280 réponses à ce sujet

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

JeffZero wrote...

 the inclusion of an extra studio clearly doesn't translate as extra resources to you and other dissenters whereas it does to me. So again, jump under that bus if that's what you feel you must do. I'm sorry you feel like your hearts have been ripped out by something I don't perceive as altering the resource balance. Come March I'll find out whether or not I was right, naturally. You'll just hang out under that bus, $60 or so richer, admittedly.

IIRC the "extra studio" is made up mainly of former members of the main studio, relocated to Montreal. It's still the same development team for the most part (albeit with a number of new faces), just more specialized. Besides, why even waste this extra studio on making a multiplayer mode? Why not focus the extra resources on the single player?

All that has been announced for this game so far has been gimmicky combat features, control schemes, co-op and multiplayer modes. They are bring back weapon customization and deepening the skill progression system, and kudos to them for that, but those are the only RPG elements that have been announced. Why not new classes? An improved dialogue system? An improved morality system? A more open game-world that offers more exploration? Instead of working on any of these things they are wasting time on a multiplayer mode that no one is going to play for any significant time period.

If they are actually improving and adding RPG elements they sure have been quiet about it, but given Bioware's recent trackrecord (I.E. DA 2), I doubt it. 

[AdmiralCheez]

OhHiDoggy wrote...

I'm not a one video game kind of guy.

Well if you're cheating on Mass Effect, Mass Effect can cheat on you.

[JeffZero]

BeefoTheBold wrote...
And my view is that, IN THEORY, this is possible.

In practice it is damned unlikely.

Everything we've seen, from the E3 presentation to all the announced new features, has been geared towards pleasing a particular customer segment.

It isn't like one week we've seen, "Hey COD players...check out why you want to play our game!" and the next it has been "Hey hardcore RPG fans, see what we're giving YOU GUYS!"

It's all been the former in terms of what is being announced and shown paired with, "And we're beefing up the RPG. PROMISE! TRUST US!"

Nope, doesn't seem like we have similar interpretations of the RPG beefing-up.

I look at the Powers Thread. I look at the raw data on the newfound number of points to spend and the three-linear, three-binary evolution paths. I am pleased. Then I look at the weapon customization system. Even in its preliminary stages, I am pleased.

Then I look at the level of dedication toward the conversational, "big choices" RPG mechanics from the first two games and use that as a template for what I will expect from ME3's campaign because I still don't have any reason to interpret otherwise -- hell, I have folks like Kaidan's Raphael Sbarge delivering newscasts talking about how floored he is with the emotional resonance of the third installment, so, quite the contrary. I am pleased.

I see the promised RPG developments. I am pleased.

[Leonia]

ME2 wasn't exactly much of an RPG and they've told us from the start that ME3 is going to be more of ME2. Why are you expecting something else?

[BeefoTheBold]

leonia42 wrote...

If you were expecting DA2 to play like DA:O after playing the demo then that doesn't speak very highly of your intelligence. Did you expect Bioware to produce something completely different from the demo after how late they were in the development cycle?

No, it doesn't.

And I'm honest enough to admit it.

I shouldn't have bought DA2. If it was any other developer other than Bioware I wouldn't. 

I bought it BECAUSE it was Bioware. "They've never let me down before...."

[thatguy212]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

OhHiDoggy wrote...

Son, now I dunno if you've had much to do with women but if ME3 was a woman, and for 20 years she had been faithful, and then outta the blue she became "multiplayer", YOU'D BE MAD TOO

You married a videogame?

Its more likely then you think

[OhHiDoggy]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

OhHiDoggy wrote...

I'm not a one video game kind of guy.

Well if you're cheating on Mass Effect, Mass Effect can cheat on you.

I'm not cheating on ME, I'm taking a break.
But now it wants to get back together bringing underage ****s to the party

I'm the better man for saying bugger that for a game of soldiers

[BeefoTheBold]

JeffZero wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...
And my view is that, IN THEORY, this is possible.

In practice it is damned unlikely.

Everything we've seen, from the E3 presentation to all the announced new features, has been geared towards pleasing a particular customer segment.

It isn't like one week we've seen, "Hey COD players...check out why you want to play our game!" and the next it has been "Hey hardcore RPG fans, see what we're giving YOU GUYS!"

It's all been the former in terms of what is being announced and shown paired with, "And we're beefing up the RPG. PROMISE! TRUST US!"

Nope, doesn't seem like we have similar interpretations of the RPG beefing-up.

I look at the Powers Thread. I look at the raw data on the newfound number of points to spend and the three-linear, three-binary evolution paths. I am pleased. Then I look at the weapon customization system. Even in its preliminary stages, I am pleased.

Then I look at the level of dedication toward the conversational, "big choices" RPG mechanics from the first two games and use that as a template for what I will expect from ME3's campaign because I still don't have any reason to interpret otherwise -- hell, I have folks like Kaidan's Raphael Sbarge delivering newscasts talking about how floored he is with the emotional resonance of the third installment, so, quite the contrary. I am pleased.

I see the promised RPG developments. I am pleased.

Who is Kaidan's Raphael Sbarge?

For my purposes, I see the respect, or lack thereof, given to the choices in DAO within DAA and DA2 and I view that as a VERY alarming canary in a coal mine for ME3.

It isn't like your choices in ME1 played a big impact in ME2.

Why should I expect them to in ME3 based on how little your choices have mattered in ANY Bioware release lately?

[JeffZero]

BeefoTheBold wrote...
Did you play DA2's demo?

I did. And in retrospect I'm kicking myself for buying the game. The demo made DAMN CLEAR that it was a different game than DAO and a far worse one. I bought it anyway because it was Bioware.

The saying, "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" applies.

So that's...

ME2's demo, developed at BioWare Edmonton, doesn't appropriately encompass ME2's full story.

DA2's demo, developed at BioWare Austin, successfully encompasses DA2's full story.

So that's 1-1, with a lean in "give ME3 the same benefit of the doubt's" favor, given it's Edmonton we're talking about here.

People who fear for ME3 because of DA2, such as yourself, I see, are going to have to either find out for themselves come March or... you know, don't. I don't feel like there's enough similarity between the two projects to dread anything; you do. Difference of interpretation. Big-time.

[BeefoTheBold]

leonia42 wrote...

ME2 wasn't exactly much of an RPG and they've told us from the start that ME3 is going to be more of ME2. Why are you expecting something else?

I'm seen the complete opposite message from Bioware.

Everything I've seen has been, "We've listened. We went too far with ME2. We're going to beef up the RPG elements of ME3."

[Leonia]

So ME3 is also by Bioware. If your criteria is "Bioware label" and not "Traditional old-school RPG" then you should still buy it. RPGs have been changing for years and if you don't like those changes, that's fine but you can't expect Bioware to keep producing the same identical product every time. The industry would gobble them up if they kept that up. But to deny that ME3 has RPG elements is to ignore a LOT of information we've been given. Maybe it doesn't suit your personal definition of RPG but I bet very few games do any more. Either you accept the changes and play it (there will still be great story and all the things you normally expect from Bioware) or you give Bioware the finger and ride away on your RPG Elitist horse.

[Leonia]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

ME2 wasn't exactly much of an RPG and they've told us from the start that ME3 is going to be more of ME2. Why are you expecting something else?

I'm seen the complete opposite message from Bioware.

Everything I've seen has been, "We've listened. We went too far with ME2. We're going to beef up the RPG elements of ME3."

Then what's your problem?

[JeffZero]

BeefoTheBold wrote...
Who is Kaidan's Raphael Sbarge?

Kaidan Alenko's voice actor, Raphael Sbarge. Thus, Kaidan's Raphael Sbarge. In the similar vein as "Jack's Leonardo DiCaprio." Except, you know, superior.

For my purposes, I see the respect, or lack thereof, given to the choices in DAO within DAA and DA2 and I view that as a VERY alarming canary in a coal mine for ME3.

It isn't like your choices in ME1 played a big impact in ME2.

Why should I expect them to in ME3 based on how little your choices have mattered in ANY Bioware release lately?

I'm satisfied with the narrative. People who aren't are going to have much bigger, much louder canaries in copy/pasted coal mines going forward. I'm satisfied with the level of impact ME1's choices had on ME2; I expect bigger and better from the last act but I don't begrudge the middle game in a very challenging concept to successfully pull off to do more than it did.

[BeefoTheBold]

JeffZero wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...
Did you play DA2's demo?

I did. And in retrospect I'm kicking myself for buying the game. The demo made DAMN CLEAR that it was a different game than DAO and a far worse one. I bought it anyway because it was Bioware.

The saying, "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" applies.

So that's...

ME2's demo, developed at BioWare Edmonton, doesn't appropriately encompass ME2's full story.

DA2's demo, developed at BioWare Austin, successfully encompasses DA2's full story.

So that's 1-1, with a lean in "give ME3 the same benefit of the doubt's" favor, given it's Edmonton we're talking about here.

People who fear for ME3 because of DA2, such as yourself, I see, are going to have to either find out for themselves come March or... you know, don't. I don't feel like there's enough similarity between the two projects to dread anything; you do. Difference of interpretation. Big-time.

I think you're calling DA2 an aberration rather than a new norm.

To me, I'm not looking at DA2 in isolation.

I'm looking at DA2, Awakenings, Witch Hunt, and The Arrival. Basically I'm looking for any indication that I'm wrong.

Even between ME1 and ME2, there was zero, nada, zilch, NO impact from your choices in the first game to the second. On the Dragon Age side of the fence, it's utterly obvious that they took DAO and threw it out the window. On the Mass Effect side, we have alarming indications based on a lack of choice carryover from the first game to the second and a series of announcements ALL focused on NOT RPG.

So, to me, it isn't that I'm TRYING to assume gloom and doom, it's that I don't see anything that says, "Don't worry! We've seen the problems and issues you're worried about and here's how we're addressing them."

[AdmiralCheez]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

No, it doesn't.

And I'm honest enough to admit it.

I shouldn't have bought DA2. If it was any other developer other than Bioware I wouldn't. 

I bought it BECAUSE it was Bioware. "They've never let me down before...."

Yeah, I made that goof with Starcraft 2.  Good game, but it wasn't what I wanted, and several decisions that went into its creation were... just dumb.  Dumb enough that I should have waited for the price to go down.

But I think--hope--BW learned from their mistakes.  They're taking their time with ME3, looking hard at what ME2 did wrong, etc.  It should be good enough for full price, at least.

And really, DA2 would have been fine if it wasn't rushed.  It's still a more than decent game, according to several people I know personally.  It's only a letdown because it could have been so much better had they not booted it out the door too early.

[BeefoTheBold]

leonia42 wrote...

So ME3 is also by Bioware. If your criteria is "Bioware label" and not "Traditional old-school RPG" then you should still buy it. RPGs have been changing for years and if you don't like those changes, that's fine but you can't expect Bioware to keep producing the same identical product every time. The industry would gobble them up if they kept that up. But to deny that ME3 has RPG elements is to ignore a LOT of information we've been given. Maybe it doesn't suit your personal definition of RPG but I bet very few games do any more. Either you accept the changes and play it (there will still be great story and all the things you normally expect from Bioware) or you give Bioware the finger and ride away on your RPG Elitist horse.

Oh?

CD Projekt doesn't seem to be being swallowed up.

Rather they seem to have said, "You don't want this segment of the industry Bioware? We'll definitely take it!"

They seem to be doing just fine.

Modifié par BeefoTheBold, 28 octobre 2011 - 02:27 .

[Ricinator]

Well said Beef

[BeefoTheBold]

leonia42 wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

ME2 wasn't exactly much of an RPG and they've told us from the start that ME3 is going to be more of ME2. Why are you expecting something else?

I'm seen the complete opposite message from Bioware.

Everything I've seen has been, "We've listened. We went too far with ME2. We're going to beef up the RPG elements of ME3."

Then what's your problem?

That what they say and what they're showing/announcing are NOT a match.

Basically, I think they're lying out their ass.

[JeffZero]

BeefoTheBold wrote...
I think you're calling DA2 an aberration rather than a new norm.

To me, I'm not looking at DA2 in isolation.

I'm looking at DA2, Awakenings, Witch Hunt, and The Arrival. Basically I'm looking for any indication that I'm wrong.

Even between ME1 and ME2, there was zero, nada, zilch, NO impact from your choices in the first game to the second. On the Dragon Age side of the fence, it's utterly obvious that they took DAO and threw it out the window. On the Mass Effect side, we have alarming indications based on a lack of choice carryover from the first game to the second and a series of announcements ALL focused on NOT RPG.

So, to me, it isn't that I'm TRYING to assume gloom and doom, it's that I don't see anything that says, "Don't worry! We've seen the problems and issues you're worried about and here's how we're addressing them."

I can't help but get the feeling that you and I play these games for a different reason. You want to see a universe radically changed via player choice; I'm quite content seeing a universe fully-realized with a degree of impact by player choice.

Speaking of which, nada? Zilch? Really? I don't feel like it's semantics in the least to point out the change in Council status, the selected Councilor, the fate of two squadmates, the we're-clearly-waiting-for-ME3 fate of an entire species, the whereabouts of Conrad Verner and many other key minor characters... this is becoming more and more self-evident to me that we have conflicting views on what is "enough."

[Quole]

Dragonage 2 is an abomination. See what I did there?

[Leonia]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

So ME3 is also by Bioware. If your criteria is "Bioware label" and not "Traditional old-school RPG" then you should still buy it. RPGs have been changing for years and if you don't like those changes, that's fine but you can't expect Bioware to keep producing the same identical product every time. The industry would gobble them up if they kept that up. But to deny that ME3 has RPG elements is to ignore a LOT of information we've been given. Maybe it doesn't suit your personal definition of RPG but I bet very few games do any more. Either you accept the changes and play it (there will still be great story and all the things you normally expect from Bioware) or you give Bioware the finger and ride away on your RPG Elitist horse.

Oh?

CD Projekt doesn't seem to be being swallowed up.

Rather they seem to have said, "You don't want this segment of the industry Bioware? We'll definitely take it!"

They seem to be doing just fine.

I like my stories and characters to be a bit deeper than those presented in the Witcher but hey we all have different tastes. They've not made as many games as Bioware either so the metric is hardly comparable. But if you want to distort facts to support your paranoia, by all means go ahead.

[JeffZero]

I have to head out for a while. I'll try to remember to check up on what replies of yours I've missed when I return, Beefo.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

leonia42 wrote...

So ME3 is also by Bioware. If your criteria is "Bioware label" and not "Traditional old-school RPG" then you should still buy it. RPGs have been changing for years and if you don't like those changes, that's fine but you can't expect Bioware to keep producing the same identical product every time. The industry would gobble them up if they kept that up. But to deny that ME3 has RPG elements is to ignore a LOT of information we've been given. Maybe it doesn't suit your personal definition of RPG but I bet very few games do any more. Either you accept the changes and play it (there will still be great story and all the things you normally expect from Bioware) or you give Bioware the finger and ride away on your RPG Elitist horse.

No one is asking for the same identical product. But no long time Bioware fan has asked for any of this. If you told me 5 years ago that Bioware will be coming out with a third person shooter with co-op and multiplayer you'd have me in stiches. 

Bioware has a reputation for being an innovator. They have made some of the greatest RPG's of all time. They were not one to follow the tide of the industry - no, they were the tide. But now sadly it seems that is no longer true. 

[BeefoTheBold]

JeffZero wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...
I think you're calling DA2 an aberration rather than a new norm.

To me, I'm not looking at DA2 in isolation.

I'm looking at DA2, Awakenings, Witch Hunt, and The Arrival. Basically I'm looking for any indication that I'm wrong.

Even between ME1 and ME2, there was zero, nada, zilch, NO impact from your choices in the first game to the second. On the Dragon Age side of the fence, it's utterly obvious that they took DAO and threw it out the window. On the Mass Effect side, we have alarming indications based on a lack of choice carryover from the first game to the second and a series of announcements ALL focused on NOT RPG.

So, to me, it isn't that I'm TRYING to assume gloom and doom, it's that I don't see anything that says, "Don't worry! We've seen the problems and issues you're worried about and here's how we're addressing them."

I can't help but get the feeling that you and I play these games for a different reason. You want to see a universe radically changed via player choice; I'm quite content seeing a universe fully-realized with a degree of impact by player choice.

Speaking of which, nada? Zilch? Really? I don't feel like it's semantics in the least to point out the change in Council status, the selected Councilor, the fate of two squadmates, the we're-clearly-waiting-for-ME3 fate of an entire species, the whereabouts of Conrad Verner and many other key minor characters... this is becoming more and more self-evident to me that we have conflicting views on what is "enough."

Perhaps so.

For example, for me, if you saved the council it should MATTER.

Basically, you should actually be rewarded OR PUNISHED in ME2 for the MONUMENTAL CHOICE to save the council.

But the storyline in ME2 plays out EXACTLY THE SAME. In a logical developmental world, saving the council - in other words the head honchos of the ALIENS - should buy you some trust with your working for Cerberus in the 2nd game.

Alternatively, letting them die and putting that jerk Udina in charge should get you something or punish you.

Essentially though, it doesn't matter what you do. Save them or kill them, nothing's really different.

I'm not saying that ALL choices should matter equally. But deciding to save of let the council die? Um....pretty damn big choice.

[Savber100]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

So ME3 is also by Bioware. If your criteria is "Bioware label" and not "Traditional old-school RPG" then you should still buy it. RPGs have been changing for years and if you don't like those changes, that's fine but you can't expect Bioware to keep producing the same identical product every time. The industry would gobble them up if they kept that up. But to deny that ME3 has RPG elements is to ignore a LOT of information we've been given. Maybe it doesn't suit your personal definition of RPG but I bet very few games do any more. Either you accept the changes and play it (there will still be great story and all the things you normally expect from Bioware) or you give Bioware the finger and ride away on your RPG Elitist horse.

Oh?

CD Projekt doesn't seem to be being swallowed up.

Rather they seem to have said, "You don't want this segment of the industry Bioware? We'll definitely take it!"

They seem to be doing just fine.

Wait 12-13 games later and a decade or so and we'll see CDPR go the way of EA etc.

It's the sad truth.