527 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Quole wrote...

How DOES the VS escape the collectors? WTF

I don't know. They were awfully close to Lilith who was captured. 

I will die laughing if they're indoctrinated though. 

[Dave of Canada]

Ash / Kaidan should've been captured by the Collectors on Horizon, explaining why they aren't with you in ME2 and forcing you to go save them.

[Quole]

Seriously. It annoys  me to no end. Why was NO explanation given? Shepard dosnt even ask. They BETTER be indoctrinated in ME3.

Modifié par Quole, 27 octobre 2011 - 11:41 .

[alperez]

Ryzaki wrote...
SNipped
. 

Jacob despite whatever reservations he has about Cerberus or TIM still believes they get the job done, he now works for cerberus getting that job done, since TIM is basically the person who decides what the job is and then Jacob carries out that Job, he is in fact falling for the BS.

He's paying Lip service to not believing in Cerberus or TIM or their goals or motivations while at the same time accepting missions that further those goals and motivations, if that's not falling for the BS then what is.

Shepard barely questions TIM or in fact his own resurrection, like Jacob he offers tacit acknowledgement to his doubts while at the same time following along like a good boy on the path TIM has set out for him.

As someone else has pointed out given the events in Arrival, the entire path Shepard was on in me2 seems pointless, he's saved some colonies, destroyed the collectors while at the same time allowing the reapers to almost arrive, he accepts TIM's version of what needs to be done and that its the only route to stopping the collectors and therfore the reapers, without really trying to examine the possibilities of if there's another way to do both.

Going through the Omega relay on the word of Cerberus could have been the most stupid thing anyone ever did especially someone who supposedly made it his goal in life to stop the reapers, yet Shepard never questions either the possible pitfall of what he's about to do nor the possible ramifications of it, he instead accepts TIM's version that this is what needs to be done, based on freedoms progress, the CS and some other evidence that seemingly proves TIM right.

In fact after the CS its even worse, since that mission proves that TIM is not above sending Shepard into a situation without full disclosure of relevant info, something he could be doing in sending him through the Omega relay, yet Shepard again like a good boy follows the path set for him, so yes he falls for the BS.

So basically you were saying the VS has no proof that Shepard and cerberus are in league together for whatever reason and Shepard meanwhile has proof of what TIm say's because he saw it on Freedoms progress.

The VS has proof that Shepard is seemingly acting ooc, he's working with cerberus, which is completely against who he was 2 years previously. They also have proof of the lengths cereberus will go to in order to acheive their goals, by their own eyes during me1.

They then have proof that people can be controlled, manipulated, duped into doing things which they never would have before, Saren, Benezia, Shiala,.

So they come up with a theory or feeling that all these elements and Shepard's own responses create along with the situation they find themselves in on Horizon, that is that Shepard is changed, he no longer is who he was or stands for what he used to, his actions proof this, so he can no longer be trusted.

We off course know they're wrong in this theory, but then we have evidence they do not.

[General User]

alperez wrote...
I mispoke when i said the fact you were right doesn't preclude that you could have been wrong, what i meant was that it didn't preclude the possibility that you could have been wrong.

Yes, it did.

alperez wrote...
Given the evidence the VS had at the time (or lack therof) the possibility that Shepard's actions were the wrong ones was a likely or possible scenario.

It was very likely and extremely possible, also it was wrong.

alperez wrote...
As for Cerberus fighting against us proving the VS was also right, irrespecitive of why Cerberus are doing what they're doing in ME3, the fact they are fighting against Shepard for whatever reason proves Shepard couldn't trust them.

Shepard could never trust Cerberus (at least not in any sort comprehensive sense of the word).  I think Shepard is the one who puts it best by saying to Garrus, "If I'm going into Hell, I want you by my side."

alperez wrote...
Even if its part of some overall strategic masterplan that TIM believes will stop the reapers, it still shows that Cerberus can't be trusted as allies because they always put their own interests above everyone else.

Yes and no.  Cerberus can be trusted to pursue Cerberus' agenda.  Whether or not that agenda aligns with Shepard's largely depends on the Shepard.

Modifié par General User, 27 octobre 2011 - 11:59 .

[Drone223]

Quole wrote...

Seriously. It annoys  me to no end. Why was NO explanation given? Shepard dosnt even ask. They BETTER be indoctrinated in ME3.

I know introctrindation is the Reaper's best weapon, but the introctrindation excusse (sp) is getting a bit old

[Quole]

Drone223 wrote...

Quole wrote...

Seriously. It annoys  me to no end. Why was NO explanation given? Shepard dosnt even ask. They BETTER be indoctrinated in ME3.

I know introctrindation is the Reaper's best weapon, but the introctrindation excusse (sp) is getting a bit old

Its better than nothing.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

Eh.
That said I'm amused by the "OMG you don't like them so you obviously don't like independant characters!" from some people here. Funny how they're arguing that some people don't like others disagreeing with them so much they disregard the actual points that are being made and then...go ahead and display that same behavior. *slow clap* Bravo for proving your point. Bravo. 

If I see a guy walking down the street, I see a guy walking down the street. If I then say "I saw a guy walking down the street", that is an objective statement about an observation. If I say "I saw a guy walking down the street; I think he was on drugs, or at least retarded, because he was walking funny", that is speculating, with perhaps a few biases.

Based on the objective evidence of ME2's plot and happenstance of events thereof, I have concluded that the VS was completely right not to trust Shepard. There is nothing more to it. It has nothing about me liking or not liking the VS as a character; it is merely the observation that I have concluded from the game's plot and, specifically, Horizon. If nothing else, it was Shepard that's the problem, not the VS. And I can assure you I am not the only one looking at it from this angle.

[bleetman]

Same reason they didn't just take off and blast away at the colony whilst Shepard was groundside with their ship-gibbing lasers.

The Collectors are a bit thick.

[Ryzaki]

alperez wrote...

Jacob despite whatever reservations he has about Cerberus or TIM still believes they get the job done, he now works for cerberus getting that job done, since TIM is basically the person who decides what the job is and then Jacob carries out that Job, he is in fact falling for the BS.

He's paying Lip service to not believing in Cerberus or TIM or their goals or motivations while at the same time accepting missions that further those goals and motivations, if that's not falling for the BS then what is.

You consider doing a job falling for BS? What?  

According to that logic the VS is falling for the Council's "ah yes "reapers"." BS. 

After all there's no way Jacob could believe in a stronger humanity but not fall for TIM's every line. No way. 

Shepard barely questions TIM or in fact his own resurrection, like Jacob he offers tacit acknowledgement to his doubts while at the same time following along like a good boy on the path TIM has set out for him.

As someone else has pointed out given the events in Arrival, the entire path Shepard was on in me2 seems pointless, he's saved some colonies, destroyed the collectors while at the same time allowing the reapers to almost arrive, he accepts TIM's version of what needs to be done and that its the only route to stopping the collectors and therfore the reapers, without really trying to examine the possibilities of if there's another way to do both.

Yes how dare Shepard try to save people from being dragged off and being experiments. What a stupid thing to do.  As for not questioning his resurrection that was kind of boring but that was probably to hide the mindboggling stupidity that the Lazarus project was to start with. They should've just put him in a damn coma. 

Going through the Omega relay on the word of Cerberus could have been the most stupid thing anyone ever did especially someone who supposedly made it his goal in life to stop the reapers, yet Shepard never questions either the possible pitfall of what he's about to do nor the possible ramifications of it, he instead accepts TIM's version that this is what needs to be done, based on freedoms progress, the CS and some other evidence that seemingly proves TIM right.

Riiight. It's not like Shepard had any reason to think that was true. He wasn't attacked by a ship that somehow vanishes and no one's everseen before! He wasn't attacked by aliens that only a few people in the galaxy have ever seen yo! He's doing all that just on TIM's word! Yup. No evidence of TIM's words at all. 

In fact after the CS its even worse, since that mission proves that TIM is not above sending Shepard into a situation without full disclosure of relevant info, something he could be doing in sending him through the Omega relay, yet Shepard again like a good boy follows the path set for him, so yes he falls for the BS.

So basically you were saying the VS has no proof that Shepard and cerberus are in league together for whatever reason and Shepard meanwhile has proof of what TIm say's because he saw it on Freedoms progress.

The VS has proof that Shepard is seemingly acting ooc, he's working with cerberus, which is completely against who he was 2 years previously. They also have proof of the lengths cereberus will go to in order to acheive their goals, by their own eyes during me1.

They then have proof that people can be controlled, manipulated, duped into doing things which they never would have before, Saren, Benezia, Shiala,.

So they come up with a theory or feeling that all these elements and Shepard's own responses create along with the situation they find themselves in on Horizon, that is that Shepard is changed, he no longer is who he was or stands for what he used to, his actions proof this, so he can no longer be trusted.

We off course know they're wrong in this theory, but then we have evidence they do not.

Just...what? Your definition of falling for BS is very very different from mine suffice to say and yeah...I don't know what else to say other than I can't debate this. There's no ground for me to stand on even level with you. 

Edit: All those examples of OOCness you listed were indoctrination. If Shepard had been indoctrinated the VS would be Baby reaper goo. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 octobre 2011 - 12:21 .

[Wrathra]

The VS reacted logically. They have every reason not to trust Shepard, not the other way around.

Modifié par Wrathra, 28 octobre 2011 - 12:10 .

[Ryzaki]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Eh.
That said I'm amused by the "OMG you don't like them so you obviously don't like independant characters!" from some people here. Funny how they're arguing that some people don't like others disagreeing with them so much they disregard the actual points that are being made and then...go ahead and display that same behavior. *slow clap* Bravo for proving your point. Bravo. 

If I see a guy walking down the street, I see a guy walking down the street. If I then say "I saw a guy walking down the street", that is an objective statement about an observation. If I say "I saw a guy walking down the street; I think he was on drugs, or at least retarded, because he was walking funny", that is speculating, with perhaps a few biases.

Based on the objective evidence of ME2's plot and happenstance of events thereof, I have concluded that the VS was completely right not to trust Shepard. There is nothing more to it. It has nothing about me liking or not liking the VS as a character; it is merely the observation that I have concluded from the game's plot and, specifically, Horizon. If nothing else, it was Shepard that's the problem, not the VS. And I can assure you I am not the only one looking at it from this angle.

And there's nothing wrong with that. 

Just don't try to tell other people why they have their own views. Thats what annoys me. On either side. 

[alperez]

General User

Either i'm not explaining myself clearly (likely) or your misinterpreting what i meant.

So i'll try again, the fact that Shepard is later on proved right doesn't remove the fact that in the VS's mind the actions that Shepard is taking could be wrong at the time they make the choice of whether or not to support those actions.

So while they are later on proved wrong in not supporting Shepard and his actions, at the time they have to decide to make that choice they have valid reasons why the choice they make is from their perspective the right one.

Hope that clears it up, but probably not lol.

Irrespective of your feelings towards cerberus, the fact they are actively working against you personally is proof that the VS is right not to trust them because they will always in the end work towards their agenda whatever that may be.

They're attacking you as Shepard, for reasons unknown but since its you as Shepard who is trying to stop the reapers, they are in fact hindering your progress.

If you backed them up and believed in the same things they do its actually even worse because they're still attacking you personally, which again proves they couldn't be trusted or didn't share the same goals as you did.

Now it may turn out that its all part of some elaborate masterplan TIM has devised to stop the reapers, but since they're attacking you personally it still proves that they couldn't be trusted and Shepard should never have trusted them, which is the charge the VS levels at Shepard on horizon.

[Ravensword]

Siansonea II wrote...

They postulate that because Shepard's path turns out to be successful, i.e., that Shepard successfully stops the Collectors from assembling a "human Reaper", that the path they took to achieve that goal was justified. "The ends justifies the means", those Renegade wannabes will shout from the roof tops. Meanwhile, an armada of Reapers are headed for the Alpha Relay, rendering the strategic importance of said Human Reaper moot. That thing was months if not YEARS away from being completed, and in the meanwhilst the Reapers are well on their way to catching the galactic bus and Reaping us all. Can you say "misdirection'? Intentional or not, the entire storyline of ME2 amounts to a giant wild goose chase when you take the events of Arrival into account. The Collectors were abducting human colonies, but was TIM's plan the only workable one? Well, we'll never know, will we? Shepard didn't explore any other options, just went along with anything TIM said, with only the most impotent of objections to TIM's methods. I think if I was a loyal Alliance Marine who had served with Shepard, I would think something was fishy. Especially given Cerberus' actions toward the Alliance over the years. You know, murdering Admirals and scores of Marines on various planets, torture, vivisection, etc. Shepard used to be against all that stuff. Now Shepard's best buds with Cerberus? What the hell, hero?

Are you saying that the Collector Base should'nt have been destroyed and allow the Collectors to continue abducting humans?

Modifié par Ravensword, 28 octobre 2011 - 12:14 .

[Homebound]

Kaidan's a pretty cool guy, my Shepard can trust him.

[Apollo Starflare]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Ash / Kaidan should've been captured by the Collectors on Horizon, explaining why they aren't with you in ME2 and forcing you to go save them.

When Horizon was going down I was certain this was what was going to happen, to be honest I was somewhat pleasantly surprised when it didn't.

Maybe the area the VS and Lilith were in was one of the last to be processed and not all from that group were put on board? Maybe some of the collectors stage mock plays using the frozen colonists as props and thus the VS was still planet bound? Who knows and who cares? There are possible explanations, and Indoctrination would feel very cheap in my opinion; seems highly unlikely to boot.

[Ryzaki]

bleetman wrote...

Same reason they didn't just take off and blast away at the colony whilst Shepard was groundside with their ship-gibbing lasers.

The Collectors are a bit thick.

Not to mention leaving Shepard's corpse behind. 

[Siansonea]

General User wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

*snip*

Oh please. If your argument is that "Cerberus might still be the good guys" then you're just reaching at this point. 

Cerberus was never really "good" to begin with.  But they've done enough, for Shepard and for the galaxy, that I'm willing to wait until the facts are in before passing judgement.

But you'll pass judgment on the VS for daring to call Shepard out for committing treason? In case you were wondering, working for Cerberus is treason. The More You Know™.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 28 octobre 2011 - 12:23 .

[ADLegend21]

Quole wrote...

Seriously. It annoys  me to no end. Why was NO explanation given? Shepard dosnt even ask. They BETTER be indoctrinated in ME3.

No that's the quarians. they're already indoctrinated. that's why their eyes glow. controll has been assumed.

[Xilizhra]

But you'll pass judgment on the VS for daring to call Shepard out for committing treason? In case you were wondering, working for Cerberus is treason. The More You Know™.

Not really. Shepard is a Spectre and is entitled by the Council to work with Cerberus (at least, mine is) and Anderson's given it his okay as well.

[Quole]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Quole wrote...

Seriously. It annoys  me to no end. Why was NO explanation given? Shepard dosnt even ask. They BETTER be indoctrinated in ME3.

No that's the quarians. they're already indoctrinated. that's why their eyes glow. controll has been assumed.

Dont be mad that Kaidan is indoctrinated. Not his fault.

Modifié par Quole, 28 octobre 2011 - 12:30 .

[alperez]

Ryzaki wrote...

You consider doing a job falling for BS? What?  

According to that logic the VS is falling for the Council's "ah yes "reapers"." BS. 

After all there's no way Jacob could believe in a stronger humanity but not fall for TIM's every line. No way. 

He doesn't believe or share the goals of cerberus or TIM yet he accepts TIM's words that this job is for the betterment of whatever, thats falling for the BS.

He's told to do X he does X, he comes back from doing X and goes, well at least i don't accept TIM's BS, yet he still did X regardless, thats the point, his actions disprove his own words, if he really didn't accept the BS that's being fed to him then why does he accept that this job is so neccessary?

]

Yes how dare Shepard try to save people from being dragged off and being experiments. What a stupid thing to do. 

Shepards supposed goal in life is to stop the reapers, yet he accepts that going off on this wild goose chase involving the collectors is what he really needs to be concentrating on at that time. Meanwhile the reapers are moving towards the relay preparing to arrive, Shepard though is off elsewhere trying to stop a threat which is not just inferior but is much further away from being the main problem.

Riiight. It's not like Shepard had any reason to think that was true. He wasn't attacked by a ship that somehow vanishes and no one's everseen before! He wasn't attacked by aliens that only a few people in the galaxy have ever seen yo! He's doing all that just on TIM's word! Yup. No evidence of TIM's words at all. 

He's going through the Omega relay based on TIM's info that's where the collectors are, not based on the fact that a ship appeared and disappeare but based on TIM's examination of the evidence he collected and TIM's word that this is where they are located.

He doesn't question the interpretation of the evidence or that he may be getting sent into another trap, despite the fact that he's been set up by TIM on the CS he still just accepts his word.

Just...what? Your definition of falling for BS is very very different from mine suffice to say and yeah...I don't know what else to say other than I can't debate this. There's no ground for me to stand on even level with you. 

So i give reasons why the VS could believe what they believe, reasons theycan come up with based on their own experiences, rather than dispute those reasons you then decide there's no point in debating them and try to suggest that we have different definitions of falling for BS.

Your original Point was in relation to people falling for TIM's BS was to suggest that the VS fell for it and others did not, i've offered reasons why they were susceptible to it, so perhaps your right maybe we shouldn't debate since its clearly not something you originally intended.

[Siansonea]

Xilizhra wrote...

But you'll pass judgment on the VS for daring to call Shepard out for committing treason? In case you were wondering, working for Cerberus is treason. The More You Know™.

Not really. Shepard is a Spectre and is entitled by the Council to work with Cerberus (at least, mine is) and Anderson's given it his okay as well.

Actually, Shepard is officially a dead Spectre/former Alliance Marine. How does the VS know if Shepard has been reinstated as a Spectre, especially since, you know, as far as the VS knows, Shepard died over Alchera two years ago? And then there's the suspicious nature of Shepard still being alive after two years of everyone thinking Shepard is dead. Why would the VS believe some ****-and-bull story about Shepard being in a coma for two years while Cerberus "rebuilt" Shepard? That sounds ridiculous. The fact that it's actually what happened (or so we think) doesn't make it any less ridiculous.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 28 octobre 2011 - 12:32 .

[Ryzaki]

alperez wrote...


He doesn't believe or share the goals of cerberus or TIM yet he accepts TIM's words that this job is for the betterment of whatever, thats falling for the BS.

He's told to do X he does X, he comes back from doing X and goes, well at least i don't accept TIM's BS, yet he still did X regardless, thats the point, his actions disprove his own words, if he really didn't accept the BS that's being fed to him then why does he accept that this job is so neccessary?

Right so I suppose all the soldiers fighting in wars automatically believe in every single war right? Every single member of a cigarrette corporation believes in what they're doing. There's no such thing in believing in part of something or trying to get a paycheck eh? 

He doesn't *believe* TIM's BS but he's doing the job because he's helping people. Or did his story about stopping the murder of the council go completely over your head? The same is happening with Shepard's mission. 

Shepards supposed goal in life is to stop the reapers, yet he accepts that going off on this wild goose chase involving the collectors is what he really needs to be concentrating on at that time. Meanwhile the reapers are moving towards the relay preparing to arrive, Shepard though is off elsewhere trying to stop a threat which is not just inferior but is much further away from being the main problem.

Uh no. *Your* Shepard's goal maybe be that mine is to save people's lives. 

And of course! It's not like the Collectors are connected to the Reapers! There's no way the Reapers are building a power base for when they come and attack! And it totally makes sense to go on a wild goose chase (with no resources) for the Reapers. Brilliance. 

He's going through the Omega relay based on TIM's info that's where the collectors are, not based on the fact that a ship appeared and disappeare but based on TIM's examination of the evidence he collected and TIM's word that this is where they are located.

He doesn't question the interpretation of the evidence or that he may be getting sent into another trap, despite the fact that he's been set up by TIM on the CS he still just accepts his word.

I suppose EDI is meaningless eh? As is Legion? As is the IFF? Shepard has evidence to back of TIM's words. Full stop. No matter how much you want to insist TIM is being demanding and Shepard is playing along with his tune TIM's assumptions have basis. Actual tangible proof. Like Shepard working with Cerberus proof not Cerberus is behind the colonies disappearence proof.

So i give reasons why the VS could believe what they believe, reasons theycan come up with based on their own experiences, rather than dispute those reasons you then decide there's no point in debating them and try to suggest that we have different definitions of falling for BS.

Your original Point was in relation to people falling for TIM's BS was to suggest that the VS fell for it and others did not, i've offered reasons why they were susceptible to it, so perhaps your right maybe we shouldn't debate since its clearly not something you originally intended.

So they think Shepard is indoctrinated by Cerberus...without Cerberus ever showing the ability to indoctrinate anyone else? Or have it so the indoctrination doesn't work in the Reapers favor? 

My original point was in relation to them falling for TIM's BS hook line and sinker when there was no proof. That's the reason it's BS. 

Tim's words about the Collector's aren't BS. Why? It's true. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 octobre 2011 - 01:04 .