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[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

iakus wrote...

Paragon Shep evens says "I shouldn't even be wearing this uniform"

aha! Shepard said it...does he say anything about a court martial?

Not as such, but:

Ash:  Skipper?
Shepard: You don't have to call me that.  I'm a traitor now.  I probably shouldn't even be wearing this uniform.
Ash:  We had to do this, Shepard.  You know that.  There was no other way.  And you'll always be the skipper to me "Oh Captain, my Captain

In retrospect, that quote was a bad omen...

So Shep flat out says he's a traitor? 

Well that answers that I guess! 

Thanks iakus! 

[YouthCultureForever]

Xilizhra wrote...

Wasn't Freedom's Progress just a way to show Shepard the Collectors? Because she may very well have not believed Cerberus' evidence, she had to find independent evidence.

Yes, but the initial premise behind Freedom's Progress sounds dumb. What if, like every other time (as much as Jacob knows at least), Cerberus doesn't get there first? At that point the success of Shepard's mission rested on an investigation which could have legitimately turned up absolutely nothing. This couldn't have been the first colony Cerberus had a chance at in two years. The best plan TIM had was to resurrect a dead soldier and send him/her on a witch hunt across the galaxy? I don't believe it. TIM should have cut to the chase about the Collector's involvement, about wanting you to shut down the base, about everything. It made me much more distrustful of him. As I'd come to find out, that distrust wasn't misplaced.

Edited for clarification.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 09 novembre 2011 - 01:48 .

[Iakus]

jeweledleah wrote...
given the evidence we have - VS had good reasons to be angry. the question remains on whether bioware will develop and uncover the specifics of those reasons, or just go with - meh, they only have very few fans, might as well go all the way with character assassination - remains to be seen. if they chose to wave away those unelaborated upon rumors that made council and alliance weary of Shepard, and led them to believe that Cerberus was behind colony abductions - then I might lose my trust in VS as well... right after I lose what remains of my trust in bioware's promises.

"I will not abandon Ash, even if Bioware has"

[Ryzaki]

I really would've preferred if FP had a prologue of Shep going to the council to get "ah yes 'Reapers'." first. Maybe even hear some of the family members of the disappeared colonists screaming at the alliance (or rather at Udina/Anderson) to do something only get to "it's outside our juristiction. Your family knew the risks when they left council space." (from Udina) or "we're trying but it'll take time." from Anderson. It would've made working with Cerberus alot more sensible and less like Shep going "well I don't trust you but I'll check it out just in case." 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 novembre 2011 - 01:08 .

[Iakus]

Ryzaki wrote...

So Shep flat out says he's a traitor? 

Well that answers that I guess! 

Thanks iakus! 

Paragon Shep says it, yeah.

Which is in large part why I think Bioware massively overdid it with the VS's attitude on Horizon.  Not that they shouldn't have been suspicious, but that they dialed it up to eleven.

[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...
Paragon Shep says it, yeah.

Which is in large part why I think Bioware massively overdid it with the VS's attitude on Horizon.  Not that they shouldn't have been suspicious, but that they dialed it up to eleven.

What would you have had in mind? It's kind of weird how Ash seems more calm than Kaidan though. 

[Ryzaki]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Yes, but then they wouldn't have had time to get there first. And besides, Freedom's Progress was less about plot and more about "Here's your second tutorial level. Let's learn how to bypass defences and move your squadmates."

lol. 

Maybe as a price for doubting Shep gets their so late that only Tali is left alive and is being cornered by the Mech? He saves her at the last minute in that scenario or something? 

[Goody Two Shoes]

Ryzaki wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

no. what they were committing was going AWOL with government property in tow. that's not treason. it IS a capital crime that could get them court marshaled, but it was NOT treason, becasue there was no intention on their part to endanger or betray the alliance or the council in any way.

and the whole VS thinks that Shepard is a monster who eats babies is your own beleive and adition.  they say nothing of a kind, and they don't act as if that's what they think.  even without the romanced letter - they say: "I want to trust you, but I don't trust Cerberus" they give Shepard an opening to try and say something, anything.  they confirm Shepard's reports. 

@ Xil - freedom's progress was not interdependently found source. Shep was sent there by Cerberus. the only reason I was ok with Shepard going along for now (but I still think TIM set that thing up) was due to Veetor's evidence.

So taking one of the best weapons the alliance has when they're preparing for a battle with a foe isn't endangering the alliance and the council? I suppose it'snot treason to take top secret weapon blueprints as long as you're not gonna use them against the country you stole them from and won't give them to anyone else. 

So so them thinking Shepard wasn't really dead means what? The Normandy just happened to blow up and he was fully unharmed and then just decided to skip town (without even trying to get info on why the ship was destroyed and the people he'd worked with for a year if not less) and run off to Cerberus the day after? Because the VS doesn't even know about the collectors until Horizon and they apparently made up their mind on what Shep was doing long before that. They were just waiting for Shep to say he was working with Cerberus so all their preconceptions could be validated. 

This.

Shepard dying had nothing to do with the VS suspicions. Ash even refers to Shepard as a "God". They were fully ready to fall back into Shepard's arms when they saw him/her, but the minute the word "Cerberus" came up, you went from God to back-stabbing traitor. Despite that fact that the VS knows nothing about what Shepard is actually doing with Cerberus (other than combating the Collectors). Despite that fact the Anderson and the Council are aware of your temporary alliance with Cerberus. And despite the fact that you just saved their ungateful ass.

[Iakus]

Ryzaki wrote...

iakus wrote...
Paragon Shep says it, yeah.

Which is in large part why I think Bioware massively overdid it with the VS's attitude on Horizon.  Not that they shouldn't have been suspicious, but that they dialed it up to eleven.

What would you have had in mind? It's kind of weird how Ash seems more calm than Kaidan though. 

Honestly, I would have thought something along the lines of Tali meeting Shepard on Freedom's Progress.  I could have totally seen teh VS with some Alliance marines there instead.

Or Anderson at the Citadel.  Who at least understands why Shep's doing what he's doing even if he doesn't entirely approve.

[jeweledleah]

Ryzaki wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

no. what they were committing was going AWOL with government property in tow. that's not treason. it IS a capital crime that could get them court marshaled, but it was NOT treason, becasue there was no intention on their part to endanger or betray the alliance or the council in any way.

and the whole VS thinks that Shepard is a monster who eats babies is your own beleive and adition.  they say nothing of a kind, and they don't act as if that's what they think.  even without the romanced letter - they say: "I want to trust you, but I don't trust Cerberus" they give Shepard an opening to try and say something, anything.  they confirm Shepard's reports. 

@ Xil - freedom's progress was not interdependently found source. Shep was sent there by Cerberus. the only reason I was ok with Shepard going along for now (but I still think TIM set that thing up) was due to Veetor's evidence.

So taking one of the best weapons the alliance has when they're preparing for a battle with a foe isn't endangering the alliance and the council? I suppose it'snot treason to take top secret weapon blueprints as long as you're not gonna use them against the country you stole them from and won't give them to anyone else. 

So so them thinking Shepard wasn't really dead means what? The Normandy just happened to blow up and he was fully unharmed and then just decided to skip town (without even trying to get info on why the ship was destroyed and the people he'd worked with for a year if not less) and run off to Cerberus the day after? Because the VS doesn't even know about the collectors until Horizon and they apparently made up their mind on what Shep was doing long before that. They were just waiting for Shep to say he was working with Cerberus so all their preconceptions could be validated as far as I'm concerned given the shutdown the second Shep says "I'm with Cerberus." 

worst case scenarion - Cerberus working with collectors, Shepard sets up with Cerberus to blow u Normandy, get picked up by them, start workign with them right away.  which is possible what the rumors were saying, or could have been saying.

VS was sent to investigate the colony disappearances and potentialy defend them - Sehaprd was just a rumor.  both VS AND Anderson confirm both of the above.  and yet they still tell Shepard that they want to trust them.  they still tell them to be careful and take care.  becasue obviously you tell it to people you are sure to be horrible baby eaters.  they are still not 100% sure if the rumors are correct and they arehop[ing that Shepard could dispell them.  Shepard?  doesn't.

as for stealing of the Normandy - was it going to be used in a battle?  or was it locked up so that Shepard couldn't just leave the Citadel?

edited - VS doesn't know that Shepard may or may not have gone to the Citadel and talked to Anderson.  ANDERSON confirms that VS didn't know, and then proceeds to tell them that even if he did know, he woudln't have told VS about it.

and also - what Iakus said about meeting- it should have gone as something like Tali's freedom's progress, or heck even meeting Liara on Illium.  or even if it did go the way it did - it should have ended on a better note becasue Shepard should have been given more options, to you know, actualy explain.  tell VS that they were reinstante,d that they have chatted with Anderson, etc.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 09 novembre 2011 - 01:26 .

[jeweledleah]

iakus wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...
given the evidence we have - VS had good reasons to be angry. the question remains on whether bioware will develop and uncover the specifics of those reasons, or just go with - meh, they only have very few fans, might as well go all the way with character assassination - remains to be seen. if they chose to wave away those unelaborated upon rumors that made council and alliance weary of Shepard, and led them to believe that Cerberus was behind colony abductions - then I might lose my trust in VS as well... right after I lose what remains of my trust in bioware's promises.

"I will not abandon Ash, even if Bioware has"

I won't be able to justify it on all but maybe 2 of my Shepards. it was hard enough to keep Anders alive.  if the choice that i'm afraid of will be in game, I'll...  well - you know my plans concering that

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...

worst case scenarion - Cerberus working with collectors, Shepard sets up with Cerberus to blow u Normandy, get picked up by them, start workign with them right away.  which is possible what the rumors were saying, or could have been saying.

VS was sent to investigate the colony disappearances and potentialy defend them - Sehaprd was just a rumor.  both VS AND Anderson confirm both of the above.  and yet they still tell Shepard that they want to trust them.  they still tell them to be careful and take care.  becasue obviously you tell it to people you are sure to be horrible baby eaters.  they are still not 100% sure if the rumors are correct and they arehop[ing that Shepard could dispell them.  Shepard?  doesn't.

as for stealing of the Normandy - was it going to be used in a battle?  or was it locked up so that Shepard couldn't just leave the Citadel?

Except of course that leaves the question...just who is doing something about those creatures (the VS does not know it was the collectors who blew up Shep's ship. Or maybe they do. Seems odd how they'e not the least bit interested that the creatures that blow up their ship and killed their allies are fighting Shep and Cerberus what exactly happened to the enemy of my enemy is my friend?) hm...there's no way Shep could've joined Cerberus about that? Nah he's just being a traitor. Though either of us could be right because neither of us know the rumors or just what as in the VS head. 

Them telling Shepard to take care yeah I'll give you that. They don't think Shep's a complete monster I was being dramatic . And they don't bother giving Shepard the chance to dispel the rumors. Shep confirms one of them and they take that to mean Shep's confirming all of them. Which isn't even remotely the case. 

Shepard flat out says it's treason so it's treason. He has no reason to lie about that to another officer (ash). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 novembre 2011 - 01:35 .

[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

iakus wrote...
Paragon Shep says it, yeah.

Which is in large part why I think Bioware massively overdid it with the VS's attitude on Horizon.  Not that they shouldn't have been suspicious, but that they dialed it up to eleven.

What would you have had in mind? It's kind of weird how Ash seems more calm than Kaidan though. 

Honestly, I would have thought something along the lines of Tali meeting Shepard on Freedom's Progress.  I could have totally seen teh VS with some Alliance marines there instead.

Or Anderson at the Citadel.  Who at least understands why Shep's doing what he's doing even if he doesn't entirely approve.

That would've been alot more interesting. 

And ah Anderson. He's one of the only reasons my Shep doesn't say "screw this." and head back to Ilos to wait out the Reapers. 

[jeweledleah]

Shepard is a military laywer now? maybe he's just being dramatic himself?

and again - they confirm Shepard's report once they see proof. they ask Shepard to explain. Shepard - doesn't. Shepard doesn't say - wait, let me explain, let me give you the data. no, Shepard just stands there like a brick, tells VS that they won't listen to reason (heh, what reason?), or (and that one is my favorite) asks them to join their crew... just like old times.

we don't know exactly what those rumors were. I'm not sure bioware decided at the time what they were.

depending on the direction they take - you may turn out to be right after all.. and I'll have one less game in my collection. or I may turn out right and maybe you won't judge them as harshly (not really hoping that would happen, to be honest - once dislike sets in, it transfers onto everything, reason or no reason - its human). with the evidence before my not counting ME3 rumors? I'm inclined to give them a very huge benefit of the doubt.

speaking of Anderson

  i relaly need to get the first part of that vidoe and figure out already how to splice them together.  pay particular attention to where he says that even if he new before sendign VS to Horizon - he STILl woudln't have told them about Shepard.
 edited - i think i linked the wrong half - gimme a few minutes to get the correct one

Modifié par jeweledleah, 09 novembre 2011 - 01:40 .

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...

Shepard is a military laywer now? maybe he's just being dramatic himself?

and again - they confirm Shepard's report once they see proof. they ask Shepard to explain. Shepard - doesn't. Shepard doesn't say - wait, let me explain, let me give you the data. no, Shepard just stands there like a brick, tells VS that they won't listen to reason (heh, what reason?), or (and that one is my favorite) asks them to join their crew... just like old times.

we don't know exactly what those rumors were. I'm not sure bioware decided at the time what they were.

depending on the direction they take - you may turn out to be right after all.. and I'll have one less game in my collection. or I may turn out right and maybe you won't judge them as harshly (not really hoping that would happen, to be honest - once dislike sets in, it transfers onto everything, reason or no reason - its human). with the evidence before my not counting ME3 rumors? I'm inclined to give them a very huge benefit of the doubt.

...You're seriously telling me Shep has to be a lawyer to know what constitues treason when he's in the military?  Especially since he's not a grunt?  Really? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 novembre 2011 - 01:42 .

[Ryzaki]

 DP. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 novembre 2011 - 01:40 .

[jeweledleah]

he may feel like a traitor. maybe the ME laws are different and just stealing a military vessel also falls under description of what constitutes treason. but according to the laws that you linked? Shepard is NOT legally a traitor

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...

he may feel like a traitor. maybe the ME laws are different and just stealing a military vessel also falls under description of what constitutes treason. but according to the laws that you linked? Shepard is NOT legally a traitor

Uh I shouldn't have to explain this but last I checked Canada laws =/= ME laws. Fictional universe yo. They could say Shep eating cheese was treason it would be true. Ridculous but true. 

According to ME laws Shep's a traitor in ME and a high traitor in ME2...wonder if he'll be an uber traitor in ME3. 

I only drew parrels to Canada law because I wasnt *sure* if Shep was/wasn't a traitor. I had thought no one said it one way or the other (in ME1 as far as I'm concerned everyone that's not on Shep's crew/Anderson in ME2 can kick rocks). Apparently someone did. In that case their word superceeds mine. And yes even when I thought Shep wasn't a traitor in ME2 the game word still superceeded mine. I was wrong but decided to ignore the game evidence that Shep was a traitor (mostly because my Shep didn't feel like a traitor and I find the council to be the biggest traitors of all ignoring the Reaper threat [unless it turns out in ME3 they were preparing all along]). But Shep's always been a traitor. It's his price to keep the galaxy safe I suppose. 

Being forced back into the alliance is gonna ****** him off. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 novembre 2011 - 02:02 .

[Iakus]

jeweledleah wrote...

iakus wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...
given the evidence we have - VS had good reasons to be angry. the question remains on whether bioware will develop and uncover the specifics of those reasons, or just go with - meh, they only have very few fans, might as well go all the way with character assassination - remains to be seen. if they chose to wave away those unelaborated upon rumors that made council and alliance weary of Shepard, and led them to believe that Cerberus was behind colony abductions - then I might lose my trust in VS as well... right after I lose what remains of my trust in bioware's promises.

"I will not abandon Ash, even if Bioware has"

I won't be able to justify it on all but maybe 2 of my Shepards. it was hard enough to keep Anders alive.  if the choice that i'm afraid of will be in game, I'll...  well - you know my plans concering that

Yeah, that will not be fun.

But still...

[jeweledleah]

Ryzaki wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

he may feel like a traitor. maybe the ME laws are different and just stealing a military vessel also falls under description of what constitutes treason. but according to the laws that you linked? Shepard is NOT legally a traitor

Uh I shouldn't have to explain this but last I checked Canada laws =/= ME laws. Fictional universe yo. 

According to ME laws Shep's a traitor in ME and a high traitor in ME2...wonder if he'll be an uber traitor in ME3. 

I only drew parrels to Canada law because I wasnt *sure* if Shep was/wasn't a traitor. I had thought no one said it one way or the other. Apparently someone did. In that case their word superceeds mine. And yes even when I thought Shep wasn't a traitor in ME2 the game word still superceeded mine. I was wrong but decided to ignore the game evidence that Shep was a traitor (mostly because my Shep didn't feel like a traitor). But Shep's always been a traitor. It's his price to keep the galaxy safe I suppose. 

Being forced back into the alliance is gonna ****** him off. 

well, I suppose Shepard DOES become a traitor - twice.  what Shep will be in ME3 is anyone's guess at this point.  but speaking of Anderson  (holycrap, why does it take so long for a 30 second video to upload??)



@ Iakus...  we can still hope .  its how they say - expect the worst, hope for the best

Modifié par jeweledleah, 09 novembre 2011 - 02:02 .

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote..
well, I suppose Shepard DOES become a traitor - twice.  what Shep will be in ME3 is anyone's guess at this point.  but speaking of Anderson  (holycrap, why does it take so long for a 30 second video to upload??)



@ Iakus...  we can still hope .  its how they say - expect the worst, hope for the best

Because youtube hates everyone. It took a 9 minute vid 2 hours to upload for me once.  

See Anderson I understand. He talks to Shepard. Let's Shep speak for his/herself even though he has suspicions. He keeps info close incase his suspicions are correct but doesn't act spiteful. I fully expected *that* to the VS stance. "I'm not gonna trust this until I can verify it but go ahead and tell me everything" if that had happened and they had told Shepard they needed to verify his/her info and get back to the alliance my Shepard would've been great. No need for screaming, no refusal to even hear someone out and they still leave. Would've been perfectly okay with this. Because if you're not in the know the situation does look bizarre. But Anderson realized chances were Shep was doing it for a good reason but was just being precautious. It's human. I'm not gonna fly off the handle because they didn't give my Shepard their life story and tell Shep everything top secret they were doing. All they needed to do for me to accept Horizon was listen. That's it. They don't even have to believe what Shep's saying. Just hear him out. Give him the *chance* to change their mind with the whole story instead of shutting him out the second they hear something they don't wanna hear. Instead they hear the beginning of the story and decide Shep doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt despite all they've been through. Ridculous. 

Blargh. I want my Shep steals the Normandy and runs off into the sunset telling everyone to kiss his ass ending. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 novembre 2011 - 02:11 .

[jeweledleah]

Ryzaki wrote...

jeweledleah wrote..
well, I suppose Shepard DOES become a traitor - twice.  what Shep will be in ME3 is anyone's guess at this point.  but speaking of Anderson  (holycrap, why does it take so long for a 30 second video to upload??)



@ Iakus...  we can still hope .  its how they say - expect the worst, hope for the best

Because youtube hates everyone. It took a 9 minute vid 2 hours to upload for me once.  

See Anderson I understand. He talks to Shepard. Let's Shep speak for his/herself even though he has suspicions. He keeps info close incase his suspicions are correct but doesn't act spiteful. I fully expected *that* to the VS stance. "I'm not gonna trust this until I can verify it but go ahead and tell me everything" if that had happened and they had told Shepard they needed to verify his/her info and get back to the alliance my Shepard would've been great. No need for screaming, no refusal to even hear someone out and they still leave. Would've been perfectly okay with this. Because if you're not in the know the situation does look bizarre. But Anderson realized chances were Shep was doing it for a good reason but was just being precautious. It's human. I'm not gonna fly off the handle because they didn't give my Shepard their life story and tell Shep everything top secret they were doing. All they needed to do for me to accept Horizon was listen. That's it. They don't even have to believe what Shep's saying. Just hear him out. Give him the *chance* to change their mind with the whole story instead of shutting him out the second they hear something they don't wanna hear. 

Blargh. I want my Shep steals the Normandy and runs off into the sunset telling everyone to kiss his ass ending. 

oh it would have been best.  even if they yelled a little at first and then calmed down and asked more questions - it would have been great.

but bioware wanted people to try out shiny new LI's so they didn't let either Shepard OR VS to fully talk it out.  and yes, that option for an endig would be quite lovely.  space pirates with Jack ftw

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...
oh it would have been best.  even if they yelled a little at first and then calmed down and asked more questions - it would have been great.

but bioware wanted people to try out shiny new LI's so they didn't let either Shepard OR VS to fully talk it out.  and yes, that option for an endig would be quite lovely.  space pirates with Jack ftw

It would've been. Heck Shep could've explained the countermeasure for the Seekerswarms so the collectors didn't *have* to magically stop abducting colonies (because the only reason Shep stopped them in time the first time was because it was a trap) they could've been caught off guard by yet another colony being prepared for their attack. 

Which is really odd. I hope there's no forced "OMG you cheater" drama because ugh. Just...ugh. Shep DIED the relationship ended once Shepard suffocated people (still I have to wonder if Shep remembers dying. That would be a sucky memory to have). It's not cheating! Though the new LIs were pretty awesome they really didn't need to do that to A/K to have it so people moved on. 

And yes though my paragon would be more like the A team in space. Probably will drag Garrus and Vega into it too.  And Thane for good measure. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 novembre 2011 - 02:19 .

[Iakus]

jeweledleah wrote...

well, I suppose Shepard DOES become a traitor - twice.  what Shep will be in ME3 is anyone's guess at this point.  

We already know:  Commander Shepard, Destroyer of Worlds.  Isn't that why he/she is on Earth?