527 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Rojahar wrote...
Well, you're saying that you don't trust them for not "standing by you" and doing as you do/command. You sound like you're just saying "It's OK to question me... but anyone who ultimately doesn't follow me is a traitor unworthy of trust."

Wrong that's not what I said. I said I didn't trust them for not falling for TIM's BS. A totally different thing. I also don't trust them for turning their back on and not even attempting to help someone they thought was mindraped. It's not a good look. And no I don't mean help as in go along with Shepard I mean help as in try to drag Shepard to the alliance medbay to see if he has a control chip implanted. That said I might not have been clear with it. 

My Sheps wants friends that he can count on to think for themselves instead of falling hook line and sinker for BS. They want friends who are by *his* side not some composite image of him they invented. He has that and is happy with it. It's not the VS though.

The second sentence is jumbled. (Because Wrex and Liara certainly aren't by Shepard's side in anything but spirit) however what I meant was they know Shepard. They know how he behaves. They know he's not an idiot. If he's working for Cerberus he has a good reason and good evidence behind it. They acknowledge that. They may not like it (and may even think he's a bit foolish for thinking he can use Cerberus without them using him [aka Tali]) but based off their history together they know he's not joining a terrorist group for kicks and giggles. Yes even renedouche. 

And no I wasn't saying the later at all. Otherwise I'd hate Anderson, Wrex, Liara and Tali (before I could recruit her) as well. ...I do hate Liara...but it's for other reasons. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2011 - 11:00 .

[Siansonea]

General User wrote...

Is it really enough to understand someone's reasons for acting a certain way, or making certain decisions?   At what point should they be held accountable for the consequences of those decisions regardless of why they made them?  In my eyes anyway, the single damning thing the VS's did was kneecap their own mission.

The fact is, subsequent events DID vindicate Shepard.   No matter the circumstances, being right matters.  What that means in this case is that the VS's owe Shepard and apology, or at least an admission of error, and that Shepard is entitled to at least one "I told you so" in ME3.

*first wave of Cerberus enemies attacks Shepard and the VS in ME3*

"You were saying, Shepard?"

Modifié par Siansonea II, 27 octobre 2011 - 10:55 .

[Xilizhra]

Siansonea II wrote...

General User wrote...

Is it really enough to understand someone's reasons for acting a certain way, or making certain decisions?   At what point should they be held accountable for the consequences of those decisions regardless of why they made them?  In my eyes anyway, the single damning thing the VS's did was kneecap their own mission.

The fact is, subsequent events DID vindicate Shepard.   No matter the circumstances, being right matters.  What that means in this case is that the VS's owe Shepard and apology, or at least an admission of error, and that Shepard is entitled to at least one "I told you so" in ME3.

*first wave of Cerberus enemies attacks Shepard and the VS in ME3*

"You were saying, Shepard?"

"What was once a mutually beneficial relationship has now terminated. We may now reconstruct our earlier alliance for the purpose of splattering Cerberus ass."

[alperez]

Siansonea II

Plus depending on what was the exact nature of the relationship between the VS and Shepard, knowing that info becomes even more important imo.

[Barquiel]

Siansonea II wrote...

General User wrote...

Is it really enough to understand someone's reasons for acting a certain way, or making certain decisions?   At what point should they be held accountable for the consequences of those decisions regardless of why they made them?  In my eyes anyway, the single damning thing the VS's did was kneecap their own mission.

The fact is, subsequent events DID vindicate Shepard.   No matter the circumstances, being right matters.  What that means in this case is that the VS's owe Shepard and apology, or at least an admission of error, and that Shepard is entitled to at least one "I told you so" in ME3.

*first wave of Cerberus enemies attacks Shepard and the VS in ME3*

"You were saying, Shepard?"

It doesn't change the fact that Cerberus saved the human colonies in the Terminus systems (...and I am not exactly a cerberus fan)

[alperez]

Ryzaki wrote...

[
Wrong that's not what I said. I said I didn't trust them for not falling for TIM's BS.

Yes indeed only an idiot would fall for TIM's line in BS, step forward Miranda, Jacod and a certain spectre named Shepard who all fell for his BS right up until the end point of the SM.

[Ryzaki]

alperez wrote...
Yes indeed only an idiot would fall for TIM's line in BS, step forward Miranda, Jacod and a certain spectre named Shepard who all fell for his BS right up until the end point of the SM.

Jacob? Jacob openly tells you TIM's a BSer so what are you talking about? If there's anything about Jacob it's early on everyone acknowledges he's not a fan of TIM "hiding BS behind a smile." Even TIM does! 

Miranda yeah that's one of her flaws TIM's her father figure and she believes in him. 

Shepard? Nope. Shepard only went along with it because he had no other options. (the closest Shep comes to falling for TIM's BS is the CS mission. Which...was a trap so it's not surprising they fell for it.) And...since when was TIM wanting to stop the collectors (and by the extension the Reapers) BS? TIM BS'd about a lot of things but not that. Even if he was after the tech as well he defintely wanted to stop the Reapers. 

Unlike the VS Shepard doesn't have evidence to prove contrary to TIM's words. Shep didn't have the benefit of having a collector willing to talk to him and explain itself and he instead snubbed it and walked off. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2011 - 11:10 .

[alperez]

Barquiel wrote...


It doesn't change the fact that Cerberus saved the human colonies in the Terminus systems (...and I am not exactly a cerberus fan)

The problem is though, the VS was actually out of action during Horizon, they come round to find most of the colony gone, a few collectors bodies scattered and Shepard and Cerberus working together, considering the brief they had regarding Cerberus taking the colonies, initially at least nothing they see or hear proves that this is still not what actually happened.

[General User]

alperez wrote...
But isn't it also a key in trying to restore a relationship that its important to understand the reasons someone acts a certain way?

Yes.  Responsibility and forgiveness are the keys to repairing the realtionship w/ the VS's.  The onus is on them for the former, and on Shepard for the later.  And, just to clarify; no, the failure of one party to live up their side no way dimishes the other side's obligation.

alperez wrote...
For example say your accused of being unfaithful by your significant other because someone has told her you were with someone else, then later on its proved you were faithful, would you not care about why you were accused in the first place and simply accept an apology and move on?

I would care about why I was accused.

alperez wrote...
Being right also doesn't preclude the fact that you could have been wrong,

Yes it does.

alperez wrote...
so yes while technically you could say Shepard is proved right, isn't the fact that we're going to be fighting against Cerberus also proof that the VS too was right.

Not yet it it isn't.

Modifié par General User, 27 octobre 2011 - 11:12 .

[General User]

Barquiel wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

General User wrote...

Is it really enough to understand someone's reasons for acting a certain way, or making certain decisions?   At what point should they be held accountable for the consequences of those decisions regardless of why they made them?  In my eyes anyway, the single damning thing the VS's did was kneecap their own mission.

The fact is, subsequent events DID vindicate Shepard.   No matter the circumstances, being right matters.  What that means in this case is that the VS's owe Shepard and apology, or at least an admission of error, and that Shepard is entitled to at least one "I told you so" in ME3.

*first wave of Cerberus enemies attacks Shepard and the VS in ME3*

"You were saying, Shepard?"

It doesn't change the fact that Cerberus saved the human colonies in the Terminus systems (...and I am not exactly a cerberus fan)

Quite so. 

Plus the circumstances surrounding Cerberus' being an adversary remain a mystery for the time being.  Only time will tell.

Modifié par General User, 27 octobre 2011 - 11:13 .

[alperez]

Ryzaki wrote...

Jacob? Jacob openly tells you TIM's a BSer so what are you talking about? 

Miranda yeah that's one of her flaws. 

Shepard? Nope. Shepard only went along with it because he had no other options. (the closest Shep comes to falling for TIM's BS is the CS mission. Which...was a trap so it's not surprising they fell for it.) 

Unlike the VS Shepard doesn't have evidence to prove contrary to TIM's words. 

Jacob tells you he doesn't trust cerberus but they get the job done and the job is what's important, since the jobs he does are given to him by TIM then how is this not falling for his BS.

Miranda believes completely everything TIM says, she continually defends the indefensible actions despite whatever evidence is offered and its only right at the end that they cross a line that she refuses to follow.

Shepard falls hook, line and sinker for TIM's BS, right up until the CS mission, he barely questions, then doesn't try to disprove anything TIM says to him, he's like the kid who refuses to see the magician for who he truly is.

As for your last line, i'm sorry but what are you trying to say here, that the VS has evidence to prove TIM's words contrary which if so wouldn't that prove the VS right, or that Shepard has no evidence to disprove TIM which if so wouldn't that prove he fell for the BS.

[Ryzaki]

Rojahar wrote...
So you hate anyone who doesn't support you, though you don't hold that standard to yourself for others?

 

Oh great we're back to the "you don't like the VS so you obviously don't like any characters that question you." tidbit. 

That's totally why I adoreFenris yo. Because my characters hate when he questions them about mages and goes on and on about how free mages are going to doom the average man (save Hawke mage or Bethany). <_< 

That's also why I love Sten and liked him challenging the Warden at Haven. Because I hate characters that question me yo. 

Really? You can't just acknowledge that I might just dislike the VS for his/her personality and the *way* they acted (both in ME1 and ME2 because I hated them in ME1 too)? That's such an impossibility? It has to be because they questioned my character? It has to be because they didn't follow? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2011 - 11:23 .

[Siansonea]

Barquiel wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

General User wrote...

Is it really enough to understand someone's reasons for acting a certain way, or making certain decisions?   At what point should they be held accountable for the consequences of those decisions regardless of why they made them?  In my eyes anyway, the single damning thing the VS's did was kneecap their own mission.

The fact is, subsequent events DID vindicate Shepard.   No matter the circumstances, being right matters.  What that means in this case is that the VS's owe Shepard and apology, or at least an admission of error, and that Shepard is entitled to at least one "I told you so" in ME3.

*first wave of Cerberus enemies attacks Shepard and the VS in ME3*

"You were saying, Shepard?"

It doesn't change the fact that Cerberus saved the human colonies in the Terminus systems (...and I am not exactly a cerberus fan)

Yes, that goal was achieved, at great cost. But was that the crucial task that Shepard should have been pursuing? That remains to be seen. While Shepard was dallying with the Reapers pathetic thralls, the Collectors, the Reapers had other irons in the fire, as we found out at the Alpha Relay. What if Shepard had gotten wind of that situation sooner? What if Shepard had knowledge of Amanda Kenson's situation before signing on with the Illusive Man? A partially constructed Human Reaper is less of a threat to the galaxy than an armada of full-fledged Reapers, that's just math. Saving human colonies is a worthwhile goal, but why was it Shepard's task? Answer: It wouldn't be, if not for TIM's insistence of a connection to the Reapers. If it was just batarians being jerks, Shepard wouldn't be involved. Shepard is chasing the Reapers. And instead of being alerted to the scores of them on the galactic doorstep, Shepard was sent to disable one prototype and kill off the Reapers pathetic all-but-discarded thralls, the Collectors. Do we think the loss of the Collectors and their station is a serious blow to the Reapers? I don't see how. The Baby Human Reaper didn't look that impressive, frankly, and the Collectors themselves were Keystone Kops. But hey, they sure kept Shepard busy for a long time...

[Siansonea]

General User wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

General User wrote...

Is it really enough to understand someone's reasons for acting a certain way, or making certain decisions?   At what point should they be held accountable for the consequences of those decisions regardless of why they made them?  In my eyes anyway, the single damning thing the VS's did was kneecap their own mission.

The fact is, subsequent events DID vindicate Shepard.   No matter the circumstances, being right matters.  What that means in this case is that the VS's owe Shepard and apology, or at least an admission of error, and that Shepard is entitled to at least one "I told you so" in ME3.

*first wave of Cerberus enemies attacks Shepard and the VS in ME3*

"You were saying, Shepard?"

It doesn't change the fact that Cerberus saved the human colonies in the Terminus systems (...and I am not exactly a cerberus fan)

Quite so. 

Plus the circumstances surrounding Cerberus' being an adversary remain a mystery for the time being.  Only time will tell.

Oh please. If your argument is that "Cerberus might still be the good guys" then you're just reaching at this point. 

[Ryzaki]

Jacob tells you he doesn't trust cerberus but they get the job done and the job is what's important, since the jobs he does are given to him by TIM then how is this not falling for his BS.

Miranda believes completely everything TIM says, she continually defends the indefensible actions despite whatever evidence is offered and its only right at the end that they cross a line that she refuses to follow.

Shepard falls hook, line and sinker for TIM's BS, right up until the CS mission, he barely questions, then doesn't try to disprove anything TIM says to him, he's like the kid who refuses to see the magician for who he truly is.

As for your last line, i'm sorry but what are you trying to say here, that the VS has evidence to prove TIM's words contrary which if so wouldn't that prove the VS right, or that Shepard has no evidence to disprove TIM which if so wouldn't that prove he fell for the BS.

So...him acknowledging a *fact* somehow equals him falling for TIM's BS? Um...what? 

I already said you were right about Miranda.

And...again with Shepard? Uh...no no he/she doesn't. He/she does question him/her and indeed requires proof before he/she throws his/her lot completely in with TIM (that's what Freedom's Progress was all about) so if your definition of BS = someone proving themselves right and you seeing that I don't know what to say.

Because they don't. They have no proof that Cerberus is behind the missing colonies, they have no proof that Shepard is participating in Cerberus' more brutal experiments, the only thing they have proof of is Shepard running around with Cerberus chasing after the aliens that are abducting the human colonies and fighting them.  

Meanwhile TIM tells Shepard about the abductions and Shepard gets proof of his words before deciding to competely work with him. (would've been better if Shepard could've gone to the council got yelled at out the room and then had no choice but to go to Cerberus but whateves). 

[ADLegend21]

alperez wrote...

Some people view the VS's actions on Horizon as a betrayal of Shepard, personally i believe while the action taken is a betrayal there are valid reasons why this takes place and once those reasons are understood the position the Vs takes is painted in a completely different light.

Horizon is a unique situation with complicated circumstances, it cannot occur again so the actions the VS takes on Horizon cannot be duplicated imo, some people however feel that because of the actions taken the VS has proved themselves to be untrustworthy and it requires the VS to re-prove themselves to Shepard.

NO. It is not a betrayal. The VS is loyal to the ALLIANCE. The Allaince comes before Shepard no matter what kind of Shepard it is. Shepard works for/with terroirists while on Horizon and the VS doesn't go because they have military obligations to the Alliance. If you ahve osmeon who will ditch the government of a species ot work for one person I do not want them on my team. Teh only way the VS could ahve been on Shepard's ship is if they were knocked out and kidnapped.

[JThompson6577]

To be fair, I don't want them to have the chance to re-prove their loyalty.

I want them gone. I want them dismissed. I want to set down on the nearest planet, hand them their bags and tell them to pound bricks.

You don't get to accuse someone of treason and ride on their ship as their gather a trustworthy team to save the galaxy.

alperez wrote...

Some people view the VS's actions on Horizon as a betrayal of Shepard, personally i believe while the action taken is a betrayal there are valid reasons why this takes place and once those reasons are understood the position the Vs takes is painted in a completely different light.

Horizon is a unique situation with complicated circumstances, it cannot occur again so the actions the VS takes on Horizon cannot be duplicated imo, some people however feel that because of the actions taken the VS has proved themselves to be untrustworthy and it requires the VS to re-prove themselves to Shepard.

[alperez]

General User

I mispoke when i said the fact you were right doesn't preclude that you could have been wrong, what i meant was that it didn't preclude the possibility that you could have been wrong.

Given the evidence the VS had at the time (or lack therof) the possibility that Shepard's actions were the wrong ones was a likely or possible scenario.

As for Cerberus fighting against us proving the VS was also right, irrespecitive of why Cerberus are doing what they're doing in ME3, the fact they are fighting against Shepard for whatever reason proves Shepard couldn't trust them.

Even if its part of some overall strategic masterplan that TIM believes will stop the reapers, it still shows that Cerberus can't be trusted as allies because they always put their own interests above everyone else.

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...

Easy fix:

VS: "What the hell, hero?"

Shepard: "Talk to Anderson, he'll tell you what's really going on. Contact me after you've talked to him. I can't really give you any detailed information now, for obvious reasons, but Anderson will be able to fill in the blanks."

Yep.  Instead we got:

Shepard:  Ash! Thank goodness you're alright!  Listen, the Collectors are the ones grabbing the colonies!  Here's some footage and omnitool data from Freedom's Progress!  Find Tali, she can verif...

Bioware ::assuming direct control::

Shepard:  Hey Ash.  Long time no see.  Wanna join Cerberus?  It'll be just like old times.

Ash:  What?  You traitor!  I can't believe I helped you steal an ALliance warship from the Citadel!

[Ryzaki]

I would've laughed if Shepard could've answered Ash/Kaidan's with the Normandy tidbit. 

Treason wasn't such a big deal then. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2011 - 11:32 .

[Xilizhra]

Yes, that goal was achieved, at great cost.

Was the cost really so great? I got a snazzy new ship, with an AI, plus I subverted an entire Cerberus cell into splitting off. And some Cerberus intel also allowed me to help Liara take out and then replace the Shadow Broker.

While Shepard was dallying with the Reapers pathetic thralls, the Collectors, the Reapers had other irons in the fire, as we found out at the Alpha Relay.

True, but the Collectors are rather dangerous. Note that we had protection against the seeker swarms, one of their nastier weapons, and so didn't really have to worry about their full range of abilities. Additionally, they can manifest Reaper avatars nearly at will, though those avatars do seem to be weaker than Saren and Grayson.

What if Shepard had gotten wind of that situation sooner? What if Shepard had knowledge of Amanda Kenson's situation before signing on with the Illusive Man?

Well, having a ship with proprietary stealth capabilities to even enter the Bahak system would be nice.

It wouldn't be, if not for TIM's insistence of a connection to the Reapers. If it was just batarians being jerks, Shepard wouldn't be involved. Shepard is chasing the Reapers. And instead of being alerted to the scores of them on the galactic doorstep, Shepard was sent to disable one prototype and kill off the Reapers pathetic all-but-discarded thralls, the Collectors. Do we think the loss of the Collectors and their station is a serious blow to the Reapers? I don't see how. The Baby Human Reaper didn't look that impressive, frankly, and the Collectors themselves were Keystone Kops. But hey, they sure kept Shepard busy for a long time...

Would Cerberus have even known about the Project? I can see how they might, but one would think that they'd try to sabotage it if they were trying to ensure the Arrival happened. Sure, maybe a Cerberus agent could have somehow ensured Object Rho was left lying around, but it'd be way safer to just blow up the asteroid, or send it crashing into some other planet.

[General User]

Siansonea II wrote...

General User wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

General User wrote...

Is it really enough to understand someone's reasons for acting a certain way, or making certain decisions?   At what point should they be held accountable for the consequences of those decisions regardless of why they made them?  In my eyes anyway, the single damning thing the VS's did was kneecap their own mission.

The fact is, subsequent events DID vindicate Shepard.   No matter the circumstances, being right matters.  What that means in this case is that the VS's owe Shepard and apology, or at least an admission of error, and that Shepard is entitled to at least one "I told you so" in ME3.

*first wave of Cerberus enemies attacks Shepard and the VS in ME3*

"You were saying, Shepard?"

It doesn't change the fact that Cerberus saved the human colonies in the Terminus systems (...and I am not exactly a cerberus fan)

Quite so. 

Plus the circumstances surrounding Cerberus' being an adversary remain a mystery for the time being.  Only time will tell.

Oh please. If your argument is that "Cerberus might still be the good guys" then you're just reaching at this point. 

Cerberus was never really "good" to begin with.  But they've done enough, for Shepard and for the galaxy, that I'm willing to wait until the facts are in before passing judgement.

[Quole]

How DOES the VS escape the collectors? WTF

[bleetman]

Personally? Sure, why not. Heck, I've had companions or allies in other rpgs that've started off by trying to kill whoever I was playing at the time, occasionally multiple times.

I think I can get over Ashley being a bit miffed.