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[Siansonea]

General User wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Maybe you don't understand something. Running off with Cerberus is a teensy-weensy bit of a court-martial offense for an active duty Alliance Marine.

The VSs are considerably more than regular soldiers at this point.  Horizon represents something for them, even if no one intended for it to happen.  It was a chance for them to show they could play the game at Shepard's level and, for round one at least, they crapped out.

...or the VS's mission on Horizon was strictly to install the the defense towers and nothing more.  But I doubt that.

Siansonea II wrote...
Or maybe you missed the part where Cerberus killed Admiral Kahoku, the Marines on Akuze and Edolus, experimented on Corporal Toombs, experimented on rachni and thorian creepers and humans, and all of the other miscellaneous atrocities that the Alliance knows about.

All good reasons not to trust Cerberus or anyone working with them.  None of which change the fact that deciding not to trust was the wrong call.

Siansonea II wrote...
Maybe you think an Alliance soldier has Spectre-level autonomy. Or maybe you're just smoking some wacky tabacky. In any case, if Kaidan or Ashley were to scamper off with Shepard on the Cerberus Faux-Normandy, I'm pretty sure the Alliance high command wouldn't be terribly pleased.

I can think of at least two (probably three) senior level Alliance leaders who would be rather understanding.  Probably a great many more, especially if TIM took a hand, but that's admittedly speculative.

Do the world a favor. Don't EVER join any kind of military organization. You'd only be setting yourself up for some REALLY unpleasant wake-up calls down the road. Hint: you don't get to work for terrorist groups who actively oppose your government if you are a member of that government's military. They might put you on trial. Or, they might kill you. Hey, I may have just saved your life! You're welcome.

And I for one applaud Kaidan and Ashley for standing up to that idiot Shepard. Seriously, who joins Cerberus? The first time I played the game, I was looking for the "tell Cerberus to go to hell" dialogue options. I was flabbergasted that there weren't any. 

[Ravensword]

Siansonea II wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

General User wrote...


Light treason.

And the facts are in on that.
Besides the VSs did more than call Shepard out, they also bungled the mission they were on.

Yeah, because being incapacitated by seeker swarms is "bungling a mission". You've just got your hate on for the VS, because they called you out for your "light treason", let's not kid ourselves. Besides, if this is your gold standard of "bungling a mission" then you must really think Shepard is a first class idiot for getting the Normandy SR1 destroyed.

Shepard doesn't pilot the Normandy.

...and the VS isn't an AA gun programmer, and isn't immune to heretofore-unknown seeker swarms. Oh wait, there is one group that has the technology to deal with seeker swarms—Shepard's crew on the Normandy. But does Shepard SHARE that tech with the Alliance? No. So again, the VS being paralyzed by alien insects is kinda not their fault.

That's b/c Mordiin had just barely finished the countermeasure to the seeker swarms before going to to Horizon. As for the Alliance needing that tech? A moot point. The VS's encounter w/ the seeker swarms on Horizon is likely to be the one and only time the Alliance ever encounted them. Also, I don't blame rthe VS for getting paralyzed by insects. What does interest me is how VWS managed to free him/herself despite the fact that one of the colonists, Lilith, was right next to her and was abducted.

...what's interesting to ME is that SHEPARD knew about seeker swarms since Freedom's Progress, and didn't give ANYONE a head's up. Neither did Tali. Yeah, I'm not breaking out my violin because Shepard got called on the carpet for "betraying everything we stood for". Because Shepard DID do just that by getting into bed with Cerberus. Don't want people to call you a traitor? Don't join a terrorist organization. Just FYI.

Well, there's nothing that can be done about joining Cerberus. It's canon. And so what if Tali didn't send information about the seekers to the Alliance. She wasn't oblgated to do so and it wasn't her concern. As for Shepard not giving information about the Collectors to Anderson was quite obviously an oversight by the writers. Nothing really makes sense about how those parts of act 1. What I really want to know was why the VS didn't get kidnapped whne Lilith who was on the ground in front of her got abducted? Could you answer that for me even if it's speculation?

[Abispa]

LadyofRivendell wrote...

Dang, you people write a lot when you're arguing.

Almost as much as we do when we're eating.

[General User]

jreezy wrote...

General User wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Yeah, because being incapacitated by seeker swarms is "bungling a mission". You've just got your hate on for the VS, because they called you out for your "light treason", let's not kid ourselves. Besides, if this is your gold standard of "bungling a mission" then you must really think Shepard is a first class idiot for getting the Normandy SR1 destroyed.

The VSs didn't bungle their mission by getting paralyzed.  They bungled it by not going with Shepard after the Collectors had been driven off, trust or no.

Actually, I'll go one better.  If the VSs did trust Shepard then I would hold them as even more suspect than I do now.

The VS's mission was not to go with Shepard, at all. They have an obligatiion to the Alliance not Shepard.

But what was their mission on Horizon?  To install the defense batteries?  Or to investigate the colony attacks?

I say both.  But much more the latter.  If so, then rejecting Shepard's offer is tantamount to throwing their mission out the window.  If it was strictly the former then reporting in after meeting Shepard was an obligation they could not have shirked no matter what any of them may or may not have wanted or should or should not have done. 

[Abispa]

General User wrote...

But what was their mission on Horizon?

Basically it was to stand there and watch our Shepards make asses of themselves. Then they could give us the reason they won't be available for the suicide mission.

Until LotSB came out, their reason for not joining was more believable, and less of a "betrayal," than Liara's.

[General User]

Siansonea II wrote...
Do the world a favor. Don't EVER join any kind of military organization. You'd only be setting yourself up for some REALLY unpleasant wake-up calls down the road. Hint: you don't get to work for terrorist groups who actively oppose your government if you are a member of that government's military. They might put you on trial. Or, they might kill you. Hey, I may have just saved your life! You're welcome.

It's not always that simple.  Especially outside of the more conventional military/intelligence/law-enforcement communities.

Siansonea II wrote...
Seriously, who joins Cerberus?

Idealogues, idealists, the exhuasted, the ambitous and the desperate.

Siansonea II wrote...
The first time I played the game, I was looking for the "tell Cerberus to go to hell" dialogue options. I was flabbergasted that there weren't any. 

There's blowing up the Collector Base.  

[Siansonea]

Ravensword wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

*snip*
...what's interesting to ME is that SHEPARD knew about seeker swarms since Freedom's Progress, and didn't give ANYONE a head's up. Neither did Tali. Yeah, I'm not breaking out my violin because Shepard got called on the carpet for "betraying everything we stood for". Because Shepard DID do just that by getting into bed with Cerberus. Don't want people to call you a traitor? Don't join a terrorist organization. Just FYI.

Well, there's nothing that can be done about joining Cerberus. It's canon. And so what if Tali didn't send information about the seekers to the Alliance. She wasn't oblgated to do so and it wasn't her concern. As for Shepard not giving information about the Collectors to Anderson was quite obviously an oversight by the writers. Nothing really makes sense about how those parts of act 1. What I really want to know was why the VS didn't get kidnapped whne Lilith who was on the ground in front of her got abducted? Could you answer that for me even if it's speculation?

...oh no no no. You don't get to use the "writer oversight" handwave to excuse Shepard from not giving the Alliance information about the Collectors , while simultaneously demanding to know why the VS managed to be among the colonists who weren't Collected. Maybe the Collectors grabbed all of the prone people first, and were going to come back for the ones who were still standing up. Maybe the people who are paralyzed while on the ground are in danger of dying from aspirating their own vomit or something, so they're collected first. After all, the Collectors obviously want living humans, or they'd just kill the colonists and stack them like cord wood.

[Ryzaki]

Abispa wrote...

Wow! A VS thread with Siansonia II and Ryzaki arguing in it! Good times.

And I see a certain someone has stolen a my post from another thread and made it her own.

I think that there are so many plot holes in ME2 that become more obvious with time, Horizon's confrontation just being one. In fact, I now consider ME2 to be DA2 with more and better scenery.

I think most of it is due to clumsy committee writing, but I agree with Ryzaki that IF Bioware wants to now try to have those hole make sense in ME3, there should be an option for Siansonea II to reconcile with the VS, for Ryzaki to throw them out an airlock for their "betrayal," and for me to take Ashley by the hand to the nearest show for a steamy sex scene.

EDIT: I should add that I have, and still do, enjoy DA2 and ME2, flaws and all. I hope ME3 and DA3 are much improved.

And this way everyone wins. <3

[Siansonea]

General User wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Do the world a favor. Don't EVER join any kind of military organization. You'd only be setting yourself up for some REALLY unpleasant wake-up calls down the road. Hint: you don't get to work for terrorist groups who actively oppose your government if you are a member of that government's military. They might put you on trial. Or, they might kill you. Hey, I may have just saved your life! You're welcome.

It's not always that simple.  Especially outside of the more conventional military/intelligence/law-enforcement communities.

It's your funeral pal. Don't say I didn't warn you. 

Siansonea II wrote...
Seriously, who joins Cerberus?

Idealogues, idealists, the exhuasted, the ambitous and the desperate.

In other words, terrorists.

Siansonea II wrote...
The first time I played the game, I was looking for the "tell Cerberus to go to hell" dialogue options. I was flabbergasted that there weren't any. 

There's blowing up the Collector Base.  

Too little, too late.

[Abispa]

Siansonea II wrote...

...oh no no no. You don't get to use the "writer oversight" handwave to excuse Shepard from not giving the Alliance information about the Collectors , while simultaneously demanding to know why the VS managed to be among the colonists who weren't Collected. Maybe the Collectors grabbed all of the prone people first, and were going to come back for the ones who were still standing up. Maybe the people who are paralyzed while on the ground are in danger of dying from aspirating their own vomit or something, so they're collected first. After all, the Collectors obviously want living humans, or they'd just kill the colonists and stack them like cord wood.

But, Mom, using the "writer oversight" excuse to justify our positions, and then denying our opponents the same opportunity, is a time honored tradition on these threads!

[Siansonea]

Ryzaki wrote...

Abispa wrote...

Wow! A VS thread with Siansonia II and Ryzaki arguing in it! Good times.

And I see a certain someone has stolen a my post from another thread and made it her own.

I think that there are so many plot holes in ME2 that become more obvious with time, Horizon's confrontation just being one. In fact, I now consider ME2 to be DA2 with more and better scenery.

I think most of it is due to clumsy committee writing, but I agree with Ryzaki that IF Bioware wants to now try to have those hole make sense in ME3, there should be an option for Siansonea II to reconcile with the VS, for Ryzaki to throw them out an airlock for their "betrayal," and for me to take Ashley by the hand to the nearest show for a steamy sex scene.

EDIT: I should add that I have, and still do, enjoy DA2 and ME2, flaws and all. I hope ME3 and DA3 are much improved.

And this way everyone wins. <3

For what it's worth, at least one of my Shepard's would explore each of those options. My Vanguard would reconcile, my Soldier would airlock Kaidan, and my Infiltrator would do the steamy sexytimes with Ashley. 

[General User]

jreezy wrote...

General User wrote...
But what was their mission on Horizon?  To install the defense batteries?  Or to investigate the colony attacks?

I say both.  But much more the latter.  If so, then rejecting Shepard's offer is tantamount to throwing their mission out the window.  If it was strictly the former then reporting in after meeting Shepard was an obligation they could not have shirked no matter what any of them may or may not have wanted or should or should not have done. 

They investigated the colony attacks and reported on it. What would they need to go with Shepard for since they believed they already had enough information to make a proper report?

That's the problem.  They believed something that wasn't true.  And because the acted on that belief their report was incomplete at the very least.

[Siansonea]

Abispa wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

...oh no no no. You don't get to use the "writer oversight" handwave to excuse Shepard from not giving the Alliance information about the Collectors , while simultaneously demanding to know why the VS managed to be among the colonists who weren't Collected. Maybe the Collectors grabbed all of the prone people first, and were going to come back for the ones who were still standing up. Maybe the people who are paralyzed while on the ground are in danger of dying from aspirating their own vomit or something, so they're collected first. After all, the Collectors obviously want living humans, or they'd just kill the colonists and stack them like cord wood.

But, Mom, using the "writer oversight" excuse to justify our positions, and then denying our opponents the same opportunity, is a time honored tradition on these threads!

Now now, don't make me go get my rolling pin...

[Ravensword]

Siansonea II wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

*snip*
...what's interesting to ME is that SHEPARD knew about seeker swarms since Freedom's Progress, and didn't give ANYONE a head's up. Neither did Tali. Yeah, I'm not breaking out my violin because Shepard got called on the carpet for "betraying everything we stood for". Because Shepard DID do just that by getting into bed with Cerberus. Don't want people to call you a traitor? Don't join a terrorist organization. Just FYI.

Well, there's nothing that can be done about joining Cerberus. It's canon. And so what if Tali didn't send information about the seekers to the Alliance. She wasn't oblgated to do so and it wasn't her concern. As for Shepard not giving information about the Collectors to Anderson was quite obviously an oversight by the writers. Nothing really makes sense about how those parts of act 1. What I really want to know was why the VS didn't get kidnapped whne Lilith who was on the ground in front of her got abducted? Could you answer that for me even if it's speculation?

...oh no no no. You don't get to use the "writer oversight" handwave to excuse Shepard from not giving the Alliance information about the Collectors , while simultaneously demanding to know why the VS managed to be among the colonists who weren't Collected. Maybe the Collectors grabbed all of the prone people first, and were going to come back for the ones who were still standing up. Maybe the people who are paralyzed while on the ground are in danger of dying from aspirating their own vomit or something, so they're collected first. After all, the Collectors obviously want living humans, or they'd just kill the colonists and stack them like cord wood.

I said speculation not wishful thinking.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

I never trusted them from the start, because I never knew them as much as I know the characters in ME2, not even after playing ME1.

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 28 octobre 2011 - 02:53 .

[HogarthHughes 3]

Sort of, I was rather irritated that Ashley seemed to think my Shepard was some knight in shining armor in the first place though (given that they were best buds in ME1). He's ruthless: aka will kill innocents, sacrifice his own troops, commit genocide on advanced sapient life (which Ashley supported), etc. It was established early on that he'd do almost anything if he deemed it necessary, he never "stood for" much in the way of moral values. I thought Ashley knew that in ME1, but apparently working with Cerberus (the only damn organization that acknowledges and are taking steps to really prepare for the Reaper threat, that already is a good reason to join them) to take down Reaper servants is crossing a big line for her.

I'm curious as to how squadmates will handle ruthless actions in ME3, so far they've been pretty indifferent. Hopefully Lance won't have to put up with too much whining, if they disagree with him so damn much then why follow him? Either they trust his judgement or they don't, if Ashley still doesn't in ME3 then Lance will look for ways to remove her from the Normandy.

[Siansonea]

Ravensword wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

*snip*
...what's interesting to ME is that SHEPARD knew about seeker swarms since Freedom's Progress, and didn't give ANYONE a head's up. Neither did Tali. Yeah, I'm not breaking out my violin because Shepard got called on the carpet for "betraying everything we stood for". Because Shepard DID do just that by getting into bed with Cerberus. Don't want people to call you a traitor? Don't join a terrorist organization. Just FYI.

Well, there's nothing that can be done about joining Cerberus. It's canon. And so what if Tali didn't send information about the seekers to the Alliance. She wasn't oblgated to do so and it wasn't her concern. As for Shepard not giving information about the Collectors to Anderson was quite obviously an oversight by the writers. Nothing really makes sense about how those parts of act 1. What I really want to know was why the VS didn't get kidnapped whne Lilith who was on the ground in front of her got abducted? Could you answer that for me even if it's speculation?

...oh no no no. You don't get to use the "writer oversight" handwave to excuse Shepard from not giving the Alliance information about the Collectors , while simultaneously demanding to know why the VS managed to be among the colonists who weren't Collected. Maybe the Collectors grabbed all of the prone people first, and were going to come back for the ones who were still standing up. Maybe the people who are paralyzed while on the ground are in danger of dying from aspirating their own vomit or something, so they're collected first. After all, the Collectors obviously want living humans, or they'd just kill the colonists and stack them like cord wood.

I said speculation not wishful thinking.

Well, by all means, let's hear your hypothesis. 

[Abispa]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

I'm curious as to how squadmates will handle ruthless actions in ME3, so far they've been pretty indifferent.

Possibly a line of dialogue giving their moral view, but the crew will act the same for renegade or paragons, I'm guessing. The only true reactions I can see being in ME3 are those promised situations where Shepard makes a decision that helps one ally at the expense of another (Geth vs. Quarians, Miranda vs. Jack, Council vs. Alliance, etc.).

[Ravensword]

Siansonea II wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

*snip*
...what's interesting to ME is that SHEPARD knew about seeker swarms since Freedom's Progress, and didn't give ANYONE a head's up. Neither did Tali. Yeah, I'm not breaking out my violin because Shepard got called on the carpet for "betraying everything we stood for". Because Shepard DID do just that by getting into bed with Cerberus. Don't want people to call you a traitor? Don't join a terrorist organization. Just FYI.

Well, there's nothing that can be done about joining Cerberus. It's canon. And so what if Tali didn't send information about the seekers to the Alliance. She wasn't oblgated to do so and it wasn't her concern. As for Shepard not giving information about the Collectors to Anderson was quite obviously an oversight by the writers. Nothing really makes sense about how those parts of act 1. What I really want to know was why the VS didn't get kidnapped whne Lilith who was on the ground in front of her got abducted? Could you answer that for me even if it's speculation?

...oh no no no. You don't get to use the "writer oversight" handwave to excuse Shepard from not giving the Alliance information about the Collectors , while simultaneously demanding to know why the VS managed to be among the colonists who weren't Collected. Maybe the Collectors grabbed all of the prone people first, and were going to come back for the ones who were still standing up. Maybe the people who are paralyzed while on the ground are in danger of dying from aspirating their own vomit or something, so they're collected first. After all, the Collectors obviously want living humans, or they'd just kill the colonists and stack them like cord wood.

I said speculation not wishful thinking.

Well, by all means, let's hear your hypothesis. 

Oh, I have none b/c I really don't care about the VS beyond this argument.

[General User]

Siansonea II wrote...
It's your funeral pal. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Thanks!  I appreciate the warning.

Siansonea II wrote...In other words, terrorists.

They certainly become terrorists.  Or at least a significant number of them do.  Others become heros.  Or at least a significant number of them do.  Cerberus is known for many things, moderation is not one of them.

Modifié par General User, 28 octobre 2011 - 03:03 .

[Siansonea]

General User wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
It's your funeral pal. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Thanks!  I appreciate the warning.

Siansonea II wrote...In other words, terrorists.

They certainly become terrorists.  Or at least a significant number of them do.  Others become heros.  Or at least a significant number of them do.  Cerberus is known for many things, moderation is not one of them.

Cerberus IS known for many things. And they're all CRIMES. Seriously, you need to lay off the mind-altering substances. 

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Nope, never truly did. I still feel like I hardly know the VS, after playing ME2 first and THEN completing me1 (wish felt like everything was dumbed down).

It wouldn't surprise me if the VS was indoctrinated somehow in ME3 (for those who had NO relationship).

And I dislike the fact the they gained Spectre Status, and SO DAMN easily compared to us (Shepard).