1663 réponses à ce sujet

[Sgt Stryker]

Oh how I wish I used that Twitter thingamabob...

[Ziggy]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Em23 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Let's just say that Ash's outfit no more conveys the image of a high-ranking elite agent, than Samara's outfit conveys the image of a knight-errant/samurai/warrior monk in space.

Samara's outfit carries incredible signifigance to her people. She's is both feared and respected because her outfit is a traditional justicars outfit. Asari fashion is NOT human fashion. Samara showing her clevage is not sexual to asari it's an open invitation to enemies to take their best shot as in "you better hope the first shot kills me."

You do realise that the asari and their traditional justicar uniform and all their traditions were made up... ? invalid argument.

So is Ashley but that doesn't stop you form complaining about her outfit. That logic is a two way street also. Legions quote applies to our culture and asari culture.

Um, no, it's really not. your entire argument is based completely in made up stuff. that is unique to you i'm afraid.

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

You heard it here first folks. All arguments from an in-universe perspective about in-universe subjects based on any fiction ever are invalid because they're fiction.

Mass Effect, Star Wars, The Godfather, Shakespeare, Mario, Lord of the Rings, Spirited Away, Kill Bill, Star Trek, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, pretty much any Marvel or DC comic ever, are all unworthy of debate on their merits because they're not real.

[Ryzaki]

As for Samara's outfit I look at Vasir, Morinth and Liara. If being half naked was supposed to be a "I'm so strong you can't touch me." sign it apparently only applies to Justicars. As for Benezia I got the feeling she was more of a diplomat than a fighter and she wasn't expecting combat when Shep ran up to her [plus she had a squad of commandos with her fully armored commandos (granted it was light armor)]. (not that she couldn't kick ass when it came down to it).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 décembre 2011 - 06:05 .

[Ziggy]

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

You heard it here first folks. All arguments from an in-universe perspective about in-universe subjects based on any fiction ever are invalid because they're fiction.

How does it make any sense to argue that Samara's outfit is proffessional/respectable etc because in asari culture bearing cleavage it's not sexual but a sign of toughness when in this world there are only humans and for us it is sexual and stupid when bullets are flying?

So it'd be ok for bioware to add a humanoid species where everyone is completely naked if in their culture clothes are evil?

What am I missing.

Modifié par Em23, 10 décembre 2011 - 06:12 .

[Ziggy]

Samara's outfit was created to be sexy for the HUMANS playing the game, not as a sign of toughness to intimidate other asari since they are just lines of code and therefore cannot be intimidated.

I can't believe I had to explain this.

[jeweledleah]

Ryzaki wrote...

As for Samara's outfit I look at Vasir, Morinth and Liara. If being half naked was supposed to be a "I'm so strong you can't touch me." sign it apparently only applies to Justicars. As for Benezia I got the feeling she was more of a diplomat than a fighter and she wasn't expecting combat when Shep ran up to her [plus she had a squad of commandos with her fully armored commandos (granted it was light armor)]. (not that she couldn't kick ass when it came down to it).

not only that - Benezia was looking for a very specific reaction when she showed up at port Hanshan and that was to distract, not to intimidate.  so at least her cleavage made more sence in that regard (and not like she did much fighting herself either, she just kept calling reinforcements and throwing stasis fields when you'd pop out of cover to shoot as said reinforcements)

[ADLegend21]

Em23 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Em23 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Let's just say that Ash's outfit no more conveys the image of a high-ranking elite agent, than Samara's outfit conveys the image of a knight-errant/samurai/warrior monk in space.

Samara's outfit carries incredible signifigance to her people. She's is both feared and respected because her outfit is a traditional justicars outfit. Asari fashion is NOT human fashion. Samara showing her clevage is not sexual to asari it's an open invitation to enemies to take their best shot as in "you better hope the first shot kills me."

You do realise that the asari and their traditional justicar uniform and all their traditions were made up... ? invalid argument.

So is Ashley but that doesn't stop you form complaining about her outfit. That logic is a two way street also. Legions quote applies to our culture and asari culture.

Um, no, it's really not. your entire argument is based completely in made up stuff. that is unique to you i'm afraid.

do you ahve any idea how idiotic that sounds?How can I not debate Mass effect using Mass Effect? what am I supposed to debate it with KOTOR?

[Ziggy]

ADLegend21 wrote...

do you ahve any idea how idiotic that sounds?How can I not debate Mass effect using Mass Effect? what am I supposed to debate it with KOTOR?

Look at my other posts above, hopefully they explain it well enough.
Admittedly, that first post was not a clear way of putting it.

Modifié par Em23, 10 décembre 2011 - 06:45 .

[ADLegend21]

Em23 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

do you ahve any idea how idiotic that sounds?How can I not debate Mass effect using Mass Effect? what am I supposed to debate it with KOTOR?

Look at my other posts above, hopefully they explain it well enough

obviously not. we're talking about a fictitious characer yet you say my arguement sucks because I'm using fictitious facts from her universe. That makes 0 sense. I her being fiction make sthsi invalid why are we even talking about it then?

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...

not only that - Benezia was looking for a very specific reaction when she showed up at port Hanshan and that was to distract, not to intimidate.  so at least her cleavage made more sence in that regard (and not like she did much fighting herself either, she just kept calling reinforcements and throwing stasis fields when you'd pop out of cover to shoot as said reinforcements)

True. And yeah she wasn't really all that dangerous when Shep finally got rid of her mooks.

[Ziggy]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Em23 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

do you ahve any idea how idiotic that sounds?How can I not debate Mass effect using Mass Effect? what am I supposed to debate it with KOTOR?

Look at my other posts above, hopefully they explain it well enough

obviously not. we're talking about a fictitious characer yet you say my arguement sucks because I'm using fictitious facts from her universe. That makes 0 sense. I her being fiction make sthsi invalid why are we even talking about it then?

Have a look at my other 2 consecutive posts above (still on this page) and respond to them, if you can point out what i'm missing in my logic there I'd be very surprised but interested.


edit: eg. if your argument was valid, you could, by the same logic, invent all sorts of offensive species and get away with it by saying that in their culture said behaviour is actually a mark of great respect.

Modifié par Em23, 10 décembre 2011 - 06:54 .

[ADLegend21]

Em23 wrote...

Samara's outfit was created to be sexy for the HUMANS playing the game, not as a sign of toughness to intimidate other asari since they are just lines of code and therefore cannot be intimidated.

I can't believe I had to explain this.

Right there. dismissing her and her species as a line of code takes all the emotion ot of the game. why bother caring about her or her outfit she's just lines of code right? Shepard is too. There's no such thing as the Alliance, the Citadel, mass relays, Reapers Turians, quarians or anyhting in MAss effect. It's just lines of code. so by that logic Ashley is just lines of code so her outfit doesn't matter, her entire existence doens't matter by the "they are just lines of code" arguement.

[ADLegend21]

Em23 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Em23 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

do you ahve any idea how idiotic that sounds?How can I not debate Mass effect using Mass Effect? what am I supposed to debate it with KOTOR?

Look at my other posts above, hopefully they explain it well enough

obviously not. we're talking about a fictitious characer yet you say my arguement sucks because I'm using fictitious facts from her universe. That makes 0 sense. I her being fiction make sthsi invalid why are we even talking about it then?

Have a look at my other 2 consecutive posts above (still on this page) and respond to them, if you can point out what i'm missing in my logic there I'd be very surprised but interested.


edit: eg. if your argument was valid, you could, by the same logic, invent all sorts of offensive species and get away with it by saying that in their culture said behaviour is actually a mark of great respect.

She's clearly respected by every asari you come across involving her. the tracking officer, detective anaya, the eclipse mercs you kill for her recruitment mission even fear and respect her. TIM does as well that's why he wanted Shepard to recruit her. You think soeone's going to call her on showing some skin when she can pull a car out of the sky? I sure do pity the foo'.

[who would know]

I think it's important to remember the intent behind this design. Saying something like "she's a grown woman, she can wear whatever she wants" is both failing to realize that this character is at the mercy of the developers, and attempting to excuse the sexism of the entire situation, which only makes your ignorance of the character's core values and your readiness to turn a blind eye to pandering* readily apparent.

*To players who would've otherwise gone into T&A withdrawl for lack of Miranda; to players who need their video game women to be easy eyecandy, no matter the cost to character; to players who need a female in a vacuum sealed suit, heels, and makeup before she becomes worthy of their time or attention.

Mind you, this does not describe everyone who likes the change, rather it describes who the change was made for.

In the end, this is about character. For any another character, I may not have liked this "development", but I wouldn't have had half the ammunition I do here. I mean, I don't like Miranda's catsuit, and I don't really believe it gels with her character (despite assertations otherwise), but I wouldn't be making as much noise if this was Miranda's new design. However, this is Ashley, and this new design is unrealistic, damaging, disrespectful to the character we've grown to know and, as is commonly the case, love.

And for anybody who believes Kaidan will be forced into anything similarly debasing, fair would be fair, but brace yourself for disappointment. He's a man, so he's safe from this ****.

Modifié par who would know, 10 décembre 2011 - 07:06 .

[ADLegend21]

Sexism? Really? in ME1 Ashley wore thick heavy armor on my romance play through my Sheprard is an adept so along with Kaidan they get bodysuit ish light armor showing off their pecs and abs. She's the only girl on the combat squad yet she has the most coverage in combat. She's also completely covered in her ME3 outfit while Vega stands next to her in a shirt similar to Hulk Hogans that shows off his muscles for the ladies. No one is mentioning how the men are portrayed in all this. Everyone remembers Miranda being in a skin tight suit, yet forget Jacob is in the same thing and he gets his own butt shot camera angles and both expose their torso's during the romance scene. (Jacob more becuase Mrianda wears a bra) if your going to complain about one sex, check the other for the same thing. The Men in Mass effect get just as much exposure as the ladies but I guess it's okay for the guys to show themselves off, but when a lady does it she's changed and being sexed up.

Modifié par ADLegend21, 10 décembre 2011 - 07:10 .

[Sgt Stryker]

who would know wrote...

I think it's important to remember the intent behind this design. Saying something like "she's a grown woman, she can wear whatever she wants" is both failing to realize that this character is at the mercy of the developers, and attempting to excuse the sexism of the entire situation, which only makes your ignorance of the character's core values and your readiness to turn a blind eye to pandering* readily apparent.

*To players who would've otherwise gone into T&A withdrawl for lack of Miranda; to players who need their video game women to be easy eyecandy, no matter the cost to character; to players who need a female in a vacuum sealed suit, heels, and makeup before she becomes worthy of their time or attention.

Isn't that what Playboy is for???


Anyway, ADLegend's argument regarding Samara's outfit would be fine - if it actually had at least some sort of in-universe justification. However, there is no in-universe justification. No Codex entry about "traditional justicar uniforms", no dialogue, nothing!

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 10 décembre 2011 - 07:13 .

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

Em23 wrote...

Samara's outfit was created to be sexy for the HUMANS playing the game, not as a sign of toughness to intimidate other asari since they are just lines of code and therefore cannot be intimidated.

Yeah, that is the out-of-universe reason here in meatspace and probably not for any other reason, but his argument was with in-universe fiction.  You can't counter an apple with an onion, then you're just arguing two different things.  Again, it's about the immersion in the 'rules and laws' of the fictional universe, not judging through the human lense in the one we actually inhabit.  Answering the question "Why didn't Romeo and Juliet just elope?" with "Because that's how Shakespeare wrote it" completely misses the point of the very act of storytelling.

Em23 wrote...
How does it make any sense to argue that Samara's outfit is proffessional/respectable etc because in asari culture bearing cleavage it's not sexual but a sign of toughness when in this world there are only humans and for us it is sexual and stupid when bullets are flying?

That's why it's in-universe.  It's called suspension of disbelief.  As a work of fiction,pretty much any culture can be invented and have any qualities the creator imbues them with.  Klingons and Zheeerlikou'valkhannaiee are both fictional and both have strong honor codes about how to go about conducting battle; preferably hand-to-hand, even in the age of FTL travel and powered combat armor, where it is more honorable to expose oneself directly to risk than to be a 'coward' who hides behind armor or pushes a button from kilometers away.

Em23 wrote...

So it'd be ok for bioware to add a humanoid species where everyone is completely naked if in their culture clothes are evil?

Actually yeah.  Or if their culture doesn't have such a concept as shame, or if their planet had ideal conditions that didn't warrant protective clothing during their equivalent of the stone ages just for survival (or if they live in water that buffers their bodies like, I dunno, the Hanar [okay, not humanoid but so what? They're sentient]; or if they're
humanoid bug people like, oh say, the Collectors, who are physically hardy enough to not even require protective clothing in the first place [naked is naked, even if you can't see their junk]), or if their culture underwent a social revolution... there could be many different reasons.  Considering clothing to be "evil" would probably be silly, but if it was a culture of honesty and transparency you could posit that clothing would be seen as concealment and hiding something from others (not just physically but also emotionally and factually, in essence being branded as a liar and someone who is untrustworthy and therefore an outcast).

That wouldn't make it any saner or logical when hypersonic slugs are whizzing around, but that's not to say such a culture could not be written or would not make sense which is what I'm getting from what you're saying (I'm sure there are at least 3 different nude cultures in Star Trek, most notably the Betazoid wedding but that's just for special occasions, not 24/7).  Heck we still have enough variety on Earth from the naked tribal people in the Amazon and Africa to nude beaches in Europe and hippie nudist colonies to draw influences from, much less completely different biologies and cultures that followed different evolutionary paths.


But back to armor, "Here I am, deliberately vulnerable in an area near vital organs, this is a challenge to your ability to defeat me, and I am confident enough in my ability to defeat you instead, to expose myself to risk" is similar to how poison dart frogs are so flagrantly colored and obvious.  They don't even bother trying to conceal themselves because they know their own capabilities.

Do I sound like a kook yet?

[super ninja edit] Flipped the order of quote responses to respond to the second post first for TL;DR syndrome.

Modifié par Mighty_BOB_cnc, 10 décembre 2011 - 07:16 .

[Ryzaki]

Not at above poster. I apparently typed too slow.

Please note what was said "during the love scene." That's the time sexualization is not only perfectly reasonable but expected.

I have no issue with Miranda's bra sceen because it's during the romance

I have issue with Miranda's ass being in the middle of my screen when we're having a conversation about trying to save her sister.

Do you see the difference?

As for Jacob's ass (he shares this ridiculous ass shot with Miranda). I thought it was silly and ridiculous and undermined the whole scene. However he *is* the only male that gets treated that way. (And most of his sexualization is where it should be his romance or when Shep's commenting on his body). If Miranda's "dat ass" shot was when Shep was talking about admiring her body? Hell I'd be fine with it. It makes sense in context and isn't there needlessly.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 décembre 2011 - 07:14 .

[jeweledleah]

1. sexualizing males doesn't excuse sexualizing ladies. 2 wrongs do NOT make a right.
2. Vega is wearing a typical light duty (or off duty, but on base) outfit for a soldier, of photographs from real life warzones are anything to go by
3. if its normal for Asari to show cleavage, how come every asari BUT Benezia and Samara not only have it covered, but are practically wearing turtlenecks. how come Asari councilwoman is wearing aforementioned turtleneck, being powerful woman and all.

no wait - I'm wrong. there ARE asari's that are showing off skin. ladies dancing in clubs, strippers and Sha'ira, the consort.

hmmm... interesting, isn't it?

[Sgt Stryker]

Ryzaki wrote...
Please note what was said "during the love scene." That's the time sexualization is not only perfectly reasonable but expected.

I have no issue with Miranda's bra sceen because it's during the romance

I have issue with Miranda's ass being in the middle of my screen when we're having a conversation about trying to save her sister.

Do you see the difference?

Spoken well, human!

What ever happened to people being covered up in non-sexualized clothing in ordinary scenarios, and completely naked in sex scenes? You know, like in ME1? (And in the real world, for that matter!)

[Ziggy]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Em23 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Em23 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

do you ahve any idea how idiotic that sounds?How can I not debate Mass effect using Mass Effect? what am I supposed to debate it with KOTOR?

Look at my other posts above, hopefully they explain it well enough

obviously not. we're talking about a fictitious characer yet you say my arguement sucks because I'm using fictitious facts from her universe. That makes 0 sense. I her being fiction make sthsi invalid why are we even talking about it then?

Have a look at my other 2 consecutive posts above (still on this page) and respond to them, if you can point out what i'm missing in my logic there I'd be very surprised but interested.


edit: eg. if your argument was valid, you could, by the same logic, invent all sorts of offensive species and get away with it by saying that in their culture said behaviour is actually a mark of great respect.

She's clearly respected by every asari you come across involving her. the tracking officer, detective anaya, the eclipse mercs you kill for her recruitment mission even fear and respect her. TIM does as well that's why he wanted Shepard to recruit her. You think soeone's going to call her on showing some skin when she can pull a car out of the sky? I sure do pity the foo'.

How about this.

What if Samaras outfit was to be completely naked as in asari culture this means she is uber powerful and deserving of great respect and she is treated as such.

You could take these examples to further extremes. Do you perhaps now see now how games are not immune from real life issues via internal justifications?
You cannot use internal lore arguments to excuse things in games that are offensive or exploititive in real life.

[who would know]

Re: conversation on in-universe rules. The rules of a fictional universe can excuse these designs all they want, but they never quite eclipse the basic rules of the real world that we bring into the game by default. Arguing for these "sexy" designs by using in-universe rules smacks of naivety and eagerness to excuse ridiculousness.

[Ziggy]

@ Mighty_BOB_cnc

Games are not immune from real life issues!

Don't you see that if what you say is true, you open a door to games where any sick fantasy is possible to play out when all you have to do is say that "for this species it is totally fine and actually a very healthy thing to do" ??

Modifié par Em23, 10 décembre 2011 - 07:30 .

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

 Sigh.. pressed the submit button.. gimme a minute..

Modifié par Mighty_BOB_cnc, 10 décembre 2011 - 07:30 .