22 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

1.  With little ventilation, wouldn't the whole city smell like waste after a while (urine and feces)?  I recently went to China and found that many of the restrooms smell horrible, and that's even with ventilation.  Imagine a city where thousands of people peeing and pooping, and opening the door to let some air in would be considered treason.    Then again, some of it could be dumped into the lava, but many of the old Dwarven cities don't have that lava.  That leads me to ...

2.  With little or no ventilation, the lava would continually heat the air, making Orzammar a stone oven.  How do they survive?  Would the air even be breathable?  They'd be breathing in high levels of not only carbon dioxide, but also sulfur dioxide (both toxic and corrosive).

3.  What about the Dwarf guard that stands outside on the doorstep?  Isn't he a surfacer?

4.  Dwarves are still hominoids, and they need more than just nug meat.  How would they get their fruits and vegetables?  Without refrigeration and rapid transportation, even the small amount of fruits and vegetables that they would get from the surface would rot before they reached Orzammar.

There were cave-dwelling peoples in pre-historic times, but they never spent 100% of their lives in the caves.

Modifié par Sir Pounce-a-lot, 28 octobre 2011 - 04:47 .

[BlackEmperor]

For 1 and 2, yeah, I see your point. I love fantasy settings with underground cities. They've always fascinated me. Getting proper ventilation, water, food, and sewage disposal is all the more important in an underground city, where space and resources are more limited, than in topside cities. All the points you raised are valid. Most of the time, the answer is some kind of solve-all magical solution. Unlikely here since dwarves can't work magic, but they can work enchantments. They must have some kind of magical-based solution, I would think--even if they had to use all that wealth brought in from surface trade to hire outside expertise. That's my best guess.

For 3, I assume the guard (and the army in general) gets some kind of special exemption.

And 4, well, not all plant matter requires sunlight to grow. Fungus is the primary example, but there might be other magical plant or animal life that can be harvested. Once again, there's surface trade too. When they say it's Orzammar's life-line, I don't think it's a figure of speech. Also, Orzammar isn't that far deep down. I don't think the majority of transported produce would spoil. As for the cities deeper down, I dunno what to tell you.

That's assuming that dwarven bodily needs are identical to that of humans. For all I know, meat and ale are the only things they need.

[Asch Lavigne]

In DA2 Varric has a banter with Bethany about Orzammar. He says it's "cramped tunnels filled with nug **** and body odor."

Modifié par Asch Lavigne, 29 octobre 2011 - 02:49 .

[megski]

Asch Lavigne wrote...

In DA2 Varric has a banter with Bethany about Orzammar. He says it's "cramped tunnels filled with nug **** and body odor."

If I remember correctly, Varric was born on the surface and never actually lived in Orzammar.  

[megski]

I think it's important to remember that Orzammar is really a fantasy setting, however in The Calling, the ventilation is mentioned quite often while the characters are traveling the deep roads. All races in dragon age have special resistances, perhaps dwarves are better adapted for the heat from the lava. Most dwarves have a lot of pride in their city and culture, it's an honor to spend your life in Orzammar surrounded by the stone. Being 'sun touched' as the dwarves call it, is an old superstition that seems to brought up selectively. It means that dwarves have lost their connection to the stone and their ancestors don't favor them anymore. This is a big deal in dwarven society but as I said it before, its used selectively and mostly applies to dwarves who have either been exiled or voluntarily left Orzammar. Once a dwarf moves to the surface permanently, they lose their caste and that's when they become sun touched. Most of the time dwarves are exiled because they did something wrong, i.e. the dwarf noble being exiled for kin slaying or Varric's father for fixing provings. It reads somewhere in the codexes that all of the statues of paragons in the hall of heroes is to impress visitors from the surface, and meant to be a reminder for dwarves going to the surface that they're turning their backs on their ancestors. So! With this being said, my point is that there is a difference between simply making a 'trip' to the surface and living there.

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

BlackEmperor wrote...

For 1 and 2, yeah, I see your point. I love fantasy settings with underground cities. They've always fascinated me. Getting proper ventilation, water, food, and sewage disposal is all the more important in an underground city, where space and resources are more limited, than in topside cities. All the points you raised are valid. Most of the time, the answer is some kind of solve-all magical solution. Unlikely here since dwarves can't work magic, but they can work enchantments. They must have some kind of magical-based solution, I would think--even if they had to use all that wealth brought in from surface trade to hire outside expertise. That's my best guess.

For 3, I assume the guard (and the army in general) gets some kind of special exemption.

And 4, well, not all plant matter requires sunlight to grow. Fungus is the primary example, but there might be other magical plant or animal life that can be harvested. Once again, there's surface trade too. When they say it's Orzammar's life-line, I don't think it's a figure of speech. Also, Orzammar isn't that far deep down. I don't think the majority of transported produce would spoil. As for the cities deeper down, I dunno what to tell you.

That's assuming that dwarven bodily needs are identical to that of humans. For all I know, meat and ale are the only things they need.

A magical solution ... En-chant-ment? En-chant-ment!
I would have expected to see their walls, floors, and ceilings covered in runes.

Fungi could provide them with a lot of their nutrients. I'm surprised that they didn't just have a mass exodus and all leave Orzammar. That lava would be spewing poisonous gases into the air constantly, and it would get extremely hot. Ironically, Dust Town would be the most livable part of Orzammar. It's away from the lava, and all those cracks in the walls would provide ventilation. It would attract more edible animals too, and any fungi could grow more easily there.

[gandanlin]

Nugs. lichen-ale, and bronto burgers provide all the nutrients essential to the dwarf diet, according to an unpublished treatise by Brother Geniviti.

The lungs of the dwarf have adapted to the atmosphere over many generations, and they developed the ability to absorb certain essential minerals by respiration. Though their physiology has not been studied extensively, it is believed that the digestive systems of dwarf and human are quite dissimilar, this based on reports from those who have seen the internal organs of dwarves killed in battle. In particular, the liver of a typical warrior dwarf appears to be of extraordinary size and capacity. The gallbladder, on the other hand, is absent in dwarves, and bile does not appear to be necessary in the dwarven digestive tract.

Modifié par gandanlin, 29 octobre 2011 - 09:34 .

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

gandanlin wrote...

Nugs. lichen-ale, and bronto burgers provide all the nutrients essential to the dwarf diet, according to an unpublished treatise by Brother Geniviti.

The lungs of the dwarf have adapted to the atmosphere over many generations, and they developed the ability to absorb certain essential minerals by respiration. Though their physiology has not been studied extensively, it is believed that the digestive systems of dwarf and human are quite dissimilar, this based on reports from those who have seen the internal organs of dwarves killed in battle. In particular, the liver of a typical warrior dwarf appears to be of extraordinary size and capacity. The gallbladder, on the other hand, is absent in dwarves, and bile does not appear to be necessary in the dwarven digestive tract.

Wow. It sounds like you have a PhD in Dwarf Studies. Thanx. They'd better have a high tolerance for heat too.

[Zyano]

True there may be a smell among the place... but given these are a people that live within the semi confines of a cavern they may be use to the stench being a normal part of their lives. Think of it like living near a plant or an airport... after a time you will become accustom to these sounds/smells... if not you leave.

http://volcanoes.usg...s/gas/index.php

There is a great lack of volcanic eruptions within the caverns thus there is the potential that a great deal of the gases formed during eruption may not be present in lethal amounts. Were such lethal gases present at lava flows, I am most certain Lava Walking would not be permitted at all

I remember seeing a documentary on NatGeo about people traveling over volcanic planes... in fact I remember seeing them string a steak on a bit or wire and throw it into an open Lava flow that was barely an arms length away to cook it.

Orzammar is a very, very open area. True that Lava is not far from some area, there is still a great deal of openness that can ensure that a non-dwarf could be comfortable in these spaces... as comfortable as one can get being in a hot desert or a steam-house.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2000/fs152-00/

Issues from lava seem to come more from very hot steam from water suddenly boiling and sea water reactions with their salt content making Chloride... a partial component to acid. Thus forming a steam with a acidic nature.

Being that there are different caste, there may be an equal number of sub caste's. Smithing caste may be broken down potential to dedicated endeavors. Dagna does make mention of Lyrium Smithing, which in essence could be a specialized smithing caste. These surface warrior caste may be a specialized group of individuals.

Another thing may be that to a small degree so long as they remain on the steps they are still within the stones holdings.

As far as storage go... I can say from spelunking trips I have been on its really cold in a cave, especially the waters that flow in some recesses of a cave. For all intents they could have a section of caves carved out for cold storage of the more picky foods that may be off from the more temperamental areas. I know with some camping trips storing of food in a water tight container weight down under river/stream water can help keep foods cool as well.

Average Temps for some of the caves I have been in have been below 70 if not more going down, and some of that temp can change based on cavern size being that your body is going to heat that up.

Rotting today may not be like the rotting of things then... cooling something down can really make a difference in how long it takes to rot. Take for example a banana... peel, all black but yet the meat is still firm as ever. Anyways... just time and things are different... we are using chemicals and gene moding to improve the quality of the food and it does not mean that the foods of the past were not hearty in their own ways before we decided to breed out their natural growth.

But anyways just my thoughts on things...

Kudos for the Dwarf Studies... very nice.

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

Very interesting Zyano. I actually created a Dwarven character in honor of the real-life Dwarves of pre-historic Indonesia. They are called "****** floresiensis" by scientists. They lived in caves too (at least much of the time), and they had a wide variety of stone tools. As for Dragon Age, that lava could be even safer than most lavas in our universe. The laws of physics are probably different (especially considering all the magic). In our universe, magical capabilities are either extremely minor and extremely rare, or non-existent, but in another universe things could be very different.

PS - I'm a licensed biology teacher, and I've taken many science classes. I wonder how much of an oddball I am for believing in the possibility of limited magical abilities ... Mediumship and psi definitely. Not Harry Potter stuff though, or at least not among humans on Earth. Of course, there are probably laws that govern that stuff too, so the "magic" label might not mean anything, unless it just refers to paranormal abilities found in living beings (or physical things).

Modifié par Sir Pounce-a-lot, 30 octobre 2011 - 09:58 .

[gandanlin]

Interesting thoughts about the caves, Zyano. Could be that the architecture of Orzammer is such that the heat from the lava flows is modulated by the design of the interior space. And yes, caves can be drafty and cold. So cold storage should not be a problem.

Acidic steam, though. That sounds downright nasty. I once caught a whiff of heated hydrochloric acid in one of my science classes (Biochemistry, I think). Nearly dissolved my nasal passages. Couldn't smell anything for about three days. Gotta be very careful around that stuff. Still, there are some remarkable adaptations to harsh living conditions, such as the so-called extremophilic bacteria:

http://www.novelguid...i_01_00216.html

I suppose it helps to have a sense of wonder about what is possible.

Modifié par gandanlin, 30 octobre 2011 - 07:24 .

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

gandanlin wrote...

Interesting thoughts about the caves, Zyano. Could be that the architecture of Orzammer is such that the heat from the lava flows is modulated by the design of the interior space. And yes, caves can be drafty and cold. So cold storage should not be a problem.

Acidic steam, though. That sounds downright nasty. I once caught a whiff of heated hydrochloric acid in one of my science classes (Biochemistry, I think). Nearly dissolved my nasal passages. Couldn't smell anything for about three days. Gotta be very careful around that stuff. Still, there are some remarkable adaptations to harsh living conditions, such as the so-called extremophilic bacteria:

http://www.novelguid...i_01_00216.html

I suppose it helps to have a sense of wonder about what is possible.

I can't help but think that Dwarven anatomy (external and internal) would need to be very different from humans if they really were suited for constant exposure to lava-related gasses and high temperatures.  Acidophiles and thermophiles are just bacteria, and I'm not sure what evolutionary pathway hominoids could take to endure in such conditions.

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

 

Modifié par Sir Pounce-a-lot, 31 octobre 2011 - 07:55 .

[gandanlin]

Hard to know about dwarves. 

[megski]

Sir Pounce-a-lot wrote...

gandanlin wrote...

Interesting thoughts about the caves, Zyano. Could be that the architecture of Orzammer is such that the heat from the lava flows is modulated by the design of the interior space. And yes, caves can be drafty and cold. So cold storage should not be a problem.

Acidic steam, though. That sounds downright nasty. I once caught a whiff of heated hydrochloric acid in one of my science classes (Biochemistry, I think). Nearly dissolved my nasal passages. Couldn't smell anything for about three days. Gotta be very careful around that stuff. Still, there are some remarkable adaptations to harsh living conditions, such as the so-called extremophilic bacteria:

http://www.novelguid...i_01_00216.html

I suppose it helps to have a sense of wonder about what is possible.

I can't help but think that Dwarven anatomy (external and internal) would need to be very different from humans if they really were suited for constant exposure to lava-related gasses and high temperatures.  Acidophiles and thermophiles are just bacteria, and I'm not sure what evolutionary pathway hominoids could take to endure in such conditions.

I think I've heard that people living in really high elevations have larger hearts and lungs.  So I could see some anatomical adaptations.  

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

Their body chemistry would need to be very different, megski. It would take many, many generations to adapt to the conditions present in Orzammar, and the underground in general. If they suddenly decided to live down there, they would die. If Dwarves are hominoids, then their distant ancestors must have lived on the surface. These would have been the same ancestors that Humans, Elves, and Qunari had. Some sort of geographic isolation might have occurred, and they could have gradually shifted over to living in cave environments. In Dragon Age lore, it is mentioned that Dwarves cannot reproduce with Humans or Elves, meaning that they are technically a separate species.

[Megaton_Hope]

I wondered about gases myself. I think that they just sort of hand-waved the magma; forging apparently causes a number of cases of "black lung," but breathing sulfur dioxide and carbon monoxide all day is no problem, huh?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say "a wizard did it."

[vixvicco]

For point one, I can use a real life example. I live in Australia, and there's a place called Coober Pedy and some live underground, probably in a similar fashion. However, its nothing like Orzammar and I think there's only houses and not shops or anything,underground, but just to let you know, it does happen. Its more of a tourist thing though, I think.

For point four, maybe they just adjusted to that diet?
I think those are some interesting points though, never thought about it before.

[gandanlin]

It is sort of interesting to compare Orzammer and its thaigs to the underground cities of Cappadocia:

http://www.cappadoci...roundcities.htm

[Lemina Ausa]

The one thing I never understood is how they (the assembly) knew the crown made by branka/caradin was "of paragon make". True, they put their house crest on the crown, but any smith from the house could have done that. Considering one of the paragons was a fella that found out that nugs were edible, I'm pretty sure they weren't all smiths and other paragons, if they made crowns, would have some rather imperfect crowns. How DID that dwarf tell it was "of paragon make" anyway?

Modifié par Lemina Ausa, 16 janvier 2012 - 02:43 .

[Aule42]

Sir Pounce-a-lot wrote...

1.  With little ventilation, wouldn't the whole city smell like waste after a while (urine and feces)?  I recently went to China and found that many of the restrooms smell horrible, and that's even with ventilation.  Imagine a city where thousands of people peeing and pooping, and opening the door to let some air in would be considered treason.    Then again, some of it could be dumped into the lava, but many of the old Dwarven cities don't have that lava.  That leads me to ...

2.  With little or no ventilation, the lava would continually heat the air, making Orzammar a stone oven.  How do they survive?  Would the air even be breathable?  They'd be breathing in high levels of not only carbon dioxide, but also sulfur dioxide (both toxic and corrosive).

3.  What about the Dwarf guard that stands outside on the doorstep?  Isn't he a surfacer?

4.  Dwarves are still hominoids, and they need more than just nug meat.  How would they get their fruits and vegetables?  Without refrigeration and rapid transportation, even the small amount of fruits and vegetables that they would get from the surface would rot before they reached Orzammar.

There were cave-dwelling peoples in pre-historic times, but they never spent 100% of their lives in the caves.

1) They probabaly do drop it in the lava. Maybe the higher-ups have piping to have their bowl movement move through to go to lava. We're talking about DWARVES here. If they can make a tunnel, then they can sure as heck make some plumbing. Besides that, I think there is a source of ventillation.

2) What makes you think Dwarves are not immune to that? Its humans and elves that should worry about it.

3) I asked my Dad that question. He said to stop being stupid and play the game.

4) Underground gardens and trading, I pressume, although the earlier is just a bit far-fetched. Who really says that dwarves need veggies to survive anyway? They didnt develop with them, living underground, so they must have adapted over time to live without them. The main point you have to remeber when asking these questions is that the species your talking about isnt human, so you shouldnt treat them as such.

[perlshell]

4) Underground gardens (for surface plants) - hydroponic systems with magical light sources that mimic sunlight?