384 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

Zanallen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

LoL.  Whatever.

So you are telling me that the warden defeating a blight in 1/10 the time it usually takes with only the previously devastated armies of Ferelden at his back is purely because of his skill and strategic genius? That's ridiculous. He's a Chosen One, same as in any JRPG. The young man who defied the odds to do what no one has ever done before in the history of forever. There is absolutely no reason in-game to think that your plucky band of heroes would accomplish jack squat that they set out to do.

Whatever.  I'm not arguing this "chosen one" nonsense, you've made your mind up that it's a fault in the game and that's that.

Aaaand... if you look at the length of the blights.... they are dramatically decreasing in length:
Dumat: ~200yrs
Zazikel: ~90yrs
Toth: only 15yrs
Andoral: ~10yrs
Urthemiel: ~2yrs

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 03 novembre 2011 - 05:43 .

[Zanallen]

Aaleel wrote...

But like accomplishments that have plot armor.  The failures had plot armor.  They were going to happen regardless.

It's not like someone came and asked for your help catching a serial killer and you blew them off or said that you didn't have time, and then your mother got taken.  That's a failing because you didn't act in time.

It's not like you took left your sibling behind and something happened because you didn't bring them with you.  Or vice versa you didn't leave them at home so they got blighted. That's a failing based on a decision you made.

But to just have stuff happen regardless in an effort to add artficial darkness or sadness to the game is no better IMHO. 

I didn't say the system was perfect. I just like having the PC lose sometimes, regardless of what he does. I find it refreshing and enjoyable.

As for the bolded, that is exactly what happened. You choose to take them, and something happens. You take them and someone else and something else can happen. You don't take your sibling and something else happens. Your decision on who you take with you to the Deep Roads directly effects what happens to your remaining sibling.

[Aaleel]

Zanallen wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

But like accomplishments that have plot armor.  The failures had plot armor.  They were going to happen regardless.

It's not like someone came and asked for your help catching a serial killer and you blew them off or said that you didn't have time, and then your mother got taken.  That's a failing because you didn't act in time.

It's not like you took left your sibling behind and something happened because you didn't bring them with you.  Or vice versa you didn't leave them at home so they got blighted. That's a failing based on a decision you made.

But to just have stuff happen regardless in an effort to add artficial darkness or sadness to the game is no better IMHO. 

I didn't say the system was perfect. I just like having the PC lose sometimes, regardless of what he does. I find it refreshing and enjoyable.

As for the bolded, that is exactly what happened. You choose to take them, and something happens. You take them and someone else and something else can happen. You don't take your sibling and something else happens. Your decision on who you take with you to the Deep Roads directly effects what happens to your remaining sibling.

No I meant.  You take them and somehting happens, but if you didn't they're fine.

OR Vice Versa

If you take them they're fine, but if you leave them something happens.

Not something happens regardless.

[Zanallen]

FaeQueenCory wrote...

OH OH OH! I know that one! I know that one!

The reason why Dumat's blight lasted for 200ish years is because there was no such things as the Grey Wardens at that time!
So they probably did indeed kill poor old Dumat many times... but He just body hopped.... so he got better each time he "died".

This is correct.

Aaaand... if you look at the length of the blights.... they are dramatically decreasing in length:
Dumat: ~200yrs
Zazikel: ~90yrs
Toth: only 15yrs
Andoral: ~10yrs
Urthemiel: ~2yrs

Basically this shows that the Wardens are getting better at what they do, by being able to cut down on the time Archdemons are running amok.... and also, they might have gotten the locations of all the Old Gods after Zazikel... that would explain why they could be so quick to mobilize and defeat the Archdemons in such a shorter amount of time. (~90>>>~10)

Correction. The fifth Blight lasted one year. One. It started in Dragon 9:30 and ended with the Battle of Denerim in Dragon 9:30. So, we've gone from Andoral taking a decade to defeat after ravaging Antiva and laying seige to the capital of the Anderfels. His defeat required the combined forces of Orlais, the Anderfels and the Free Marches under the command of the Wardens. Urthemiel is defeated in under a year with just the forces of Ferelden, who have been severly weakened due to the losses at Ostagar and fighting between elves/werewolves, Bhelen/Harrowmont, mages/abominations and Redcliffe/armies of the undead. We also have three Grey Wardens, one freshly raised, one with only six months or so of training and one senior warden. That is quite the leap from the massive combined armies and ten years to an ill prepared, weakened force in one year.

The reason for Urthemiel being taken out so quickly is two-fold:
1) Grey Wardens know what they are doing by now. The talent of the Wardens grows with each Blight, hence why the times decrease so dramatically.
2) Urthemiel is the "god of beauty, in ancient times Urthemiel was worshipped by musicians, artists, and poets." You don't get to be all big and powerful... when you are a god of beauty.... music.... art... poetry.... It's a VERY safe assumption that Urthemiel is the prettiest of all the Old Gods.... but he is sure as hell isn't ANYWHERE near as powerful as any of the others...

Your first point would be fine if it wasn't for the fact that the two wardens in your party are pretty much untrained. The only senior warden you get spends most of the game in jail and when you do free him he tells you how to defeat the Archdemon before promptly getting himself killed. So, how does the accumulated talent of the grey wardens play into this?

As for your second point, yes, Urthemiel is the god of beauty. How does that make him the weakest of the old gods? You are basing this on what now? Oh, yes...Pure conjecture.

So, when you actually read the codex about Urthemiel... it really makes the whole "I just killed the Archdemon!" pride... really hollow.... because you actually just killed the weakest one.
(Also the fact that the Architect handpicked Him over the other two.... just is one more nail in the coffin of how weak Urthemiel is...)

So really... the Warden really had it easy when he fought Urthemiel. That's why s/he was able to do it so quickly with such a small force.

Once again, no. Defeating the fifth blight with the resources at hand is still ridiculous. And there is still no in-game reason to think it would be at all possible. Everything points to needing years and the combined efforts of several countries.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Verly wrote...

I do not role-play myself as a character..ever...to me that is not what role-playing is. I am never my character. I am always the person playing the game. the way DA2 runs is only a problem if the person is dead set into making themselves in the game.. role-playing how they would act in any given situation...to me that limits replayability. if that is what role-playing is to someone then yes, DA2 is not for them. but putting yourself into the character is not the only definition of role play.

I don't self-insert, either.  My complaint is that you cannot roleplay ANY character in DA2 unless the writers specifically wrote for it.

That's the problem.

DAO allowed a much wider variety of PC designs (personality-wise) than DA2 does.

[Killjoy Cutter]

The events of DA:O don't make the Warden PC some kind of "chosen one".  It's simply a matter of the Fifth Blight being caught in its infant stage.   

This whole "chosen one" argument is just another load of crap that someone has latched onto in order to slam the game over and over.  Posting "Once again" and repeating yourself ad nauseum won't make your little complaint any more valid. 

Beyond that, I don't care, whatever, later. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 03 novembre 2011 - 06:38 .

[Zanallen]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The events of DA:O don't make the Warden PC some kind of "chosen one".  It's simply a matter of the Fifth Blight being caught in its infant stage.   

This whole "chosen one" argument is just another load of crap that someone has latched onto in order to slam the game over and over.  Posting "Once again" and repeating yourself ad nauseum won't make your little complaint any more valid. 

Beyond that, I don't care, whatever, later. 

Let's examine it, shall we?

The warden is first chosen by Duncan. This allows him to survive the events of his origin and draws him into his destiny as a Grey Warden. He is the only member of his Joining to survive. He is then chosen again by Flemeth and saved from certain death in the Tower of Ishal. Because Alistair is evidently a comple idiot, all the decisions fall to the newer of the two Wardens. Basically, even highly trained warriors and mages defer to his lead. During his journey, he outwits assassins and even gets former enemies to join his cause. He is instrumental in the crowning of two different kings and tracks down several mystical objects thought to be lost. This all culminates in defeating a Blight in record time with a half-assed army and pretty much no training in being a warden. That sounds pretty much like your Chosen One stereotypical RPG hero. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but it doesn't change the fact that you have absolutely no reason in game to think you have a chance of stopping the Blight without aid from the other wardens or the surrounding countries.

[seraphymon]

Zanallen wrote...

FaeQueenCory wrote...

OH OH OH! I know that one! I know that one!

The reason why Dumat's blight lasted for 200ish years is because there was no such things as the Grey Wardens at that time!
So they probably did indeed kill poor old Dumat many times... but He just body hopped.... so he got better each time he "died".

This is correct.

Aaaand... if you look at the length of the blights.... they are dramatically decreasing in length:
Dumat: ~200yrs
Zazikel: ~90yrs
Toth: only 15yrs
Andoral: ~10yrs
Urthemiel: ~2yrs

Basically this shows that the Wardens are getting better at what they do, by being able to cut down on the time Archdemons are running amok.... and also, they might have gotten the locations of all the Old Gods after Zazikel... that would explain why they could be so quick to mobilize and defeat the Archdemons in such a shorter amount of time. (~90>>>~10)

Correction. The fifth Blight lasted one year. One. It started in Dragon 9:30 and ended with the Battle of Denerim in Dragon 9:30. So, we've gone from Andoral taking a decade to defeat after ravaging Antiva and laying seige to the capital of the Anderfels. His defeat required the combined forces of Orlais, the Anderfels and the Free Marches under the command of the Wardens. Urthemiel is defeated in under a year with just the forces of Ferelden, who have been severly weakened due to the losses at Ostagar and fighting between elves/werewolves, Bhelen/Harrowmont, mages/abominations and Redcliffe/armies of the undead. We also have three Grey Wardens, one freshly raised, one with only six months or so of training and one senior warden. That is quite the leap from the massive combined armies and ten years to an ill prepared, weakened force in one year.

The reason for Urthemiel being taken out so quickly is two-fold:
1) Grey Wardens know what they are doing by now. The talent of the Wardens grows with each Blight, hence why the times decrease so dramatically.
2) Urthemiel is the "god of beauty, in ancient times Urthemiel was worshipped by musicians, artists, and poets." You don't get to be all big and powerful... when you are a god of beauty.... music.... art... poetry.... It's a VERY safe assumption that Urthemiel is the prettiest of all the Old Gods.... but he is sure as hell isn't ANYWHERE near as powerful as any of the others...

Your first point would be fine if it wasn't for the fact that the two wardens in your party are pretty much untrained. The only senior warden you get spends most of the game in jail and when you do free him he tells you how to defeat the Archdemon before promptly getting himself killed. So, how does the accumulated talent of the grey wardens play into this?

As for your second point, yes, Urthemiel is the god of beauty. How does that make him the weakest of the old gods? You are basing this on what now? Oh, yes...Pure conjecture.

So, when you actually read the codex about Urthemiel... it really makes the whole "I just killed the Archdemon!" pride... really hollow.... because you actually just killed the weakest one.
(Also the fact that the Architect handpicked Him over the other two.... just is one more nail in the coffin of how weak Urthemiel is...)

So really... the Warden really had it easy when he fought Urthemiel. That's why s/he was able to do it so quickly with such a small force.

Once again, no. Defeating the fifth blight with the resources at hand is still ridiculous. And there is still no in-game reason to think it would be at all possible. Everything points to needing years and the combined efforts of several countries.

there is in game reasons to think this was possible, you just refuse to accept it. First and foremost knowing how blights work means it can be fought better the next time. Another is the fact that while this was a blight the number of darkspawn wasnt as high as previous ones. Essentially they stopped it before itr truly became a blight. I dont know if this archdemon was the weakest, but i would say based on things Dumat was the strongest.  Now it comes down to the way the battle of Denerim progressed. As people mentioned Riordan crippled its wings, allowing it to be vunerable. I think that was the key thing, right there.

Your views however is pretty close to what Laidlaw said the other lands and country might see this as. The ramifications of beating the blight  in less than a year.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Zanallen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The events of DA:O don't make the Warden PC some kind of "chosen one".  It's simply a matter of the Fifth Blight being caught in its infant stage.   

This whole "chosen one" argument is just another load of crap that someone has latched onto in order to slam the game over and over.  Posting "Once again" and repeating yourself ad nauseum won't make your little complaint any more valid. 

Beyond that, I don't care, whatever, later. 

Let's examine it, shall we?

The warden is first chosen by Duncan. This allows him to survive the events of his origin and draws him into his destiny as a Grey Warden. He is the only member of his Joining to survive. He is then chosen again by Flemeth and saved from certain death in the Tower of Ishal. Because Alistair is evidently a comple idiot, all the decisions fall to the newer of the two Wardens. Basically, even highly trained warriors and mages defer to his lead. During his journey, he outwits assassins and even gets former enemies to join his cause. He is instrumental in the crowning of two different kings and tracks down several mystical objects thought to be lost. This all culminates in defeating a Blight in record time with a half-assed army and pretty much no training in being a warden. That sounds pretty much like your Chosen One stereotypical RPG hero. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but it doesn't change the fact that you have absolutely no reason in game to think you have a chance of stopping the Blight without aid from the other wardens or the surrounding countries.

See above -- don't care.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 03 novembre 2011 - 07:12 .

[Il Divo]

http://tvtropes.org/...ouchedByVorlons

Maybe this'll help the chosen one debate, just a tad?

[maxernst]

Zanallen wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

- So the commoner Hawke who just happens to catch the eye of Flemith.
- Just happens to be the one makes this huge name for him/herself throughout the Kirkwall underworld
- Just happens to catch the eye of Varric and be hand chosen to come on the most sought after expedition in the city.
- Takes a handful of people and defeat dragons, and makes their way alone through parts of the deed roads never before seen.  Finally defeating the ancient rock wraith and taking enough loot to be a millionaire.
- Then even though Hawke has no knowledge of the Qunari or their culture, is pretty much handpicked to be the liason/ambassodor to the Arishok.
- City guard taken over, but Hawke fight his/her way to the Arishok and defeats him in one on one combat, and become the hero of the city.
- and so on and so on....

You can do this with any game.  But don't act like one is any more believable than the other.  If anyone was the chosen one from the start it was Hawke.

I never said one was more believable than the other. I said I find Hawke refreshing because he is unable to achieve everything he sets out to do. There is absolutely no way for him to really "win". It is an interesting take on the "hero" character and I enjoyed it. YMMV, of course.

But does achieve pretty much everything he sets out to do:  he makes enough money to go to the Deep Roads, becomes rich, and gets his family estate back.  And that's all he can really be said to make a serious attempt at achieving.  Everything else he does is just stuff other people want him to do.

[Il Divo]

maxernst wrote...

But does achieve pretty much everything he sets out to do:  he makes enough money to go to the Deep Roads, becomes rich, and gets his family estate back.  And that's all he can really be said to make a serious attempt at achieving.  Everything else he does is just stuff other people want him to do.

Which is somewhat of the problem. Origins requires you to buy into one large premise: stop the Blight, admittedly with some side issues, like the inability to head for Orlais. DA2's problem is, outside of Hawke's family, you're given a multitude of premises which the game requires your PC to buy into. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Il Divo wrote...

maxernst wrote...

But does achieve pretty much everything he sets out to do:  he makes enough money to go to the Deep Roads, becomes rich, and gets his family estate back.  And that's all he can really be said to make a serious attempt at achieving.  Everything else he does is just stuff other people want him to do.

Which is somewhat of the problem. Origins requires you to buy into one large premise: stop the Blight, admittedly with some side issues, like the inability to head for Orlais. DA2's problem is, outside of Hawke's family, you're given a multitude of premises which the game requires your PC to buy into. 

And the number of patently obvious paths that you, as the player, are simply not allowed to take.  And the number of important events that are locked in place by cutscenes.

[FaeQueenCory]

seraphymon wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Correction. The fifth Blight lasted one year. One. It started in Dragon 9:30 and ended with the Battle of Denerim in Dragon 9:30. So, we've gone from Andoral taking a decade to defeat after ravaging Antiva and laying seige to the capital of the Anderfels. His defeat required the combined forces of Orlais, the Anderfels and the Free Marches under the command of the Wardens. Urthemiel is defeated in under a year with just the forces of Ferelden, who have been severly weakened due to the losses at Ostagar and fighting between elves/werewolves, Bhelen/Harrowmont, mages/abominations and Redcliffe/armies of the undead. We also have three Grey Wardens, one freshly raised, one with only six months or so of training and one senior warden. That is quite the leap from the massive combined armies and ten years to an ill prepared, weakened force in one year.

Your first point would be fine if it wasn't for the fact that the two wardens in your party are pretty much untrained. The only senior warden you get spends most of the game in jail and when you do free him he tells you how to defeat the Archdemon before promptly getting himself killed. So, how does the accumulated talent of the grey wardens play into this?

As for your second point, yes, Urthemiel is the god of beauty. How does that make him the weakest of the old gods? You are basing this on what now? Oh, yes...Pure conjecture.

Once again, no. Defeating the fifth blight with the resources at hand is still ridiculous. And there is still no in-game reason to think it would be at all possible. Everything points to needing years and the combined efforts of several countries.

there is in game reasons to think this was possible, you just refuse to accept it. First and foremost knowing how blights work means it can be fought better the next time. Another is the fact that while this was a blight the number of darkspawn wasnt as high as previous ones. Essentially they stopped it before itr truly became a blight. I dont know if this archdemon was the weakest, but i would say based on things Dumat was the strongest.  Now it comes down to the way the battle of Denerim progressed. As people mentioned Riordan crippled its wings, allowing it to be vunerable. I think that was the key thing, right there.

Your views however is pretty close to what Laidlaw said the other lands and country might see this as. The ramifications of beating the blight  in less than a year.

What seraphymon said about how "knowing is half the battle" as the saying goes......
And it was stated in codexes that Dumat IS the strongest of the Old Gods.

And, now I know this is asking a LOT from the internet... but let's look at it with logic and deductive reasoning, shall we?

pt1) Urthemiel was bested in only about 1yr-2yrs. (people in DA2 were arguing about how it couldn't be a blight because it only took TWO years. They said two. So I did. DA2 is newer so it's revisionistic telling of things is going to be the canon.)
pt2) The Wardens KNOW EXACTLY where each Old God is. If you don't believe me, go read The Calling.
pt3) The Architect does too.
pt4) The Architect earnestly wants to acheive a "world peace" between the Darkspawn and everyone else.
pt5) The Architect doesn't think with emotions like humans do, he only uses logic and scientific thinking.
         Extrapolation: Being a scientist, specifically a chemist, I know how when you are testing a first experiment, you make sure that you keep everything as small as can be. So there isn't any reason to think the Architect just chose Urthemiel randomly. He knew what he was doing, and he knew that it could have caused a Blight. So, as a safeguard, he chose Urthemiel.
pt5) Urthemiel is a god of music and pretty things.
         Extrapolation: Having read almost every single religious text in the world, gods of pretty things are ALWAYS on the bottom of the power scale. That's just how it is. And I'm pretty sure it has to do with the fact that prettiness isn't a very good magical weapon. I DARE you to find a god or goddess of beauty (that isn't also a goddess of war, then she'd be powerful due to her war aspects, not the pretty) that is powerful in her pantheon. There are none.

Deduction:
     With above points taken as factual (which they are, that, at least, can NOT be argued legitimately with), a conclusion that Urthemiel is weaker the other Old Gods seems evident. Especially given the fact that He was killed so quickly into the infancy of His Blight.
     Further, assuming my extrapolations are sound, which they should be, given my experience; they reinforce my deduction.

I'm sorry for assuming you could look at all the facts throughout the entirety of the series, and could reason well enough to see how my conjectured statement follows the facts without me having to walk you through it, step by step, word by word... And just because something is conjecture, doesn't make it wrong... at least so long as logic doesn't disprove it. And the "logos" you provided to counteract my conjecture has been "I don't believe it" and "it only took one year".... which, of the two, the only fact you provided is questionable due to the data in DA2.

You don't have to believe in something in order for it to be real, or logical, or even correct. People disbelieve in the process of evolution. People disbelieve in tectonic movement. People disbelieve in a great deal of things that are logically sound. But where they err is when they take that disbelief one step further and refute the entirety of the cojecture as "wrong" or "invalid".

The answer isn't that the fifth Blight was over so quickly because Urthemiel is the weakest Old God. The answer is that Urthemiel is the weakest Old God because the fifth Blight was over so quickly. These two statements are entirely different.

And as to the "accumulated talent of the grey wardens"... The mind and strategy win wars. Not physical skill or talent. The Wardens know what they are doing now. They know the end goal. In fact, the only real heroic thing the Warden PC ever has to do is take up the mantle of the martyr and fight their way to the resting spot of Urthemiel... And even then... it doesn't have to be heroic! (Alistair wanting it/wanting to off Alistair/wanting to off Logain/wanting to help Logain/etc)
And, in all honesty, the only reasons for the Wardens to exist is to be there to deal that final blow so that they explode with the Archdemon's soul. All it takes is everyone else wearing the Old God down and a single Warden to poke the god.


.... It seems I ranted a bit....
I need to go watch some My Little Pony now...

[addiction21]

Il Divo wrote...

http://tvtropes.org/...ouchedByVorlons

Maybe this'll help the chosen one debate, just a tad?

Don't worry it won't.

[Il Divo]

addiction21 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

http://tvtropes.org/...ouchedByVorlons

Maybe this'll help the chosen one debate, just a tad?

Don't worry it won't.

You successfully called me out on that one.

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 novembre 2011 - 08:17 .

[Il Divo]

FaeQueenCory wrote...


And, now I know this is asking a LOT from the internet... but let's look at it with logic and deductive reasoning, shall we?

pt1) Urthemiel was bested in only about 1yr-2yrs. (people in DA2 were arguing about how it couldn't be a blight because it only took TWO years. They said two. So I did. DA2 is newer so it's revisionistic telling of things is going to be the canon.)
pt2) The Wardens KNOW EXACTLY where each Old God is. If you don't believe me, go read The Calling.
pt3) The Architect does too.
pt4) The Architect earnestly wants to acheive a "world peace" between the Darkspawn and everyone else.
pt5) The Architect doesn't think with emotions like humans do, he only uses logic and scientific thinking.
         Extrapolation: Being a scientist, specifically a chemist, I know how when you are testing a first experiment, you make sure that you keep everything as small as can be. So there isn't any reason to think the Architect just chose Urthemiel randomly. He knew what he was doing, and he knew that it could have caused a Blight. So, as a safeguard, he chose Urthemiel.
pt5) Urthemiel is a god of music and pretty things.
         Extrapolation: Having read almost every single religious text in the world, gods of pretty things are ALWAYS on the bottom of the power scale. That's just how it is. And I'm pretty sure it has to do with the fact that prettiness isn't a very good magical weapon. I DARE you to find a god or goddess of beauty (that isn't also a goddess of war, then she'd be powerful due to her war aspects, not the pretty) that is powerful in her pantheon. There are none.

Well, I'm going to have to dispute your logic, because you're committing a fairly critical error in your reasoning with respect to the religious texts. Writing is not empirically based with respect to how an author must create their world. "Dumat, God of Music and pretty things, is the weakest of the Old Gods" because in other forms of fiction, "the pretty Gods are at the bottom" fits the bill of a fallacy, as there is no rule which states that pretty Gods must always be at the bottom.  

If we were discussing gravity, you might have had a point, as that is something determined empirically using the external world. Writing doesn't function in this manner however, since it's all based in the creative thinking. If Dumat is the weakest of the Old Gods, it's not because other legends and myths have done it in this fashion, since there rarely (if ever) is an inherent logic in how they conceive of the world. Give me five minutes and I could write you a mythos where the "God of Beauty" is the most powerful.  

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 novembre 2011 - 08:48 .

[TheElderWand]

Zanallen wrote...

TheElderWand wrote...

We play games to get away from the reality of life! It's a fantasy game, why does it have to be realistic?

I don't think there's any satisfaction with the PC failing all the time, whilst in Origins, i felt VERY satisfied by the end of it! Dragon Age 2 doesn't take its combat seriously(have you seen how high they bloody jump?) yet it's suddenly "good" game making for our hero to fail all the time? what's the fun in that? especially in Dragon Age 2 which takes itself less seriously than Origins! 

The only thing that is ridiculous here is that you're defending DA2 by saying it is more realistic in the story, even though it's a fantasy and not real life, and that Origins failed in this aspect.

I'm not defending DA2 nor saying its more realistic. All I said was that I find Hawke to be a refreshing change of pace. I play video games to experience an enjoyable story. What I find enjoyable is entirely subjective. You might not like it and that's fine. I don't actually care what you like. Stories don't have to be happy to be enjoyable. The PCs in the vast majority of the games out there are super heroes capable of accomplishing everything and achieving the ultimate good ending where everyone who can be saved is saved. I thought it was nice to have a PC who ultimately fails.

Also, what does the combat have to do with this discussion? Was DA2's combat more over the top than DAO's? Sure. No one can deny that. It was very stylized. Not that the combat in Origins was any less ridiculous. It was just ridiculous in different ways.

It's a refreshing change if done right, I guess. Da2, on the other hand, was rushed and the entire story felt like it was incomplete and disjointed. If you enjoyed Da2's story, that's fine, just answer me one question... did we REALLY need a Da2 game? couldn't we just have gone straight to Da3 and have what happened in da2 as the intro cutscene? There was hardly any choice in Da2 anyway... Da2 just wasn't done to its full potential in any area and if you like that, I guess that's fine.

Origin's combat was better than Da2's because it was more tactical though, and FELT more realistic.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

maxernst wrote...

But does achieve pretty much everything he sets out to do:  he makes enough money to go to the Deep Roads, becomes rich, and gets his family estate back.  And that's all he can really be said to make a serious attempt at achieving.  Everything else he does is just stuff other people want him to do.

Which is somewhat of the problem. Origins requires you to buy into one large premise: stop the Blight, admittedly with some side issues, like the inability to head for Orlais. DA2's problem is, outside of Hawke's family, you're given a multitude of premises which the game requires your PC to buy into. 

And the number of patently obvious paths that you, as the player, are simply not allowed to take.  And the number of important events that are locked in place by cutscenes.

One of my more common complaints about CRPGs is when the game makes an option obvious, and then doesn't permit you to attempt it.

The first example that springs to mind is the beginning of NWN2, where you're told by everyone that there are two ways to get to Neverwinter - the High Road, or by sea.  And then you leave town and find exactly one path, and it leads to a port where you can find a ship.  The High Road doesn't exist.

DA2 does this repeatedly throughout the game.

[Zanallen]

TheElderWand wrote...

It's a refreshing change if done right, I guess. Da2, on the other hand, was rushed and the entire story felt like it was incomplete and disjointed. If you enjoyed Da2's story, that's fine, just answer me one question... did we REALLY need a Da2 game? couldn't we just have gone straight to Da3 and have what happened in da2 as the intro cutscene? There was hardly any choice in Da2 anyway... Da2 just wasn't done to its full potential in any area and if you like that, I guess that's fine.

Origin's combat was better than Da2's because it was more tactical though, and FELT more realistic.

Really? You really think the fans would go for that? For Bioware to just preface the game with "Around seven years after the end of the fifth blight, a lone apostate blew up the chantry in Kirkwall, killing the Revered Mother and prompting the Knight Commander to respond by calling for a Right of Annulment. The mages in the Kirkwall circle retaliated, sparking a Thedas wide rebellion. Now, the mages and templars are locked in an all out war that spans the length of the continent."

Hell, if that will fly, why set the next game in Qunari occupied Tevinter? We'll have a opening cinematic that explains how the Qunari sailed forth from Par Vollen, crushing all resistence and cut out the tongues of the Tevinter magisters. That's fine, right?

Or even better, we'll skip forward a century or two and base the next game around the seventh blight. Don't worry, we'll explain the history of the sixth blight in the marketing campaign leading up to the games release. That way we can give everyone flint lock pistols and have your warden pc battling the darkspawn in epic high seas adventures. 'Cause as we all know from the events surrounding the sixth blight, the darkspawn learned how to build battleships out of the taint.

[tmp7704]

Zanallen wrote...

Really? You really think the fans would go for that? For Bioware to just preface the game with "Around seven years after the end of the fifth blight, a lone apostate blew up the chantry in Kirkwall, killing the Revered Mother and prompting the Knight Commander to respond by calling for a Right of Annulment. The mages in the Kirkwall circle retaliated, sparking a Thedas wide rebellion. Now, the mages and templars are locked in an all out war that spans the length of the continent."

It's exactly how the first game begins -- with the big conflict being set up from the get-go, through the introductory cinematics. I don't remember complaints about it.

Heck, large parts of the DA2 storyline also happen like that, in the animated scenes during the time jumps. You get told how "Then, the qunari have arrived and the trouble with Circle of Magi began" as soon as you're done with getting into the city. And you can only accept that these events did happen, and set up/shaped the plot for your game. Were there complaints about it? Can't remember these, either.

And yes, personally i thought if the devs simply "wanted to kick down the sandcastle" as they said the purpose of DA2 was, they could've easily just skipped the whole thing and used such introduction instead.

Modifié par tmp7704, 04 novembre 2011 - 02:33 .

[Zanallen]

tmp7704 wrote...

It's exactly how the first game begins -- with the big conflict being set up from the get-go, through the introductory cinematics. I don't remember complaints about it.

Heck, large parts of the DA2 storyline also happen like that, in the animated scenes during the time jumps. You get told how "Then, the qunari have arrived and the trouble with Circle of Magi began" as soon as you're done with getting into the city. And you can only accept that these events did happen, and set up/shaped the plot for your game. Were there complaints about it? Can't remember these, either.

And yes, personally i thought if the devs simply "wanted to kick down the sandcastle" as they said the purpose of DA2 was, they could've easily just skipped the whole thing and used such introduction instead.

It works fine in the first game because we had nothing to compare it to. That was the setting. It works fine in the second game because, once again, it is the setting. This is Kirkwall. There is a small Qunari compound located within it. However, after the first game we have established that mages are a feared minority that is relegated to living under constant supervision by the templars. If we jumped from that to a continent spanning mage versus templar conflict and learned about it through a prologue slide, people would be pissed.

[Joy Divison]

Zanallen wrote...

...If we jumped from that to a continent spanning mage versus templar conflict and learned about it through a prologue slide, people would be pissed.

They're not exactly thrilled right now you know...

[Gibb_Shepard]

Zanallen wrote...

TheElderWand wrote...

It's a refreshing change if done right, I guess. Da2, on the other hand, was rushed and the entire story felt like it was incomplete and disjointed. If you enjoyed Da2's story, that's fine, just answer me one question... did we REALLY need a Da2 game? couldn't we just have gone straight to Da3 and have what happened in da2 as the intro cutscene? There was hardly any choice in Da2 anyway... Da2 just wasn't done to its full potential in any area and if you like that, I guess that's fine.

Origin's combat was better than Da2's because it was more tactical though, and FELT more realistic.

Really? You really think the fans would go for that? For Bioware to just preface the game with "Around seven years after the end of the fifth blight, a lone apostate blew up the chantry in Kirkwall, killing the Revered Mother and prompting the Knight Commander to respond by calling for a Right of Annulment. The mages in the Kirkwall circle retaliated, sparking a Thedas wide rebellion. Now, the mages and templars are locked in an all out war that spans the length of the continent."

This actually sound like a terrific opening to a Dragon Age sequel. I know your response was filled with sarcasm and hyperbole, but this right here would have rivalled the prologue to DAO.

Man, the possibilities...

[GodWood]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

TheElderWand wrote...
It's a refreshing change if done right, I guess. Da2, on the other hand, was rushed and the entire story felt like it was incomplete and disjointed. If you enjoyed Da2's story, that's fine, just answer me one question... did we REALLY need a Da2 game? couldn't we just have gone straight to Da3 and have what happened in da2 as the intro cutscene? There was hardly any choice in Da2 anyway... Da2 just wasn't done to its full potential in any area and if you like that, I guess that's fine.

Origin's combat was better than Da2's because it was more tactical though, and FELT more realistic.

Really? You really think the fans would go for that? For Bioware to just preface the game with "Around seven years after the end of the fifth blight, a lone apostate blew up the chantry in Kirkwall, killing the Revered Mother and prompting the Knight Commander to respond by calling for a Right of Annulment. The mages in the Kirkwall circle retaliated, sparking a Thedas wide rebellion. Now, the mages and templars are locked in an all out war that spans the length of the continent."

This actually sound like a terrific opening to a Dragon Age sequel. I know your response was filled with sarcasm and hyperbole, but this right here would have rivalled the prologue to DAO.

Man, the possibilities...

It's funny how Hawke isn't even mentioned.