've done enough, for Shepard and for the galaxy, that I'm willing to wait until the facts are in before passing judgement.

But you'll pass judgment on the VS for daring to call Shepard out for committing treason? In case you were wondering, working for Cerberus is treason. The More You Know™.

How is it treason. According to ME1, Cerberus is basically the equivalent of an Alliance black ops unit that went off the deep end but was still technically part of the Alliance.

[Ryzaki]

Siansonea II wrote...

General User wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

*snip*

Oh please. If your argument is that "Cerberus might still be the good guys" then you're just reaching at this point. 

Cerberus was never really "good" to begin with.  But they've done enough, for Shepard and for the galaxy, that I'm willing to wait until the facts are in before passing judgement.

But you'll pass judgment on the VS for daring to call Shepard out for committing treason? In case you were wondering, working for Cerberus is treason. The More You Know™.

So was stealing the Normandy. So if the VS wants to act like Treason is the main issue they shouldn't throw stones. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 novembre 2011 - 11:57 .

[Drone223]

Ryzaki wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

General User wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

*snip*

Oh please. If your argument is that "Cerberus might still be the good guys" then you're just reaching at this point. 

Cerberus was never really "good" to begin with.  But they've done enough, for Shepard and for the galaxy, that I'm willing to wait until the facts are in before passing judgement.

But you'll pass judgment on the VS for daring to call Shepard out for committing treason? In case you were wondering, working for Cerberus is treason. The More You Know™.

So was stealing the Normandy. So if the VS wants to act like Treason is the main issue they shouldn't throw stones. 

When they stole the Normandy they knew the facts because they where with Shepard, But after two years of Shepard being "dead" Shepard is now with Cerberus a group that killed Alliance soilder's and Officer's, they didn't know about Liara recovering the body from the Shadow broker, so they had every reason to suspect Shepard 

Modifié par Drone223, 09 novembre 2011 - 12:02 .

[Xilizhra]

Given the circumstances, Shepard working with Cerberus isn't technically treason, even if the VS didn't know that. Unfortunately, Shepard couldn't say it either.

[Another_Golden_Dragon]

jreezy wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Another_Golden_Dragon wrote...

Garrus trusted Shepard after Shepard came to his rescue, twice, in fact saving his life. And furthermore, TIM didn't actually know that Archangel and Garrus were one and the same (he even says so) until part-way thru the mission.

I wouldn't trust his word on anything. He llied about Liara.

I have the feeling that was a gamelay error. 

And it's not TIM's word to Shepard in the report. Shepard doesn't know about the Reports given at the end of each mission (well he knows Miranda gives reports and that TIM comments on it but he doesn't know the contents) that's strictly player info only. Like those scenes were Loghain's talking to Howe in DAO. The warden doesn't have the info but the player does. 

TIM has no reason to lie to himself. 

What he said about Liara working for the SB wasn't in the report, he said it to Shepard's face.

TIM (if asked about former crewmembers) says that Garrus dropped off the grid a few months after the Normandy was destroyed and that he couldn't locate him.  So he tells Shepard that Garrus isn't available to Shepard's face as well.

Then when we go to Omega and get Archangel, we find out that it's actually Garrus.  Tim has lied, but a lack of knowledge is more excusable.

[Ryzaki]

Drone223 wrote...
When they stole the Normandy they knew the facts because they where with Shepard, But after two years of Shepard being "dead" Shepard is now with Cerberus a group that killed Alliance soilder's and Officer's, they didn't know about Liara recovering the body from the Shadow broker, so they had every reason to suspect Shepard 

And yet they should've had enough sense to know Shep does actions that seem treasonous to anyone outside his circle but make perfect sense to anyone within it. They should've known it wasn't as simple as Shep going Cerberus because "hurr durr I decided to be a terrorist now." Instead they decided to act like Shep's track record meant nothing. 

[jeweledleah]

technically - Shepard is told by the council that he/she is working with their avowed enemies. furthermore - it was Anderson who suggested stealing the Normandy and it was Anderson that facilitated it. technically, the Normandy was still an alliance ship, on LOAN to a spectre. it was NOT locked down on alliance admiral orders, it was locked down on orders from a civilian. so by sanctioned "stealing" of the Normandy - Shepard was not committing treason. Shepard was just following the orders of their superior military officer. so the two situations don't really compare.

few pages back someone said a very succinct and true sentence, so I'm going to repeat it with a minor addition. after what I've read, even if its from an old build: the only people I don't trust are the writers. /shrug

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...

technically - Shepard is told by the council that he/she is working with their avowed enemies. furthermore - it was Anderson who suggested stealing the Normandy and it was Anderson that facilitated it. technically, the Normandy was still an alliance ship, on LOAN to a spectre. it was NOT locked down on alliance admiral orders, it was locked down on orders from a civilian. so by sanctioned "stealing" of the Normandy - Shepard was not committing treason. Shepard was just following the orders of their superior military officer. so the two situations don't really compare.

few pages back someone said a very succinct and true sentence, so I'm going to repeat it with a minor addition. after what I've read, even if its from an old build: the only people I don't trust are the writers. /shrug

Uh...no. I just finished that section and they're committing a crime. Everyone on board ship acknowledges they're "stealing" the Normandy. Anderson is committing a crime along with the rest of them. He acknowledges it too. That ship was locked on Udina's authority and he had the backing of the alliance higher ups so yeah Anderson was overruled. Thus the whole "we'll get court martialed." by...someone forgot who in specific said it. and someone else mentions getting arrested and losing their uniform. No reason for that if "they did nothing wrong." It is not okay to take a grounded state of the art warship for your own purposes. If they weren't committing treason they were committing something close to it. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 novembre 2011 - 12:19 .

[Iakus]

Paragon Shep evens says "I shouldn't even be wearing this uniform"

[Drone223]

Ryzaki wrote...

Drone223 wrote...
When they stole the Normandy they knew the facts because they where with Shepard, But after two years of Shepard being "dead" Shepard is now with Cerberus a group that killed Alliance soilder's and Officer's, they didn't know about Liara recovering the body from the Shadow broker, so they had every reason to suspect Shepard 

And yet they should've had enough sense to know Shep does actions that seem treasonous to anyone outside his circle but make perfect sense to anyone within it. They should've known it wasn't as simple as Shep going Cerberus because "hurr durr I decided to be a terrorist now." Instead they decided to act like Shep's track record meant nothing. 

The problem was they saw Shepard die, and for two year's they thought he/she was dead and suddenly they meet Shepard on Horzion, who tells them that he/she is with Cerberus, Shepard never tried cotacted the VS and tell them he/she was alive so that's so they begain question what Shepard was doing over those two year's, Shepard say's he/she has been brought back from the dead which sounds hard to believe especially when you see some one die, so they would not hessitate to suspect Shepard was working for Cerberus for two year's in which Shepard was supposidly dead

[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...

Paragon Shep evens says "I shouldn't even be wearing this uniform"

aha! Shepard said it...does he say anything about a court martial?

[Ryzaki]

Drone223 wrote...

The problem was they saw Shepard die, and for two year's they thought he/she was dead and suddenly they meet Shepard on Horzion, who tells them that he/she is with Cerberus, Shepard never tried cotacted the VS and tell them he/she was alive so that's so they begain question what Shepard was doing over those two year's, Shepard say's he/she has been brought back from the dead which sounds hard to believe especially when you see some one die, so they would not hessitate to suspect Shepard was working for Cerberus for two year's in which Shepard was supposidly dead

Wow. The VS apparently things Shep's a complete monster even in ME2 then? Since he "supposedly" died that means he fabricated everything (including the Normandy blowing up) so he could join Cerberus? Their opinion of him is that low despite having served with him and claiming they know him? 

Well screw you too VS. 

[jeweledleah]

Ryzaki wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

technically - Shepard is told by the council that he/she is working with their avowed enemies. furthermore - it was Anderson who suggested stealing the Normandy and it was Anderson that facilitated it. technically, the Normandy was still an alliance ship, on LOAN to a spectre. it was NOT locked down on alliance admiral orders, it was locked down on orders from a civilian. so by sanctioned "stealing" of the Normandy - Shepard was not committing treason. Shepard was just following the orders of their superior military officer. so the two situations don't really compare.

few pages back someone said a very succinct and true sentence, so I'm going to repeat it with a minor addition. after what I've read, even if its from an old build: the only people I don't trust are the writers. /shrug

Uh...no. I just finished that section and they're committing a crime. Everyone on board ship acknowledges they're "stealing" the Normandy. Anderson is committing a crime along with the rest of them. He acknowledges it too. That ship was locked on Udina's authority and he had the backing of the alliance higher ups so yeah Anderson was overruled. Thus the whole "we'll get court martialed." by...someone forgot who in specific said it. and someone else mentions getting arrested and losing their uniform. No reason for that if "they did nothing wrong." It is not okay to take a grounded state of the art warship for your own purposes. If they weren't committing treason they were committing something close to it. 

they were comminting a crime.  of sorts but that crime was NOT treason.  if the loopholes didn't work out, if things went to crap - they would have to pay for it.

however, working for the enemy IS treason.

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...

they were comminting a crime.  of sorts but that crime was NOT treason.  if the loopholes didn't work out, if things went to crap - they would have to pay for it.

however, working for the enemy IS treason.

There is no of sorts about it they were committing a crime. 
One that I'm pretty sure was treason. They disobeyed direct orders to stay put and leave the Normandy grounded. They potentially assulted the one who gave the order as well (if you had Anderson punch Udina in the face which honestly...who didn't pick that choice?  ) Whether this counts as treason depends on the specific gov'ts laws. I'm inclined to believe (given the way everyone was acting) it would've been considered treason. They took a weapon that would've been valuable to the defense of the Citadel (remember everyone thinks Sovereign is coming at the citadel DIRECTLY with his army of geth) and skipped town with it. 

There were no loopholes. Only reason they didn't pay for it was because they became heroes. You don't punish the hero if you don't want to make the populace angry. 

And for the record this is Canada's laws on treason (according to wikipedia)

Section 46 [9] of the Criminal Code of Canada has two degrees of treason, called "high treason" and "treason." However, both of these belong to the historical category of high treason, as opposed to petty treason which does not exist in Canadian law. Section 46 reads as follows:

"High treason
(1) Every one commits high treason who, in Canada,
(a) kills or attempts to kill Her Majesty, or does her any bodily harm tending to death or destruction, maims or wounds her, or imprisons or restrains her;
( levies war against Canada or does any act preparatory thereto; or
© assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.

Now Shep does not committ HIGH treason (according to Canada) in ME2. 

Treason
(2) Every one commits treason who, in Canada,
(a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province;
( without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada;
© conspires with any person to commit high treason or to do anything mentioned in paragraph (a);
(d) forms an intention to do anything that is high treason or that is mentioned in paragraph (a) and manifests that intention by an overt act; or
(e) conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in paragraph ( or forms an intention to do anything mentioned in paragraph ( and manifests that intention by an overt act."

It is also illegal for a Canadian citizen to do any of the above outside Canada.

The penalty for high treason is life imprisonment. The penalty for treason is imprisonment up to a maximum of life, or up to 14 years for conduct under subsection (2)( or (e) in peacetime.

So yes if we're using this law he committed treason only in ME2. I was wrong about that. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 novembre 2011 - 12:59 .

[jeweledleah]

I had a reply typed up, but it was kinda getting even more personal then the following, so I'm just going to say - believe what you will, Ryz, its your prerogative and your personal opinion/right to hate and judge harshly and unfairly whatever character you want, while give other characters a pass, because "they make you laugh"

given the evidence we have - VS had good reasons to be angry. the question remains on whether bioware will develop and uncover the specifics of those reasons, or just go with - meh, they only have very few fans, might as well go all the way with character assassination - remains to be seen. if they chose to wave away those unelaborated upon rumors that made council and alliance weary of Shepard, and led them to believe that Cerberus was behind colony abductions - then I might lose my trust in VS as well... right after I lose what remains of my trust in bioware's promises.

edited to add - in the laws that you quoted, not a single paragraph fits the description of what happend with taking the normandy from under a lockout.

however - in ME2, Shepard falls under THIS particular law
© assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against
whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state
of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 09 novembre 2011 - 12:44 .

[YouthCultureForever]

If there are problems between Shepard and the VS, Shepard caused them.

Cerberus's masterplan to save the fragile frontier rests on them getting to Freedom's Progress before anyone else? No. That was bullsh*t and Shepard should have realized it.

Jacob: "We're hoping to be the first ones to get there this time."
Shepard: "And if we're not?"
Jacob: "I don't know...we didn't get that far..."
Shepard: ...

During the Freedom's Progress debriefing TIM reveals he knew the Collectors were behind the abductions. Freedom's Progress was a carefully crafted illusion and stupidly, Shepard fell for it. The VS reminds Shepard that s/he shouldn't trust Cerberus, that they're a shady organization who thrives on ulterior motives and Shepard dismisses them with essentially, "Cerberus is okay and I know I'm doing the right thing."

The plot called for Shep to be stupid, and boy did s/he play the part well.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 09 novembre 2011 - 12:45 .

[Xilizhra]

Wasn't Freedom's Progress just a way to show Shepard the Collectors? Because she may very well have not believed Cerberus' evidence, she had to find independent evidence.

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...

I had a reply typed up, but it was kinda getting even more personal then the following, so I'm just going to say - believe what you will, Ryz, its your prerogative and your personal opinion/right to hate and judge harshly and unfairly whatever character you want, while give other characters a pass, because "they make you laugh"

given the evidence we have - VS had good reasons to be angry. the question remains on whether bioware will develop and uncover the specifics of those reasons, or just go with - meh, they only have very few fans, might as well go all the way with character assassination - remains to be seen. if they chose to wave away those unelaborated upon rumors that made council and alliance weary of Shepard, and led them to believe that Cerberus was behind colony abductions - then I might lose my trust in VS as well... right after I lose what remains of my trust in bioware's promises.

edited to add - in the laws that you quoted, not a single paragraph fits the description of what happend with taking the normandy from under a lockout.

however - in ME2, Shepard falls under THIS particular law
© assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against
whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state
of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.

Of course. I dislike the poor VS for unjustified reasons and personal bias. Just like them with Shepard. I treat people the way they treat others. Yet apparently it's okay for them to treat Shep that way but woe betide someone doing it to them. And I forgive Joker for a multitude of reasons the simpliest being he amuses me. He also happens to have my Shep's back far more than the VS and doesn't think Shepard is secretly a monster who would eat babies at the first opportunity while claiming to know him. 

True you're right. Shep was committing treason in ME2. I'm just sure he was committing it in ME1 as well. Tali, Garrus and Wrex are not agents of the alliance. Though I admit it's shaky and just based off what vibes I got from the scene. 
. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 novembre 2011 - 12:55 .

[jeweledleah]

no. what they were committing was going AWOL with government property in tow. that's not treason. it IS a capital crime that could get them court marshaled, but it was NOT treason, becasue there was no intention on their part to endanger or betray the alliance or the council in any way.

and the whole VS thinks that Shepard is a monster who eats babies is your own beleive and adition.  they say nothing of a kind, and they don't act as if that's what they think.  even without the romanced letter - they say: "I want to trust you, but I don't trust Cerberus" they give Shepard an opening to try and say something, anything.  they confirm Shepard's reports. 

@ Xil - freedom's progress was not interdependently found source. Shep was sent there by Cerberus. the only reason I was ok with Shepard going along for now (but I still think TIM set that thing up) was due to Veetor's evidence.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 09 novembre 2011 - 12:54 .

[Goody Two Shoes]

YouthCultureForever wrote...

If there are problems between Shepard and the VS, Shepard caused them.

Cerberus's masterplan to save the fragile frontier rests on them getting to Freedom's Progress before anyone else? No. That was bullsh*t and Shepard should have realized it.

Jacob: "We're hoping to be the first ones to get there this time."
Shepard: "And if we're not?"
Jacob: "I don't know...we didn't get that far..."
Shepard: ...

During the Freedom's Progress debriefing TIM reveals he knew the Collectors were behind the abductions. Freedom's Progress was a carefully crafted illusion and stupidly, Shepard fell for it. The VS reminds Shepard that s/he shouldn't trust Cerberus, that they're a shady organization who thrives on ulterior motives and Shepard dismisses them with essentially, "Cerberus is okay and I know I'm doing the right thing."

The plot called for Shep to be stupid, and boy did s/he play the part well.

Nope, your Shepard was stupid and blindly trusted Cerberus, I didn't. The plot railroaded you into doing some of TIM's diry work, but it doesn't force you to trust him. Which is exactly why I blew up the Collector's Base and stole his billion credit ship.

Modifié par Goody Two Shoes, 09 novembre 2011 - 12:57 .

[Xilizhra]

@ Xil - freedom's progress was not interdependently found source. Shep was sent there by Cerberus. the only reason I was ok with Shepard going along for now (but I still think TIM set that thing up) was due to Veetor's evidence.

I don't think TIM planned for the quarians, but they did work out rather well.

Also, I'm beginning to think it could be best to remain... cautious of the VS. After all, they're the squadmate who's now most distant from me, with the most potentially divergent loyalties.

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...

no. what they were committing was going AWOL with government property in tow. that's not treason. it IS a capital crime that could get them court marshaled, but it was NOT treason, becasue there was no intention on their part to endanger or betray the alliance or the council in any way.

and the whole VS thinks that Shepard is a monster who eats babies is your own beleive and adition.  they say nothing of a kind, and they don't act as if that's what they think.  even without the romanced letter - they say: "I want to trust you, but I don't trust Cerberus" they give Shepard an opening to try and say something, anything.  they confirm Shepard's reports. 

@ Xil - freedom's progress was not interdependently found source. Shep was sent there by Cerberus. the only reason I was ok with Shepard going along for now (but I still think TIM set that thing up) was due to Veetor's evidence.

So taking one of the best weapons the alliance has when they're preparing for a battle with a foe isn't endangering the alliance and the council? I suppose it'snot treason to take top secret weapon blueprints as long as you're not gonna use them against the country you stole them from and won't give them to anyone else. 

So so them thinking Shepard wasn't really dead means what? The Normandy just happened to blow up and he was fully unharmed and then just decided to skip town (without even trying to get info on why the ship was destroyed and the people he'd worked with for a year if not less) and run off to Cerberus the day after? Because the VS doesn't even know about the collectors until Horizon and they apparently made up their mind on what Shep was doing long before that. They were just waiting for Shep to say he was working with Cerberus so all their preconceptions could be validated as far as I'm concerned given the shutdown the second Shep says "I'm with Cerberus." 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 novembre 2011 - 01:04 .

[Iakus]

Ryzaki wrote...

iakus wrote...

Paragon Shep evens says "I shouldn't even be wearing this uniform"

aha! Shepard said it...does he say anything about a court martial?

Not as such, but:

Ash:  Skipper?
Shepard: You don't have to call me that.  I'm a traitor now.  I probably shouldn't even be wearing this uniform.
Ash:  We had to do this, Shepard.  You know that.  There was no other way.  And you'll always be the skipper to me "Oh Captain, my Captain

In retrospect, that quote was a bad omen...