384 réponses à ce sujet

[Gibb_Shepard]

 At the moment i'm trying to play a stoic character whom has a cynical view of the world, yet does attempt to do as much good as he can. And it's pretty much impossible. My character is not an angry man, and is usually calm and collected even under the most stressful circumstances. But the only choices i have are to be a kissass or an aggressive ass. The character fits into neither of those categories, and he seems fairly basic from a roleplaying stand point. 

On top of this, when i do have to pick between condemning someone to death or asking if i can look for their long lost mother, the character's voice is COMPLETELY different. NO ONE's voice lowers several octaves when they are aggressive like Hawke's does, it gives a bipolar quality that i have not yet seen in a game. Between this bipolar voice change, lack of neutrality and horribly done paraphrases; it is ridiculously hard to roleplay in this game. 

But i guess it's my fault for attempting to make a character that isn't 1 dimensional. 

Believe it or not; adding a neutral option, entire sentences (No more paraphrasing, please? Look at DX: HR) and a voice that can express anger without going from Isabella to Fenris tonality wise, the game's roleplaying ability would be a lot more in-depth. Hell, ME has two of these already sorted out, a neutral option and VA's that can express different moods without sounding like they just smoked a pack of cigarettes. 

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 30 octobre 2011 - 02:30 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Oh, I don't know...I find that when I'm angry, my voice will sometimes drop very low. It's a sign of danger to come - that deep rumble before all hell breaks loose sort of thing. So it's not completely unrealistic for Hawke to adopt such a tone when being aggressive.

You could always mix up your response options. Sarcasm isn't so far from the realm of a character who is desensitized to things, including violence. While humor may not necessarily be correlated with stoicism, it certainly can be cynical.

[Morroian]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

But i guess it's my fault for attempting to make a character that isn't 1 dimensional. 

While the range of role playing isn't as wide as DAO its perfectly possible to role play a character in depth within the limitations of the system.  There's been enough feedback from people who have been able to do so.

[OdanUrr]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

NO ONE's voice lowers several octaves when they are aggressive like Hawke's does, 

"I'm Batman."B)

[FASherman]

 Seriously? 

I want to play a character that has some unresolved anger towards his father and is a flawed human being who wants to be better but has trouble tracking out of old behavior patterns. I want the game to allow to help explore these issues while becoming a more complete person who can connect emotionally with others.

Why doesn't Bioware give me this?

Way to overthink it, Nancy. Good Hawke, Funny Hawke, Mean Hawke - got it?

Modifié par FASherman, 30 octobre 2011 - 02:01 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Trying to role-play it made me constantly feel headache and annoyed. I couldn't make a character like Alistair who always insert stupid jokes a line or two in every conversations. I don't want to play sarcastic Hawke nor do I want a diplomatic Hawke. But every time I mixed subtle tones with at least one sarcastic tones, Hawke always sound ridiculous and annoyed me very much especially during the cinematic conversation where he suddenly talk and behave without my input. Just like an NPC. And Hawke's perspective is becoming ridiculous when the narration is more from either Varric's perspective or Cassandra's motive. Not from Hawke. Whoever wrote this story obviously never narrates the world from Hawke's own eyes. This made me wondering if Hawke was meant to be my character at all. It's feel like Santa Claus is telling a fairy tale to a bunch of kids and I was there just to listen. Never actually live as the character. Instead I was left scratching my head and forcing myself to go along with the story and the character with minimal effort to make my own.

I never finished the game if I tried to role-play it. 3 failed attempts and 6 successful playthroughs only because I didn't roleplay but just go along with everything. It's so frustrating since I like to create the story and character for myself through the limitation ( I'm aware of BioWare's story driven RPG limitation compare to sandbox,open world RPG and D&D RPG). DA 2's limitation however, is too much for me.

[Gibb_Shepard]

FASherman wrote...


Way to overthink it, Nancy. Good Hawke, Funny Hawke, Mean Hawke - got it?

HAHAHA, don't worry buddy, i got it!

This, right here, is exactly what i'm talking about. You actually summarised my entire post in that single sentence.

The limit this game has put on roleplaying is, well, extremely limiting; as described by this incredibly intelligent man.

[Zanallen]

How is this any different from any Bioware game ever? Responses always boil down to nice, angry and jokey. They might throw in a neutral comment as well. But that's it.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Paars wrote...

FASherman wrote...

 Seriously? 

I want to play a character that has some unresolved anger towards his father and is a flawed human being who wants to be better but has trouble tracking out of old behavior patterns. I want the game to allow to help explore these issues while becoming a more complete person who can connect emotionally with others.

Why doesn't Bioware give me this?

Way to overthink it, Nancy. Good Hawke, Funny Hawke, Mean Hawke - got it?

This. It's always been this way, too. Try playing a morally complex character in, say, KotOR. It's impossible due to the cartoonish villainy and extravagant benevolence of the dialogue options.

No, it hasn't. In Mass Effect it is very easy to roleplay complex characters, and even easier in DAO. 

@Zanellan: In BW's non voiced games, it wasn't an issue as any of the options could be said in any tone you interpret it as. In ME, there is always a neutral option.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 30 octobre 2011 - 02:36 .

[Zanallen]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

No, it hasn't. In Mass Effect it is very easy to roleplay complex characters, and even easier in DAO. 

@Zanellan: In BW's non voiced games, it wasn't an issue as any of the options could be said in any tone you interpret it as. In ME, there is always a neutral option.

Lies. There is always a tone intended, even with a silent protagonist. That is why that response is paired with the specific NPC dialogue. The writer has an implied tone to the line that the NPC reacts to.

[eroeru]

Zanallen wrote...

How is this any different from any Bioware game ever? Responses always boil down to nice, angry and jokey. They might throw in a neutral comment as well. But that's it.

It is vastly different, as many players have pointed out their frustration.

First off, I can imagine countless possibilities into the meaning of text-based responses. The benefit of Bioware's games (the ones until DA:O) is a loose direction without a certain tone, attitude, but rather with well written often five-six possibilities that give a direction, but do not define.

DA2 is defined and very movie-like. Exactly how I don't like a (hopefully) choice-based RPG (or any game). I can place myself in the shoes of Hawke as likely as I can with any movie-character. It doesn't feel like my character, it is more pre-defined (to a large and onto-frustration sufficient extent)...

[eroeru]

Zanallen wrote...

Lies. 

Why would he need to lie here? Do you not accept many other's different feel of games (relevant to the question: from what extent does a character feel as mine or as my creation... or if you even don't want that in a game whilst this thread is about just the opposite want).

[Gibb_Shepard]

Zanallen wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

No, it hasn't. In Mass Effect it is very easy to roleplay complex characters, and even easier in DAO. 

@Zanellan: In BW's non voiced games, it wasn't an issue as any of the options could be said in any tone you interpret it as. In ME, there is always a neutral option.

Lies. There is always a tone intended, even with a silent protagonist. That is why that response is paired with the specific NPC dialogue. The writer has an implied tone to the line that the NPC reacts to.

Doesn't matter how it's intended, in any RPG with a non-voiced PC it is up to the player how the dialogue is said.

With a voiced PC however, your character is at the mercy of the writers, but Mass Effect still managed to pull off the ability to roleplay a variety of characters.

[Zanallen]

eroeru wrote...

It is vastly different, as many players have pointed out their frustration.

First off, I can imagine countless possibilities into the meaning of text-based responses. The benefit of Bioware's games (the ones until DA:O) is a loose direction without a certain tone, attitude, but rather with well written often five-six possibilities that give a direction, but do not define.

DA2 is defined and very movie-like. Exactly how I don't like a (hopefully) choice-based RPG (or any game). I can place myself in the shoes of Hawke as likely as I can with any movie-character. It doesn't feel like my character, it is more pre-defined (to a large and onto-frustration sufficient extent)...

You might be able to imagine countless possibilities, but that doesn't mean they exist. The NPCs only respond to one possibility. That is the tone and intent established by the writer when he wrote the line and the NPC's response. The certain tone and attitude is there, it is just less apparent without a voiced protagonist. And no, you did not get five or six possiblities. You received three or four. The rest were investigate options. Same with DA2.

[Zanallen]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Doesn't matter how it's intended, in any RPG with a non-voiced PC it is up to the player how the dialogue is said.

With a voiced PC however, your character is at the mercy of the writers, but Mass Effect still managed to pull off the ability to roleplay a variety of characters.

The character is always at the mercy of the writers. You can't do anything that the writers didn't first plan for.

[eroeru]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Doesn't matter how it's intended, in any RPG with a non-voiced PC it is up to the player how the dialogue is said.

With a voiced PC however, your character is at the mercy of the writers, but Mass Effect still managed to pull off the ability to roleplay a variety of characters.

The interesting thing is with player's intentions that often people don't find it possible (or relevant) to imagine certain tones or possibilites. This is narrowed down by many vague criteria, like the style, appearance, story and situation of the main character. As much as I played Mass Effect, I didn't even want to make a military-man psychotic or anything. So that's messing with player's intentions, and in a good way.

Modifié par eroeru, 30 octobre 2011 - 04:21 .

[RagingCyclone]

Zanallen wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

No, it hasn't. In Mass Effect it is very easy to roleplay complex characters, and even easier in DAO. 

@Zanellan: In BW's non voiced games, it wasn't an issue as any of the options could be said in any tone you interpret it as. In ME, there is always a neutral option.

Lies. There is always a tone intended, even with a silent protagonist. That is why that response is paired with the specific NPC dialogue. The writer has an implied tone to the line that the NPC reacts to.

The tone is intended, but not expressed by the pc. That is what I think the OP is saying. As much as you can argue the writer's intent...with a silent protagonist you do not have a voice specifically making that intent audible thus it is left to the player to use his/her imagination to place it.

A lot also comes down to the VA's acting. I was on another chat last night talking with a group about the same issue. Even there we differed on the effectiveness of the VA's for m! Hawke and f!Hawke as to which did a better job during All that Remains. Those differeing opinions are also reflective on the effectiveness of one player as opposed to anothers interpretations of the VA and the intent of the writer.

This last to everyone--So in short telling someone they missed the intent of a writer while they play, or to tell someone that roleplaying a voiced PC is easy to me is tantamount to telling someone they play a game wrong. Everyone has different ways of playing...even those that agree on the issue at hand. We just all need to accept that fact.

Modifié par RagingCyclone, 30 octobre 2011 - 02:52 .

[eroeru]

Zanallen wrote...

You might be able to imagine countless possibilities, but that doesn't mean they exist. The NPCs only respond to one possibility. That is the tone and intent established by the writer when he wrote the line and the NPC's response. The certain tone and attitude is there, it is just less apparent without a voiced protagonist. And no, you did not get five or six possiblities. You received three or four. The rest were investigate options. Same with DA2.

Don't you think you're over-simplifying things? The thing about games and make-belief IS that the imagined scenario is the most real one that's possible, nothing wrong with it. Do you claim that written text has exactly the same level of defined meaning to it as spoken text? (and I'm ignoring the fact it wasn't clear what my character would say in 2 as well - for now).

[Gibb_Shepard]

Zanallen wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Doesn't matter how it's intended, in any RPG with a non-voiced PC it is up to the player how the dialogue is said.

With a voiced PC however, your character is at the mercy of the writers, but Mass Effect still managed to pull off the ability to roleplay a variety of characters.

The character is always at the mercy of the writers. You can't do anything that the writers didn't first plan for.

What? Sure you can't side with the archdemon, but thats about where it ends when creating a character with a non-voiced PC. Absolutely everything about the PC is decided by the player.

Anyway, this isn't supposed to be a voice vs non-voice thread. I'm just dogging out DA2's roleplaying abilities. I can roleplay SO MANY different Geralts in TW2, and SO MANY different shepard in ME, but in DA2, just as our good friend  mentioned before, is limited to "Mean, Good and funny".

[eroeru]

Zanallen wrote...

The character is always at the mercy of the writers. You can't do anything that the writers didn't first plan for.

Are you claiming that creativity and imagination is in vain as far as gaming goes? Well, that's another personal preference. Many, including myself, find practically the only meaning of games in creativity and imagination - or the awe at the imagination of the creators (the creation part is more and the second point relatively less so with previous Bioware games, you must hand us at least that...).
EDIT: though of course allowing player's creativity to flourish in a game is ultimately a deed of the creator, the creator does NOT interpret the game for you - nor is the interpretation pre-defined. We were discussing the game from the view-point of the interpreting player, not the maker.
And a game-world is certainly less easily and not as well interpreted if given less - and very strict at that - info (=less choices) - which you must confess is true for DA2 in relation to BG until DA:O.

*+2 edited for lousy grammar and clarity*

Modifié par eroeru, 30 octobre 2011 - 03:19 .

[BBK4114]

FASherman wrote...

 Seriously? 

*snip*

Way to overthink it, Nancy. Good Hawke, Funny Hawke, Mean Hawke - got it?

LOL!  If we have one dimensional companions why should Hawke be any different?    

[Ylvena]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Trying to role-play it made me constantly feel headache and annoyed. I couldn't make a character like Alistair who always insert stupid jokes a line or two in every conversations. I don't want to play sarcastic Hawke nor do I want a diplomatic Hawke. But every time I mixed subtle tones with at least one sarcastic tones, Hawke always sound ridiculous and annoyed me very much especially during the cinematic conversation where he suddenly talk and behave without my input. Just like an NPC. And Hawke's perspective is becoming ridiculous when the narration is more from either Varric's perspective or Cassandra's motive. Not from Hawke. Whoever wrote this story obviously never narrates the world from Hawke's own eyes. This made me wondering if Hawke was meant to be my character at all. It's feel like Santa Claus is telling a fairy tale to a bunch of kids and I was there just to listen. Never actually live as the character. Instead I was left scratching my head and forcing myself to go along with the story and the character with minimal effort to make my own.

I never finished the game if I tried to role-play it. 3 failed attempts and 6 successful playthroughs only because I didn't roleplay but just go along with everything. It's so frustrating since I like to create the story and character for myself through the limitation ( I'm aware of BioWare's story driven RPG limitation compare to sandbox,open world RPG and D&D RPG). DA 2's limitation however, is too much for me.

This , to many limitations. And Hawk did not feel like my character.

All games have limitations, but in DA2 i felt pushed and dragged through most of the game, and most of the sidequests did not take away the feeling of this for me. If ykwim.

I need to feel a sence of immersion, but unfortunatly for me i didn't. Ah well, there are other games out there.

[seraphymon]

Zanallen wrote...

eroeru wrote...

It is vastly different, as many players have pointed out their frustration.

First off, I can imagine countless possibilities into the meaning of text-based responses. The benefit of Bioware's games (the ones until DA:O) is a loose direction without a certain tone, attitude, but rather with well written often five-six possibilities that give a direction, but do not define.

DA2 is defined and very movie-like. Exactly how I don't like a (hopefully) choice-based RPG (or any game). I can place myself in the shoes of Hawke as likely as I can with any movie-character. It doesn't feel like my character, it is more pre-defined (to a large and onto-frustration sufficient extent)...

You might be able to imagine countless possibilities, but that doesn't mean they exist. The NPCs only respond to one possibility. That is the tone and intent established by the writer when he wrote the line and the NPC's response. The certain tone and attitude is there, it is just less apparent without a voiced protagonist. And no, you did not get five or six possiblities. You received three or four. The rest were investigate options. Same with DA2.

They do exist, that is what using your own imagination in it. The NPCs react can sometimes give off the impression of certain tone, but always. NPCs react in their own ways same with DA2, as i would pick a certain tone, but yet the reaction was certainly different.

Most of the time we recieved 3-4, but sometimes we had up to 6, and not ones with investigate options, but ones that actually progressed the conversation forward.

[Persephone]

BBK4114 wrote...

FASherman wrote...

 Seriously? 

*snip*

Way to overthink it, Nancy. Good Hawke, Funny Hawke, Mean Hawke - got it?

LOL!  If we have one dimensional companions why should Hawke be any different?    

What companions did YOU get? Mine were trillion dimensional., thank you.