1663 réponses à ce sujet

[Ziggy]

Also I love role playing and immersion, but things like the obvious sexualisation of characters for some flimsy lore reason or for no reason at all BREAK said immersion.

[Ziggy]

who would know wrote...

Re: conversation on in-universe rules. The rules of a fictional universe can excuse these designs all they want, but they never quite eclipse the basic rules of the real world that we bring into the game by default. Arguing for these "sexy" designs by using in-universe rules smacks of naivety and eagerness to excuse ridiculousness.

Thank you!
Someone else gets it.

[ADLegend21]

you're reaching. She's clothed, everyone is unless there's some nudist colony we skipped over in the first two games. Also as Leah said other asari do show skin, Benezia being one of them, the consort does NOT show much skin until the mini love scene, Aria T'loak does and she runs Omega and has a strong influence in the terminnus. right there, Three powerful asari with incredible influence Show a little bit of skin.

Also it's not 2 wrongs. sexism is treating one sex different than the other, but there's no sexism because both sexes get the same treatment. Ashley's outfit is thicker than Vega's and much more protected, female and Male Shepard have similar outfits so the protagonist isn't sexualized and ashley's final armor is going to be similar to said protagonist! Her casual outfit is her business as a character and she's grown alot from that semi naive gunnery Chief that scoffed at asari armor because it was alien, that was skeptical of working with wrex and Garrus, and skeptical of the STG units on Virmire (when she's not with them she says " I hope we can count on those Salrians" with a rather venomous tone.) She's been matured 3 years and has alot more training and responsibilty. She dresses like a Spectre (supposedly sice every non Shepard Spectre has only been seen in combat armor) and probably acts like a Spectre but we don't know since she's not in any of the official demos since that spotlight belongs to Garrus and Liara. You're all judging a book by it's cover,you don't liek the cover you just assume it's crappy, but you don't know what's in it.

[ADLegend21]

who would know wrote...

Re: conversation on in-universe rules. The rules of a fictional universe can excuse these designs all they want, but they never quite eclipse the basic rules of the real world that we bring into the game by default. Arguing for these "sexy" designs by using in-universe rules smacks of naivety and eagerness to excuse ridiculousness.

Really? I don't seem to remember news reports of interspecies couples, interpsecies negotiations, military partner ships, biotics, AI, and glactic extinction being discussed in the real world, but those are definitely big discussion topics in Mass Effect's universe. it's just like the Legion quote I posted earlier, oyu judge a universe by it's own merits not your own. Mass Effect 3 is 175 years in the future you can't compare that to now. THAT smacks of Naivety. Also how is it ridculous to like an outfit that completely covers a person?  you can argue that it's not about the coverage but you come back saying she's not covered properly! it's a damn circle, more like a snake that eats it's own tail really.

[Ryzaki]

I see. So tell my brother he's stupid because he's a man and telling my sister she's stupid because she's a female means I'm not making sexist comments because I treated them the same. Kay then.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 décembre 2011 - 07:45 .

[Ziggy]

ADLegend21 wrote...

you're reaching. She's clothed, everyone is unless there's some nudist colony we skipped over in the first two games. Also as Leah said other asari do show skin, Benezia being one of them, the consort does NOT show much skin until the mini love scene, Aria T'loak does and she runs Omega and has a strong influence in the terminnus. right there, Three powerful asari with incredible influence Show a little bit of skin.

I was using that as an example to of how your justification of real world issues people have with the game by saying that in the game it's not an issue does not work.

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

jeweledleah wrote...

3. if its normal for Asari to show cleavage, how come every asari BUT Benezia and Samara not only have it covered, but are practically wearing turtlenecks. how come Asari councilwoman is wearing aforementioned turtleneck, being powerful woman and all.

no wait - I'm wrong. there ARE asari's that are showing off skin. ladies dancing in clubs, strippers and Sha'ira, the consort.

hmmm... interesting, isn't it?

Not all humans wear bright orange Buddhist robes or kozane dou of the Samurai. By their own admission the Justicar is an ancient concept, not up-to-date on the latest fashions of the citadel.  Not everyone is a monk or samurai, not every Asari is a Justicar.

jeweledleah wrote...

1. sexualizing males doesn't excuse sexualizing ladies. 2 wrongs do NOT make a right.

Absolutely, it's a terrible double-standard that's deeply ingrained in our society and needs to be torn out at the root.

Em23 wrote...

@ Mighty_BOB_cnc

Games are not immune from real life issues!

Don't you see that if what you say is true, you open a door to games where any sick fantasy is possible to play out when all you have to do is say that "for this species it is totally fine and actually a very healthy thing to do" ??

Agreed.

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Anyway, ADLegend's argument regarding Samara's outfit would be fine - if it actually had at least some sort of in-universe justification. However, there is no in-universe justification. No Codex entry about "traditional justicar uniforms", no dialogue, nothing!

I'm pretty confident that there is something somewhere, but it is only a sliver of information at best and that basically opens it up for speculation, such as ADLegend's. Although I could swear I read something about the costume design in a behind-the-scenes-at-BioWare type of article, or perhaps video.. but I'd never be able to find that and it probably only counts as soft canon (ramble ramble ramble)... but yeah you're right I'm pretty much just arguing a hypothetical here as the Devil's Advocate, I actually hate Ashley's new look.

[edit] Formatting.. christ can we get some standard editor (phpbb, ipb, vbulletin) that doesn't jack up line spacing...

Modifié par Mighty_BOB_cnc, 10 décembre 2011 - 07:50 .

[ADLegend21]

Ryzaki wrote...

I see. So tell my brother he's stupid because he's a man and telling my sister he's stupid because she's a female means I'm not making a sexist comment. Kay then.

that's completely different from clothing. you're making a generalization with the quoted post, but if both sexes dress in similar fashions it's not sexist when Miranda is wearing a body suit and Jacob is wearing the same. It's a uniform then since more than one person wears it. same way Ashley and Kaidan both wear the same casual outfit as each other. it's a uniform. The alliance as obviously abandoned the old everyone in blue shirts and cargo pants. Vega has his own out fit, shepard has their own Ashley has her own and I think Kaidan's is unique to him as well who knows we've only seen his armor and his is supposed to be lighter since he's a sentinel but his character isn't down the path of ruin because of that now is it?

[jeweledleah]

ADLegend21 wrote...

you're reaching. She's clothed, everyone is unless there's some nudist colony we skipped over in the first two games. Also as Leah said other asari do show skin, Benezia being one of them, the consort does NOT show much skin until the mini love scene, Aria T'loak does and she runs Omega and has a strong influence in the terminnus. right there, Three powerful asari with incredible influence Show a little bit of skin.

Also it's not 2 wrongs. sexism is treating one sex different than the other, but there's no sexism because both sexes get the same treatment. Ashley's outfit is thicker than Vega's and much more protected, female and Male Shepard have similar outfits so the protagonist isn't sexualized and ashley's final armor is going to be similar to said protagonist! Her casual outfit is her business as a character and she's grown alot from that semi naive gunnery Chief that scoffed at asari armor because it was alien, that was skeptical of working with wrex and Garrus, and skeptical of the STG units on Virmire (when she's not with them she says " I hope we can count on those Salrians" with a rather venomous tone.) She's been matured 3 years and has alot more training and responsibilty. She dresses like a Spectre (supposedly sice every non Shepard Spectre has only been seen in combat armor) and probably acts like a Spectre but we don't know since she's not in any of the official demos since that spotlight belongs to Garrus and Liara. You're all judging a book by it's cover,you don't liek the cover you just assume it's crappy, but you don't know what's in it.

you are misquoting me, AD.  Benezia is one of those Asaris that doesn't make sence.  the only Asari other then certain key characters that show skin?  are either out clubbing, or working in some sort of sex service professions.  Shaira DOES show skin.  that blue on her hips and belly that you see?  that's her skin.  those are very strategic cutouts, just like stripper outfits have very strategicaly placed cutouts.

also - you are comparing apples and oranges when it comes to Vega vs Ashley.  she just came from a meeting.  he just came from an equivalent of a break room.  his outfit is not supposed to be worn into combat.

and once again - sexualizing men and turning them into objects is NOT ok, any more then its ok for women, and the fact that there's one male character that they did it to?  doesn't magicaly excuse Samara, Miranda, new Ashley.  its funny.  Jack is showing more skin and looks less sexualized.  why is that?  its because of the way her outfit is designed - its purpose is to shock, not to look sexy.

[ADLegend21]

Em23 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

you're reaching. She's clothed, everyone is unless there's some nudist colony we skipped over in the first two games. Also as Leah said other asari do show skin, Benezia being one of them, the consort does NOT show much skin until the mini love scene, Aria T'loak does and she runs Omega and has a strong influence in the terminnus. right there, Three powerful asari with incredible influence Show a little bit of skin.

I was using that as an example to of how your justification of real world issues people have with the game by saying that in the game it's not an issue does not work.

What real world issue? it's not women being sexualized because their outfits are similar to their male counterparts. Again if you're gonna complain about them complain about the dudes. complain that EVERYONE is being sexualized, not "why does ashley look different?" it should be "why does everyone look different?" and the answer to that is times change and characters grow.

[Ryzaki]

ADLegend21 wrote...
that's completely different from clothing. you're making a generalization with the quoted post, but if both sexes dress in similar fashions it's not sexist when Miranda is wearing a body suit and Jacob is wearing the same. It's a uniform then since more than one person wears it. same way Ashley and Kaidan both wear the same casual outfit as each other. it's a uniform. The alliance as obviously abandoned the old everyone in blue shirts and cargo pants. Vega has his own out fit, shepard has their own Ashley has her own and I think Kaidan's is unique to him as well who knows we've only seen his armor and his is supposed to be lighter since he's a sentinel but his character isn't down the path of ruin because of that now is it?

...Miranda and Jacob are not wearing uniforms. The Cerberus uniform is available to Shep and it certainly isn't that tight. They're wearing personalized outfits (that are form fitting) with a Cerberus logo. It is not a uniform. Everyone else is wearing the uniform. And it's not even the "not a grunt" uniform either because that's one of Shep's options.

And they are not wearing the same outfit so why are you calling it a uniform? 

Ash and Kaidan are actually wearing the same outfit (that Shep also wears along with several other crewmembers). So yes that would be closer to a uniform (though it's far likier to simply be casual clothing and BW didn't bother giving them different outfits).

As for Kaidan wearing heavier armor...uh...yeah considering he's expecting to be in constant dangerous combat (far more so than in ME1) with swarms of enemies (in particular husks that like to pummel people with their fists). I'd expect everyone who could use heavy armor to be throwing some on. So yes that actually makes perfect sense. Going from heavy armor to light armor when you openly mocked those who did so? Not so much.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 décembre 2011 - 08:02 .

[Ziggy]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Em23 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

you're reaching. She's clothed, everyone is unless there's some nudist colony we skipped over in the first two games. Also as Leah said other asari do show skin, Benezia being one of them, the consort does NOT show much skin until the mini love scene, Aria T'loak does and she runs Omega and has a strong influence in the terminnus. right there, Three powerful asari with incredible influence Show a little bit of skin.

I was using that as an example to of how your justification of real world issues people have with the game by saying that in the game it's not an issue does not work.

What real world issue? it's not women being sexualized because their outfits are similar to their male counterparts. Again if you're gonna complain about them complain about the dudes. complain that EVERYONE is being sexualized, not "why does ashley look different?" it should be "why does everyone look different?" and the answer to that is times change and characters grow.

Ok, I give up. I just made the most disgusting omelette and am getting too tired and hungry to think anymore. I just wish ash had outfits I could believe her me1 self would wear and hope she gets proper armour and wish they would stop sexualising characters (esp women) so much in games in general. have fun

[ADLegend21]

jeweledleah wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

you're reaching. She's clothed, everyone is unless there's some nudist colony we skipped over in the first two games. Also as Leah said other asari do show skin, Benezia being one of them, the consort does NOT show much skin until the mini love scene, Aria T'loak does and she runs Omega and has a strong influence in the terminnus. right there, Three powerful asari with incredible influence Show a little bit of skin.

Also it's not 2 wrongs. sexism is treating one sex different than the other, but there's no sexism because both sexes get the same treatment. Ashley's outfit is thicker than Vega's and much more protected, female and Male Shepard have similar outfits so the protagonist isn't sexualized and ashley's final armor is going to be similar to said protagonist! Her casual outfit is her business as a character and she's grown alot from that semi naive gunnery Chief that scoffed at asari armor because it was alien, that was skeptical of working with wrex and Garrus, and skeptical of the STG units on Virmire (when she's not with them she says " I hope we can count on those Salrians" with a rather venomous tone.) She's been matured 3 years and has alot more training and responsibilty. She dresses like a Spectre (supposedly sice every non Shepard Spectre has only been seen in combat armor) and probably acts like a Spectre but we don't know since she's not in any of the official demos since that spotlight belongs to Garrus and Liara. You're all judging a book by it's cover,you don't liek the cover you just assume it's crappy, but you don't know what's in it.

you are misquoting me, AD.  Benezia is one of those Asaris that doesn't make sence.  the only Asari other then certain key characters that show skin?  are either out clubbing, or working in some sort of sex service professions.  Shaira DOES show skin.  that blue on her hips and belly that you see?  that's her skin.  those are very strategic cutouts, just like stripper outfits have very strategicaly placed cutouts.

also - you are comparing apples and oranges when it comes to Vega vs Ashley.  she just came from a meeting.  he just came from an equivalent of a break room.  his outfit is not supposed to be worn into combat.

and once again - sexualizing men and turning them into objects is NOT ok, any more then its ok for women, and the fact that there's one male character that they did it to?  doesn't magicaly excuse Samara, Miranda, new Ashley.  its funny.  Jack is showing more skin and looks less sexualized.  why is that?  its because of the way her outfit is designed - its purpose is to shock, not to look sexy.

touche, but you're not discounting Aria, She's a businesswoman and a political leader in the terminus, you also know not to **** with aria, but she has strategically placed cutouts like the consort and the other asari you mention.

Shepard's wasn't either, since shepard can be female She will also being going blind into spontaneous combat in a TShirt and Pants. because it's a suprise attack by the Reapers. her outfit is formal, it's a suit jacket with the Spectre logo on it and comes with padding in case of emergency. It's not like the Reapers sent us a message "oh we're gonna attack at 12 noon EST so make sure you all have your armor k?". Shepard and Anderson roll through that combat sequence with no armor and come out fine. Ashey is on the Normandy away from combat and comes to get shepard for a pick up and escape She's not jumping off that ship so she Commands the ship and picks shepard up and is ready to give covering fire in case they're still in danger. I think Casey is probably tired of having to tell us she's getting armor when the game and various things aren't even finished, remmeber in the leaked demo there was a dude stuck in a window? but then again this is the BSN we got one picture of James Vega and everyone dismissed him as a boring muscle head and people openly said they hated him.

[ADLegend21]

Em23 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Em23 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

you're reaching. She's clothed, everyone is unless there's some nudist colony we skipped over in the first two games. Also as Leah said other asari do show skin, Benezia being one of them, the consort does NOT show much skin until the mini love scene, Aria T'loak does and she runs Omega and has a strong influence in the terminnus. right there, Three powerful asari with incredible influence Show a little bit of skin.

I was using that as an example to of how your justification of real world issues people have with the game by saying that in the game it's not an issue does not work.

What real world issue? it's not women being sexualized because their outfits are similar to their male counterparts. Again if you're gonna complain about them complain about the dudes. complain that EVERYONE is being sexualized, not "why does ashley look different?" it should be "why does everyone look different?" and the answer to that is times change and characters grow.

Ok, I give up. I just made the most disgusting omelette and am getting too tired and hungry to think anymore. I just wish ash had outfits I could believe her me1 self would wear and hope she gets proper armour and wish they would stop sexualising characters (esp women) so much in games in general. have fun

Sh's not her ME1 self. She's not Gunnery Chirf Ashley Williams. Now She's Lt Commander Ashely Williams of the SPEcial Tactics and REconaissance branch of the Citadel. If you're looking for ME 1 ashley play ME1 you won't find that grunt in Mass Effect 3.

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

I'll just leave this over here.

[Quole]

Because she wanted to be like Miranda. Not sure why, considering thats a downgrade.

[ADLegend21]

Ryzaki wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
that's completely different from clothing. you're making a generalization with the quoted post, but if both sexes dress in similar fashions it's not sexist when Miranda is wearing a body suit and Jacob is wearing the same. It's a uniform then since more than one person wears it. same way Ashley and Kaidan both wear the same casual outfit as each other. it's a uniform. The alliance as obviously abandoned the old everyone in blue shirts and cargo pants. Vega has his own out fit, shepard has their own Ashley has her own and I think Kaidan's is unique to him as well who knows we've only seen his armor and his is supposed to be lighter since he's a sentinel but his character isn't down the path of ruin because of that now is it?

...Miranda and Jacob are not wearing uniforms. The Cerberus uniform is available to Shep and it certainly isn't that tight. They're wearing personalized outfits (that are form fitting) with a Cerberus logo. It is not a uniform. Everyone else is wearing the uniform. And it's not even the "not a grunt" uniform either because that's one of Shep's options.

And they are not wearing the same outfit so why are you calling it a uniform? 

Ash and Kaidan are actually wearing the same outfit (that Shep also wears along with several other crewmembers). So yes that would be closer to a uniform (though it's far likier to simply be casual clothing and BW didn't bother giving them different outfits).

As for Kaidan wearing heavier armor...uh...yeah considering he's expecting to be in constant dangerous combat (far more so than in ME1) with swarms of enemies (in particular husks that like to pummel people with their fists). I'd expect everyone who could use heavy armor to be throwing some on. So yes that actually makes perfect sense. Going from heavy armor to light armor when you openly mocked those who did so? Not so much.

Actually Jacob and Miranda are the only cerberus combat personell on the ship so it can be thought of as the combat uniform (until Miranda's AAP armor) Shepard gets the Grunt outfit or a nice captain's jacket because Shepard runs the ship and dresses how the player chooses which is why shepard also gets a little black dress to wear whole commanding her ship.

Considering Ashley's changein combat style (She specializes in AR's and snipers and damage dealing as she's no longer a damage sponge sinc that's Vega's job now) it dos make sense for her armmor thickness to go down. She's more stealthy and agile now. It wouldn't surprise me if Ashley would use Vega similar to this little clip right here since he's now the meat shield. If anyhting she'll go down to Medium armor since that's what she started in and that's the maximum and infiltrator can get to in ME1.

[Ryzaki]

ME3 shows us Cerberus combat uniforms. It is not remotely near what Miranda and Jacob are wearing.

But right I'm done. Neither of us will go anywhere.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 décembre 2011 - 08:14 .

[ADLegend21]

Ryzaki wrote...

ME3 shows us Cerberus combat uniforms. It is not remotely near what Miranda and Jacob are wearing.

But right I'm done. Neither of us will go anywhere.

well everything has been updated so it's really a coin toss. agree to disagree then.

[jeweledleah]

its highly amusing, watching you guys scramble, trying to find in game justification for purely out of game design decisions.

P.S. I happen to have that very lovely Cerberus combat Armor that Shepard gets as an option. I never use it becasue the helmet is not removable, but I did take a look at it. even in ME2 - we had a chance to look at the actualy combat armor Cerberus is supposed to be wearing. via Shepard. and its actual armor, not that catsuit deal that Jacob and Miranda wear. but I forget - Shepard is so very special that he/she has to wear armor even though its apparently unnecessary.

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...

its highly amusing, watching you guys scramble, trying to find in game justification for purely out of game design decisions.

P.S. I happen to have that very lovely Cerberus combat Armor that Shepard gets as an option. I never use it becasue the helmet is not removable, but I did take a look at it. even in ME2 - we had a chance to look at the actualy combat armor Cerberus is supposed to be wearing. via Shepard. and its actual armor, not that catsuit deal that Jacob and Miranda wear. but I forget - Shepard is so very special that he/she has to wear armor even though its apparently unnecessary.

Oh yeah I forgot about that DLC.

Probably because I couldn't remove the damn helmet. <_< 

But here



It's far closer to Miranda's AAP armor than her original outfit.

And really I don't know why the devs didn't just give her some nice heavy armor. It's not like armor can't be attractive (Vasir) so...meh.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 décembre 2011 - 08:24 .

[GodWood]

I love how people try to justify this trash.

The fanservicy outfits are purely so some dudebros get some ****** material.

[ADLegend21]

also a casual to casual comparison:

Shep and Chakwas included


Her standing next to a female Admiral who's in an Alliance uniform while she's in a Spectre uniform. The other Spectre in the room is in a dark T-Shirt and pants because he's been on house arrest.

(also her outfit does have alliance and Spectre colors I forget who said it wasn't the same color so here's your proof)

Note the shoulders on her then and now. the new outfit has padding similar to Mordin's outfit and salrian armor (gasp alien influence on her outfit) Her fashion tastes have changed for off duty wear from when she was A 26 year odl soldier who hadn't been on a space rotation passed basic to the 29 year old that's seen alot and probably has had a few postings in space and seen alot more combat than she had on a sleepy farming colony.

[Ryzaki]

Frankly to be perfectly honest I think the outfit is just plain ugly and the color looks bad with her skin. If she's really supposed to be addressing anyone important in that she really should've looked in the mirror.

Trade those ugly white pants with some black or dark blue and make that blue jacket either black or just darker and it would go a long way towards looking less hideous. Her AA of that looks far more pleasing to the eye.

Let's not forget the people on the bottom are a group of professionals addressing other professionals. They should not look completely casual. They are not. Anderson is clearly wearing a decent looking uniform as is the female officer.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 décembre 2011 - 08:31 .

[Sgt Stryker]

GodWood wrote...

I love how people try to justify this trash.

The fanservicy outfits are purely so some dudebros get some ****** material.

Well then the dudebros should consider checking out this wonderful thing called pornography. No seriously, a sci-fi game should not have ****** material in it, anymore than ****** material should have a sci-fi story in it.