14 réponses à ce sujet

[Jestus]

After reading the Orzammar portion of the epilogue, it made me wonder three things:

1. Since picking Harrowmont seemed to be detrimental to Orzammar in the long run, does anyone know what happens if you pick Belen?

2. I noticed that the dwarf that I had build a chantry was killed. Is there any action you can take in game to prevent this?

3. I destroyed the Anvil of the Void, yet it seemed there was a still a partially negative effect there, as dwarves attempted to recreate the anvil and bind it to a Fade spirit, where the golem went crazy and killed many dwarves. Anyone know what happens if you save the anvil instead?

Thanks in advance.

[Melra]

1. Bhelen does it better. His changes improve things.



2. I don't know, other than not helping chantry to get place in Orzammar



3. Well it's one of the better ends I believe. With Harrowmont and anvil, he begins to do raids to surface and uses elves and such to create golems. If you leave it be with Bhelen, I think he eventually attempts to destroy it himself, but Branka will do same as the previous Paragon and locks herself up.

[kahare]

It's easy to miss (mostly because I think the scenario was intentionally written to make it almost impossible to make a decision for which king to back based on policy rather than propaganda) but you can find a merchant in the Commons who says he supports Bhalen because he's for trade and progress. Zevran, if he's in your party when you talk to Harrowmont's 'second', also notes that Harrowmont would not make a very firm king because he can't even control his own people, he needs you to do it.

[Jestus]

I see. On a slightly similar note, if you spare Loghain, can you have him kill himself in sacrifice killing the Archdemon.

[Cuuniyevo]

I think it's much more enjoyable to role-play the experience rather than try to 'get the best possible result'. For instance, my character was a Noble Dwarf who believed that the old ways were the right ways and surface Dwarves were rightfully ostracized. Combine that with Bhelen's betrayal and there was no way I was ever going to support his bid for the throne. That being said, I couldn't help but notice that the experience for almost every other origin would be such that Bhelen would be the obvious correct choice. Choosing Harrowmont is only logical if you're playing a Dwarf.

EDIT: Oh and as for the Dwarven Chantry, I was dismissive of him and he left. So…yeah, he lived on but never got a mention in the Epilogue. =P I've only finished one playthrough so far, so I can't actually answer your question with certainty, but it stands to reason that no, you cannot save him if he builds the Chantry. The Chantry is in direct opposition to the ways of the Dwarves, going back millenia. I'm not saying it's right, but the fact is that many missionaries from many religions have been martyred over the years, and the fact that this is a fantasy game shouldn't cloud over or sugarcoat it. A small minority of people are so zealous about their beliefs that they will murder anyone they perceive to be in opposition to that faith. This is supposed to be a dark and mature game after all…

As for the Anvil, I think the epilogue was quite realistic in that regard. Somebody was bound to rediscover it eventually and that they wouldn't know how to properly use it is also reasonable. Many stories over the years have had similar elements.

Modifié par Cuuniyevo, 22 novembre 2009 - 08:12 .

[kahare]

Cuuniyevo, I actually considered having my dwarven noble side with his brother rather than Harrowmont. It seems like you can play your character as appreciative of your brother's machinations and, if you think about it, just like you couldn't unravel his actions in two days it's easy to see that Harrowmont would be just as unable to fight against Bhalen's plans. You could assume your noble appreciates Bhalen's 'ability to play the game' so to speak.

[Ophidios]

Eh, I picked Harrowmont and I was a goody-two shoes Human through my first playthrough. Picking Bhelen seems like such a horrible thing to do. Everybody knows that the king wanted Harrowmont to take the throne. People's reactions to me seemed nearly criminal because I supported Bhelen the second time through. Even Branka was annoyed that I supported Bhelen.

[Dagganoth_]

yer on my first run though i stared to help bhelen but then i found out about his forged pappers and though stuff him trying to trick me into tricking others.

[Tankenminnet]

I sided with Harrowmount because I thought he seemed to be a lot more compassionate about things. Problem with Belen is that he's a better ruler, but he does it by means I don't approve of- blackmail, murder, betrayal etc.

[ComTrav]

I like this ambiguity a lot--none of the decisions you make turn out 100 percent well.



I wonder why the dwarves get stuck with it, though, when there's a "make everyone happy!" solution in several other parts of the game. I guess it's just tough to be a dwarf.

[Cuuniyevo]

Kahare, that would certainly be one way to play it, and I actually did think of that possibility, but that wasn't the character I was playing. To suddenly decide to go that route after playing in a completely different manner for the rest of the game would seem like a betrayal to my own avatar.



Just to sum up my position on this: I think people should role-play the decisions and do what their character would likely do without any regard to what the result will be. You and I might know what the result will be and we might know what will happen next, but our characters do not. They haven't lived it yet.



Ophidios: Sure, the Dwarven people seem to want Harrowmont, but Bhelen is stronger and more likely to open up trade with the surface. If the Dwarves stay underground, Humans and Elves gain nothing. Also, Bhelen is the quicker route for someone who is trying to stop the Blight and doesn't really care about who rules Orzammar. Bhelen is distasteful, but unless you actually have a personal stake in the situation, you can ignore a person's shortcomings. One example would be a certain Human Noble in Denerim that you can free from Howe's prison. If you play as an Elf or as an Elf-sympathizer, then you might have a hard time dealing with him, but my character didn't care about him or his opinions because he had no personal stake in it. My character just wanted more support in the Landsmeet.

[Red Viking]

Tankenminnet wrote...

I sided with Harrowmount because I thought he seemed to be a lot more compassionate about things. Problem with Belen is that he's a better ruler, but he does it by means I don't approve of- blackmail, murder, betrayal etc.

That's why it's interesting.  The whole situation is based directly upon the dwarven value system.  What Behlen does seems monsterous by our standards but is actually considered normal by dwarven standards.  In addition, Harrowmount may seem like the compassionate choice at first, but he's very traditionalistic.  This means that he supports the rigid caste system whereas Behlen wants to abolish it.

In other words, the person who is most compassionate completely depends on your point of view.

Cuuniyevo wrote...

Also, Bhelen is the quicker route for
someone who is trying to stop the Blight and doesn't really care about
who rules Orzammar.

I completely disagree with this.  Play as a Dwarf Commoner, and you'll get some very strong reasons as to why you want to support Behlen.

Modifié par Red Viking, 22 novembre 2009 - 08:40 .

[Lord Dagon]

I supported Bhelen because it seemed I could support only one or the other, and not much between the two of them to decide who would give the best reward. I'm not sure but it seems the Dwarven fighters you can call on later on is fixed in number whatever you do and I couldn't tell whether the donated gem resources had any effect.



I chose to destroy the anvil of the void but in so doing had to make the difficult choice to kill the paragon Branka which Oghren disapproved after the battle. But when I listened to the sacrifice of Caridin it seemed the better moral choice in the end.

[T1l]

I'm on my third playthough and each time I've played a Dwarf Noble; I just can't support Bhelen.



As Cuuniyevo said, what would seem right or wrong will depend on what background you've come from. Bhelen, to me, is a traitor and has no respect for tradition. The same with the Dwarf who wanted the Chantry, and the Smith Caste girl who wanted to work with the mages.

[Shanra]

Well, I came through on my City Elf, and Harrowmont seems like the better person, overall. Coming at it from the outside, the King chose him, other people did too, and he didn't try to blackmail and play tricks on people. Plus I kind of wanted to do the proving route.. lol.



When I found out what happened at the end, I was a bit sad, but how could I have known?



I have a dwarf noble I want to play through, I think she commended her brother for playing the game well. I think, even though what he did to her, she would still support him, since its supporting her family line. And I think she'll keep the anvil, unlike my first run on my elf. I destroyed it. I'd like to see how that turns out!