527 réponses à ce sujet

[jeweledleah]

actually the theory about collectors picking up people that are laying down can explain it. after all when you just land - you keep moving through the parts of the colony that collectors already supposedly cleared out and yet... there are people there, frozen in stasis. all of them standing up in some fashion.

and Lilith made it away from VS at least some distance. she ran, kept running, lost a colonist and THEN she cot stung.

and no, VS is most certainly NOT indoctrinated. why? becasue indoctrination is a gradual process of reaper/reaper artifact exposure. it doesn't happen in a few hours, it happens in weeks, months. VS simply had no time to get indoctrinated. heck collectors weren't at the colony long enough to have its inhabitants get converted into husks. they actually brought husks with them. and even full huskification takes hours.

[Quole]

jeweledleah wrote...

actually the theory about collectors picking up people that are laying down can explain it. after all when you just land - you keep moving through the parts of the colony that collectors already supposedly cleared out and yet... there are people there, frozen in stasis. all of them standing up in some fashion.

and Lilith made it away from VS at least some distance. she ran, kept running, lost a colonist and THEN she cot stung.

and no, VS is most certainly NOT indoctrinated. why? becasue indoctrination is a gradual process of reaper/reaper artifact exposure. it doesn't happen in a few hours, it happens in weeks, months. VS simply had no time to get indoctrinated. heck collectors weren't at the colony long enough to have its inhabitants get converted into husks. they actually brought husks with them. and even full huskification takes hours.

That is still no excuse for what happened.

[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...
I think the opint was that prior to Horizon, SHepard had zero evidence that the Reapers were involved with the missing colonies at all.  It's was only on TIM's say-so that the Reapers and Collectors were linked.  While saving the colonies would qualify as a good thing, it was still entirely possible that TIM was just stringing Shep along fro some nefarious, non-Reaper purpose.  In which case, the VS would have been absolutely right.

And yeah, coma would have been much better.  Badly injured, needs top of the line surgery and cybernetics to survive.  Much easier to swallow.

Heck a CASIE implant could even explain most of Shepard's recruitment missions:lol:

Ah true. But either way why on earth would Shepard let a strange race of aliens (that only become so interested in humanity *after* he kills a Reaper) run off with hundreds of thousands of colonists? It's just counterproductive to my Shepard's goal of helping humanity. 

Ah kind of hard for TIM to string Shepard along for some nefarious non-Reaper purpose when he's breaking the bank just to get Shepard to chase after some space bugs. ...Space bugs that keep mentioning how much they want Shep's body at that. At worst he was using Shepard as a test subject for some live best soldier testing. TIM would have to be more obsessed with Shepard than Liara. ...and that's kind of disturbing.  Nah I'm pretty sure TIM was being legit on that front. He might've wanted Shepard to eventually smooth into working for Cerberus but he certainly wasn't going to dump Shepard into something like Overlord given Shep's tendancy to blow things up when he gets upset. Seducing Shepard to Cerberus would need to be very very carefully planned and executed. And well...the CB kind of blows that plan to hell with all my Sheps (save one). 

That and if he was so nefarious why on earth would he stop Miranda's control chip scheme? There's no reason not to use it in that case. 

And a CASIE implant would've been hilarious. 

"I never asked for this." 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 octobre 2011 - 06:55 .

[CptData]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Some people literally cannot stand when their companions confront them, or have doubts, or question their leadership.

These characters are usually - but not always - my favorites. In every case though, I like that they have an independent thought process. Disagreement is not a problem for me as such, and while not every poster who demands utter devotion from their companions due to the Protagonist's Awesome Ego strikes me as silly... most do.

If you're the leader of a group you usually need someone that has a different opinion on a point and keeps you grounded. That applies in ME for Ashley (more) and Kaidan (less) and for Jacob in ME2. I guess ppl hate getting lectured if they're in charge - but a good leader needs different pov to pick the right decision.

[Drone223]

CptData wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Some people literally cannot stand when their companions confront them, or have doubts, or question their leadership.

These characters are usually - but not always - my favorites. In every case though, I like that they have an independent thought process. Disagreement is not a problem for me as such, and while not every poster who demands utter devotion from their companions due to the Protagonist's Awesome Ego strikes me as silly... most do.

If you're the leader of a group you usually need someone that has a different opinion on a point and keeps you grounded. That applies in ME for Ashley (more) and Kaidan (less) and for Jacob in ME2. I guess ppl hate getting lectured if they're in charge - but a good leader needs different pov to pick the right decision.

^This

[mostlylurker]

Quole wrote...

The VS is clearly indoctrinated. So no I dont. Theres no other way they could have escaped the collectors. Seriously someone speculate with me. No other plot hole has bothered me as much as that.

Well, this whole "possible indoctrination" issue bothers me a bit too, but imo if something DID happen to the VS on Horizon, Bioware would be guilty of a kind of an oversight. I'm talking about the intro where the colony is attacked and both Kaidan and Ashley react in the same way (yea I know, it's probably the VS-is-one-character treatment), that is - they start shooting at the swarm. Now for Ashley that's an understandable reaction, she's a soldier after all. But any biotic with half a brain would use Barrier first and/or Throw to deal with an incoming cloud of flying bugs (or at least that's my opinion). Perhaps a barrier would be enough for Kaidan to get to safety or at least avoid being paralyzed/indoctrinated (bit like we do during the suicide mission).

Well, I dunno. That's just a thought. Kind of makes me think that if the VS got indoctrinated then well... either Kaidan didn't remember how to use biotics or Bioware forgot that he is a biotic.

[V-rex]

Honestly I think that these motivations are kind of pushing it, granted I get sick of the self righteous way some Garrus and Tali fans shove in our faces the fact that their favorite characters returned and ours didn't hence their's are just 'better' but frankly I think we should take the high ground and not stoop to that level.
Besides which I really hate to have to say this but Horizon WAS a mistake on the VS's part, they didn't have to come with but they could have done a better job listening, not that Shepard did a great job explaining but all the same, not great.
Thing is I LOVE Ashley in Mass Effect and while Horizon wasn't enough to qualify as a dealbreaker I have to accept the fact that it was a resoundingly negative thing, not nearly enough to make my Shepard give up on Ash but a negative thing regardless.
I can like something while also criticising it, it shouldn't have to be all or nothing.

All this kind of stuff does is just make us on the same level of immaturity and obnoxiousness as the people who brag about Gali's inclusion into Mass Effect 2 and really we should be better then that. I don't like that I have to consider myself 'against' Garrus and Tali. I LIKE Garrus and Tali, more Garrus though, and I don't see why I can't praise them for coming with me while at the same time being forgiving of Ashley for her reaction on Horizon?
Why does it have to be muturally exclusive like this? Why can't I have it both ways?

Why can I not support Team Dextro without having to condemn Team VS and why do I as a member of Team VS have to be resentful of some of my favorite characters? Yes the fans can be obnoxious but two wrongs don't make a right.
I'm just so sick of the fighting, so bloody sick of it... I remember there was a time not so long ago when we were all friendly towards each other. I could stop by and give a friendly bump to the Garrus thread and they would give the Ashley thread one back, I remember just after the release of Lair of the Shadow Broker lots of Liara fans dropped by expressing hope that we of the VS group would get similar treatment.
I could drop a post supporting Jack and could support both her and Ashley without having to pick between them. What the hell happened to those days?
Nowadays if an outsider makes a post on our thread it's usually an attempt to incite or just outright trolling. And if someone supports Garrus and Tali they HAVE to drop a line insulting us and in turn we have to adapt an all or nothing hatred towards those two characters and their entire respective fanbases. We've even started alienating our friends with this kind of attitude.

Ashley fans and Kaidan fans have managed to stay tightly packed together all this time because ever since Virmire the characters have been stuck in the same situation, on the same boat as it were. Well come Mass Effect 3, we are all in that same boat, everyone is wondering who will live or die, everyone is concerned about how their LI's are going to be resolved and everyone is wondering about the ending of the game.
Who cares about the past and petty squabbles like this? We are now all part of the same bloody club with the same basic hopes and dreams for our version of Mass Effect 3, so I guess my big question is this:
Why the Hell can we not just get along?

I just think it's time to take the high road and not stoop to the haters and the troll's levels. Maybe if we do take the moral high ground and just accept the fact that no one should need to get into fights like this, others might join in. At the risk of sounding like a hippy, throwing back insults like this only widens the gap between fanbases, a gap that ought to be closed.
A united fanbase is a good fanbase, I think there can still exist debates on the boards of course but this whole 'my character is better then yours' macho BS has got to stop.
I'm sick of the widening of the gap.

Modifié par V-rex, 28 octobre 2011 - 10:46 .

[bleetman]

I was under the impression that indoctrination - even in the direct presence of a Reaper or, on one particular occasion, when directly implanted with Reaper tech - took quite some time to really sink it. Days at the least. I was also under the impression that Shepard showed up on Horizon just after the Collectors did. I wouldn't have thought there'd be time.

Besides which, if Ash/Kaidan were frozen somewhere around where they turn up, that's still nowhere near where the ship actually landed, or else everyone present would've been incinerated when it took off. So... at a stretch? They'd started off with the the colonists that were closest to the landing site first, systematically expanding outwards. They'd either loaded Ash/Kaidan into a pod with the other colonists nearby and where just about to start moving it, or were about to start, when Shepard's team showed up and those in the immediate area dropped what they were doing to try and fight them off.

Such was my interpretation, anyway. It's a bit of a stretch, but it's not exactly the only one in Mass Effect's plot. I just largely chalked it up to 'zomg my friend is in danger, drama!' followed by plot armour than anything more suspicious.

Modifié par bleetman, 28 octobre 2011 - 11:04 .

[Rogue Unit]

laecraft wrote...

CptData wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Some people literally cannot stand when their companions confront them, or have doubts, or question their leadership.

These characters are usually - but not always - my favorites. In every case though, I like that they have an independent thought process. Disagreement is not a problem for me as such, and while not every poster who demands utter devotion from their companions due to the Protagonist's Awesome Ego strikes me as silly... most do.

If you're the leader of a group you usually need someone that has a different opinion on a point and keeps you grounded. That applies in ME for Ashley (more) and Kaidan (less) and for Jacob in ME2. I guess ppl hate getting lectured if they're in charge - but a good leader needs different pov to pick the right decision.

That applies for Ashley (ME1) and Kaidan (ME1). You're not a leader or anything for VS in ME2. VS is not a part of your team. VS wants nothing to do with you post-Horizon. Therefore, that renders their opinion on my mission...invalid.

You see, they don't know anything about my mission. And they didn't bother to ask. Clearly they don't want to know. Why ask for input from someone who's so woefully uninformed and out of the loop of the constantly changing battle situation? They don't know anything, and hence they can't say anything useful.

Besides, I don't see VS offering any useful or valuable opinion to Shepard, except for accusations. Unless you consider their stance "never work with Cerberus" an opinion. Is it useful?

If we apply it to the future, then Shepard's not supposed to do anything, and is supposed to just sit and watch the Reapers wipe out humanity and then the galaxy. Let's see...no, I don't think it's a good course of action. Thank you for your input, VS.

But let's apply it to the past. Suppose Shepard had no contact with Cerberus. Shepard would still be dead, Horizon would've been abducted, and VS would be liquified. Let's see...

No, I don't think so. I'm only going to use the strategies whose formulators lived. Thank you, VS, any other useful advice from your independent thought process?

Questioning my leadership abilities, my choices, my perceptions, and my allegiances, after all of that led to saving half the colony and saving VS, and if not for Shepard and Cerberus, VS wouldn't even have a mouth to badmouth Shepard with....

On the second thought, I think I'll pass. If I want a reliable independent advice from a person I can trust, I'll ask Mordin.

This right here.

[nitefyre410]

Drone223 wrote...

CptData wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Some people literally cannot stand when their companions confront them, or have doubts, or question their leadership.

These characters are usually - but not always - my favorites. In every case though, I like that they have an independent thought process. Disagreement is not a problem for me as such, and while not every poster who demands utter devotion from their companions due to the Protagonist's Awesome Ego strikes me as silly... most do.

If you're the leader of a group you usually need someone that has a different opinion on a point and keeps you grounded. That applies in ME for Ashley (more) and Kaidan (less) and for Jacob in ME2. I guess ppl hate getting lectured if they're in charge - but a good leader needs different pov to pick the right decision.

^This

 

^This x2   

Modifié par nitefyre410, 28 octobre 2011 - 12:08 .

[CptData]

Seems as if ppl are pretty much on both sides of the wall.
Those who go with me and the "a good leader needs a second in command with a different opinion" and those who're totally against that idea.

The VS is NOT in Shepard's team in ME2, true. But Shepard is the former leader of the VS and it's most likely the VS still thinks that s/he has some influence on Shepard. Besides that, I'm sure the VS wants to ensure Shepard is playing for the same side (which obviously isn't the case).

Whatever - for me it's important the VS does NOT accept Shepard's current state. I actually dislike the idea that Shepard can convince everyone with just a few words. It doesn't work for the VS and that is (lets ignore the badly written scene) a good thing, making Shepard less "Mary Sueish". It also gives me the impression the VS knows Shepard far more better than anyone else ...

Modifié par CptData, 28 octobre 2011 - 12:32 .

[Aurora313]

^Agreed.

[alperez]

The problem with the whole the reason the VS wasn't taken is that they're indoctrinated so we'll need to watch our backs around them in me3 scenario, is that it makes no sense.

The only reason the VS would be indoctrinated would be so they could backstab Shepard later on, which is kind of hard to do considering they blow Shepard off and go off on their own path.

If they were indoctrinated wouldn't it have made sense that they'd follow Shepard on his mission and wait for the right time to backstab him rather than wait until some future time, afterall the reapers wanted Shepard right from the get go, so it would have made sense to have their indoctrinated spy well actually spy on him.

[Aurora313]

I'm praying that indoctrination isn't the case, but I would like a scenario where the VS has to go against Shepard, possibly cause they were ordered too or because of a moral disagreement, because the VS can do more than just object verbally now.

EG. Shepard (quite likely renegade) sees no choice other than to blow up a base filled with important material, either indoctrination research, medical research or something of great importance that can be used by either side to gain an advantage. Rather than voicing their opinion, the VS could possibly even raise their gun to their fellow SpecTRe and demand that they halt whatever it is they are doing.

[V-rex]

Aurora313 wrote...

I'm praying that indoctrination isn't the case, but I would like a scenario where the VS has to go against Shepard, possibly cause they were ordered too or because of a moral disagreement, because the VS can do more than just object verbally now.

EG. Shepard (quite likely renegade) sees no choice other than to blow up a base filled with important material, either indoctrination research, medical research or something of great importance that can be used by either side to gain an advantage. Rather than voicing their opinion, the VS could possibly even raise their gun to their fellow SpecTRe and demand that they halt whatever it is they are doing.

If that ever happens I really want that to be something that is optional and not forced on the player, give me the option to talk the VS down and get them back on my side.
Don't have it have to end in an inevitable conflict that results in death of one or more parties involved, I didn't wait six years for THAT.

EDIT: Also in regard to my other post, given that I've never seen anyone else use the world 'Gali' to describe both the Tali and Garrus fanbases at once then I am claiming it.
It's my word now biatches!

Modifié par V-rex, 28 octobre 2011 - 12:47 .

[Aurora313]

It would still be a cool Scenario though. If you had to stand off like that. Ash would be in favour of destruction I believe, and Kaidan would be in favour of saving the important asset.

[CptData]

Never liked the entire "indoctrination" plot device. It was already used on Saren and on the Collectors General, in "Arrival" etc - it grows old.
I don't want the VS to get indoctrinated. They should fight for Shepard - or against him if Shepard does wrong. They shouldn't fight against him because of indoctrination!

So I'm sure we're going to see some conflict between both Spectres, maybe even because Shepard worked for Cerberus once. But we won't see a conflict resulting of indoctrination. At least that's what I hope.

[alperez]

Couldn't agree more Cpt, besides there's much better candidates for indoctrination, yes Udina i'm looking at you.

[Aurora313]

Nah - Save Udina for the dartboard.... or the firing range... or if you don't have a Javelin torpedo to spare... lol

[nitefyre410]

If there is one thing that would make throw ME 3 out the window would be the indoctrinated teammate... for the love all that is holy no. It would be much better if there indoctrinated high ranking officials. You can't even play the whole Cerberus angle anymore because now they are seemingly taking the place of the Collectors. Something I have even more issues with but that's another thread.

[Yezdigerd]

Siansonea II wrote...

*first wave of Cerberus enemies attacks Shepard and the VS in ME3*

"You were saying, Shepard?"

For someone who would be reapergoo if Cerberus hadn't saved you and the human colonies when the alliance failed them, you sure enjoy embarrasing yourself.