384 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Zanallen wrote...

However, after the first game we have established that mages are a feared minority that is relegated to living under constant supervision by the templars. If we jumped from that to a continent spanning mage versus templar conflict and learned about it through a prologue slide, people would be pissed.

Why, exactly, do you think people would be pissed at such development, compared to being given the sequel which forces them into the same spot anyway, but taunts them with their lack of influence on the events for 10-20 hours straight... instead of making it a mercifully short cutscene?

(additionally, given the apparent number of chantry haters and/or mage sympathizers present already after the first game, i'd rather expect such turn of events at the beginning of the sequel to be welcome with "whooo, about effin' time" rather than "fffffffuuuuu". On average, anyway)

Modifié par tmp7704, 04 novembre 2011 - 06:23 .

[TheElderWand]

Zanallen wrote...

TheElderWand wrote...

It's a refreshing change if done right, I guess. Da2, on the other hand, was rushed and the entire story felt like it was incomplete and disjointed. If you enjoyed Da2's story, that's fine, just answer me one question... did we REALLY need a Da2 game? couldn't we just have gone straight to Da3 and have what happened in da2 as the intro cutscene? There was hardly any choice in Da2 anyway... Da2 just wasn't done to its full potential in any area and if you like that, I guess that's fine.

Origin's combat was better than Da2's because it was more tactical though, and FELT more realistic.

Really? You really think the fans would go for that? For Bioware to just preface the game with "Around seven years after the end of the fifth blight, a lone apostate blew up the chantry in Kirkwall, killing the Revered Mother and prompting the Knight Commander to respond by calling for a Right of Annulment. The mages in the Kirkwall circle retaliated, sparking a Thedas wide rebellion. Now, the mages and templars are locked in an all out war that spans the length of the continent."

Hell, if that will fly, why set the next game in Qunari occupied Tevinter? We'll have a opening cinematic that explains how the Qunari sailed forth from Par Vollen, crushing all resistence and cut out the tongues of the Tevinter magisters. That's fine, right?

Or even better, we'll skip forward a century or two and base the next game around the seventh blight. Don't worry, we'll explain the history of the sixth blight in the marketing campaign leading up to the games release. That way we can give everyone flint lock pistols and have your warden pc battling the darkspawn in epic high seas adventures. 'Cause as we all know from the events surrounding the sixth blight, the darkspawn learned how to build battleships out of the taint.

That sounded brilliant! Also, you didn't even mention Hawke, which just confirms how useless he was.

DA2 is a fail, nothing more.

[Killjoy Cutter]

It's not that Hawke is powerless or useless, it's that the player is denied obvious paths and any choice that would derail or contradict the predetermined outcome of the game.

[Gunderic]

GodWood wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

TheElderWand wrote...
It's a refreshing change if done right, I guess. Da2, on the other hand, was rushed and the entire story felt like it was incomplete and disjointed. If you enjoyed Da2's story, that's fine, just answer me one question... did we REALLY need a Da2 game? couldn't we just have gone straight to Da3 and have what happened in da2 as the intro cutscene? There was hardly any choice in Da2 anyway... Da2 just wasn't done to its full potential in any area and if you like that, I guess that's fine.

Origin's combat was better than Da2's because it was more tactical though, and FELT more realistic.

Really? You really think the fans would go for that? For Bioware to just preface the game with "Around seven years after the end of the fifth blight, a lone apostate blew up the chantry in Kirkwall, killing the Revered Mother and prompting the Knight Commander to respond by calling for a Right of Annulment. The mages in the Kirkwall circle retaliated, sparking a Thedas wide rebellion. Now, the mages and templars are locked in an all out war that spans the length of the continent."

This actually sound like a terrific opening to a Dragon Age sequel. I know your response was filled with sarcasm and hyperbole, but this right here would have rivalled the prologue to DAO.

Man, the possibilities...

It's funny how Hawke isn't even mentioned.

+1

[TheRealJayDee]

Gunderic wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

TheElderWand wrote...
It's a refreshing change if done right, I guess. Da2, on the other hand, was rushed and the entire story felt like it was incomplete and disjointed. If you enjoyed Da2's story, that's fine, just answer me one question... did we REALLY need a Da2 game? couldn't we just have gone straight to Da3 and have what happened in da2 as the intro cutscene? There was hardly any choice in Da2 anyway... Da2 just wasn't done to its full potential in any area and if you like that, I guess that's fine.

Origin's combat was better than Da2's because it was more tactical though, and FELT more realistic.

Really? You really think the fans would go for that? For Bioware to just preface the game with "Around seven years after the end of the fifth blight, a lone apostate blew up the chantry in Kirkwall, killing the Revered Mother and prompting the Knight Commander to respond by calling for a Right of Annulment. The mages in the Kirkwall circle retaliated, sparking a Thedas wide rebellion. Now, the mages and templars are locked in an all out war that spans the length of the continent."

This actually sound like a terrific opening to a Dragon Age sequel. I know your response was filled with sarcasm and hyperbole, but this right here would have rivalled the prologue to DAO.

Man, the possibilities...

It's funny how Hawke isn't even mentioned.

+1

+2

[AlexXIV]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It's not that Hawke is powerless or useless, it's that the player is denied obvious paths and any choice that would derail or contradict the predetermined outcome of the game.

My problem is that there could have many times that Hawke is being potent and at the same time not changing the outcome. But they are left out, cut out or whatever for whatever reason. What I mean is, if we can't have big victories, let us at least have small ones.

[Gunderic]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It's not that Hawke is powerless or useless, it's that the player is denied obvious paths and any choice that would derail or contradict the predetermined outcome of the game.

The whole game is a textbook example of an 'idiot plot'.

[Addai]

Zanallen wrote...
Really? You really think the fans would go for that?

Absolutely, yes!  Dropping people in to the middle of some action is a great way to open a story.  Having Hawke dither around when really all you want to get to is point B anyway was a waste of a sequel, especially one that wanted to be an action sequel rather than a deep RPG.

[Joy Divison]

Addai: Is that a dwarf avatar?  I ask because I didn't know it was possible to make one look so attractive:lol:

Nice job!

[Addai]

Aw, thank you. Yes that is my Aeducan character.

[LobselVith8]

Zanallen wrote...

Correction. The fifth Blight lasted one year. One. It started in Dragon 9:30 and ended with the Battle of Denerim in Dragon 9:30.

That contradicts the dialogue in the storyline that said a year has already passed. Wynne addresses that it's already been a year since the mage protagonist left the Circle of Ferelden when she speaks to the Surana (or Amell) Warden.

[AlexXIV]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Correction. The fifth Blight lasted one year. One. It started in Dragon 9:30 and ended with the Battle of Denerim in Dragon 9:30.

That contradicts the dialogue in the storyline that said a year has already passed. Wynne addresses that it's already been a year since the mage protagonist left the Circle of Ferelden when she speaks to the Surana (or Amell) Warden.

Wynne says 'it has been almost a year' and it is a conversantion that can be triggered either near the end or in the middle of the game, so it's not really a reliable source. I think the only thing we can really say is that it lasted about a year.

[TheElderWand]

Zanallen's not even replying now. He knows we're right.

[Zanallen]

TheElderWand wrote...

Zanallen's not even replying now. He knows we're right.

I was playing Suikoden 3, actually. Unlike some people, my life doesn't revolve around the BSN.

Anyway, perhaps I adhere to the "show, don't tell" school of game design. I don't think Bioware should add major events to the lore without allowing the player to explore them. This includes the lead up to said events as well. If Bioware is going to skip important events and add them in as codexes or prologue/epilogue slides, they may as well not even make games and just write novels instead.

But let's say that DA2 doesn't matter and that Bioware could have skipped over it while outlining the events of the game in the prologue of the next. How is that any different from any other game ever? You can condense any game plot into a few quick prologue to set the stage the for the next game. Hell, that is basically what the ME comic does for the PS3 version of ME2.

[Zanallen]

GodWood wrote...

It's funny how Hawke isn't even mentioned.

You'll notice that I didn't mention any characters by name. Nor did I mention the Qunari, the death of the viscount, the motivations of any characters, the conditions of the mages within Kirkwall or any other bits of potentially pertinent information.

[TheElderWand]

Zanallen wrote...

TheElderWand wrote...

Zanallen's not even replying now. He knows we're right.

I was playing Suikoden 3, actually. Unlike some people, my life doesn't revolve around the BSN.

Anyway, perhaps I adhere to the "show, don't tell" school of game design. I don't think Bioware should add major events to the lore without allowing the player to explore them. This includes the lead up to said events as well. If Bioware is going to skip important events and add them in as codexes or prologue/epilogue slides, they may as well not even make games and just write novels instead.

But let's say that DA2 doesn't matter and that Bioware could have skipped over it while outlining the events of the game in the prologue of the next. How is that any different from any other game ever? You can condense any game plot into a few quick prologue to set the stage the for the next game. Hell, that is basically what the ME comic does for the PS3 version of ME2.

I know that, you're not Persephone.

and Games that actually matter can't be condensed in to a short cutscene. Just look at Yakuza. If you play Yakuza 3, they have 2 hour cutscene showing what happened in the past two games because so much **** happened. For Dragon Age 2, because only two things major really happened, the qunari attacking kirkwall and kirkwall being terrorized by anders, there didn't need to be a game about it because most of the things that happened in Da2 could be taken out and what happened would've happened anyway.

[Zanallen]

TheElderWand wrote...

I know that, you're not Persephone.

and Games that actually matter can't be condensed in to a short cutscene. Just look at Yakuza. If you play Yakuza 3, they have 2 hour cutscene showing what happened in the past two games because so much **** happened. For Dragon Age 2, because only two things major really happened, the qunari attacking kirkwall and kirkwall being terrorized by anders, there didn't need to be a game about it because most of the things that happened in Da2 could be taken out and what happened would've happened anyway.

Same could be said for any game ever. DA:O - the only important event is stopping the Blight. They could have written off the entire game by just basing the series in a post fifth blight Thedas.

[seraphymon]

Zanallen wrote...

TheElderWand wrote...

I know that, you're not Persephone.

and Games that actually matter can't be condensed in to a short cutscene. Just look at Yakuza. If you play Yakuza 3, they have 2 hour cutscene showing what happened in the past two games because so much **** happened. For Dragon Age 2, because only two things major really happened, the qunari attacking kirkwall and kirkwall being terrorized by anders, there didn't need to be a game about it because most of the things that happened in Da2 could be taken out and what happened would've happened anyway.

Same could be said for any game ever. DA:O - the only important event is stopping the Blight. They could have written off the entire game by just basing the series in a post fifth blight Thedas.

I disagree. There are more important events in DAO. Such as the dalish, the stat of orzammar, the sacred ashes, whos actually ruling fereldin. DA2 had too many side quest build ups just for a simple qunari invasion and mage templar war breakout. Perhaps being due to only being confined to a single city, but thats the thing.

[Zanallen]

seraphymon wrote...

I disagree. There are more important events in DAO. Such as the dalish, the stat of orzammar, the sacred ashes, whos actually ruling fereldin. DA2 had too many side quest build ups just for a simple qunari invasion and mage templar war breakout. Perhaps being due to only being confined to a single city, but thats the thing.

There is nothing important about a lone Dalish tribe battling werewolves. The ruler of Orzammar might be important, but not to the story of the fifth blight. The Sacred Ashes aren't important at all and were basically a filler quest. The ruler of Ferelden might be important, but like Orzammar it has no real importance on the blight.

[tmp7704]

Zanallen wrote...

But let's say that DA2 doesn't matter and that Bioware could have skipped over it while outlining the events of the game in the prologue of the next. How is that any different from any other game ever?

It isn't any different. Which is why people don't really get up in arms over the idea of such possibility, like you stated they would. Because it's pretty normal concept.

As for the "show, don't tell" -- a cutscene does "show". It doesn't delve, but that's a different thing. Which is why e.g the movies which show, don't tell still like to play fast and loose with the detail, and utilize techniques like timeskip or montage for things which are supposed to take place, but have secondary importance.

Modifié par tmp7704, 05 novembre 2011 - 01:29 .

[Aaleel]

Zanallen wrote...

seraphymon wrote...

I disagree. There are more important events in DAO. Such as the dalish, the stat of orzammar, the sacred ashes, whos actually ruling fereldin. DA2 had too many side quest build ups just for a simple qunari invasion and mage templar war breakout. Perhaps being due to only being confined to a single city, but thats the thing.

There is nothing important about a lone Dalish tribe battling werewolves. The ruler of Orzammar might be important, but not to the story of the fifth blight. The Sacred Ashes aren't important at all and were basically a filler quest. The ruler of Ferelden might be important, but like Orzammar it has no real importance on the blight.

What?  Let's forget that you saved the Arl of Redcliffe and bolstered your forces by adding his troops to your cause, who played a large role in the final battle.

But finding the Urn of Sacred Ashes would be the equivalent of someone finding the Holy Grail.  That is one of the biggest events in Chantry history period.  The quest for the Urn of Sacred Ashes probably could have been a game/story in and of itself lol

[DreGregoire]

Aaleel wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

There is nothing important about a lone Dalish tribe battling werewolves. The ruler of Orzammar might be important, but not to the story of the fifth blight. The Sacred Ashes aren't important at all and were basically a filler quest. The ruler of Ferelden might be important, but like Orzammar it has no real importance on the blight.

What?  Let's forget that you saved the Arl of Redcliffe and bolstered your forces by adding his troops to your cause, who played a large role in the final battle.

But finding the Urn of Sacred Ashes would be the equivalent of someone finding the Holy Grail.  That is one of the biggest events in Chantry history period.  The quest for the Urn of Sacred Ashes probably could have been a game/story in and of itself lol

If Hawke had found the sacred ashes she/he would have made the mountain pass and all within his property. Well... my Hawke anyways. LOL! hahaha

Modifié par DreGregoire, 05 novembre 2011 - 01:47 .

[seraphymon]

Zanallen wrote...

seraphymon wrote...

I disagree. There are more important events in DAO. Such as the dalish, the stat of orzammar, the sacred ashes, whos actually ruling fereldin. DA2 had too many side quest build ups just for a simple qunari invasion and mage templar war breakout. Perhaps being due to only being confined to a single city, but thats the thing.

There is nothing important about a lone Dalish tribe battling werewolves. The ruler of Orzammar might be important, but not to the story of the fifth blight. The Sacred Ashes aren't important at all and were basically a filler quest. The ruler of Ferelden might be important, but like Orzammar it has no real importance on the blight.

We're talking about ramifications for future stuff, not what is or isnt important to the main theme of the 5th blight, but for future content. the sacred ashes is like what is said the equivalent to the holy grail. Something that essentially of the most important things in the DA Universe, aside from just curing the Arl in order for him to help not only against the nlight but against loghain. To say it is unimportant is something i literally have no words for .

againthe blight wasnt just one important  event, i merly listing all the other important things. The things with the dalish isnt really world shattering, maybe no t even important.  Depending what DA wants to focus on though it could be possibly important.

Modifié par seraphymon, 05 novembre 2011 - 01:51 .

[TheRealJayDee]

Zanallen wrote...

Anyway, perhaps I adhere to the "show, don't tell" school of game design. I don't think Bioware should add major events to the lore without allowing the player to explore them. This includes the lead up to said events as well. If Bioware is going to skip important events and add them in as codexes or prologue/epilogue slides, they may as well not even make games and just write novels instead.

Funny thing is, there is almost nothing shown in DA2, everything is being told by Varric. The only things we can be certain to have actually happened  when the credits roll are that Cassandra interrogated Varric with no satisfying result and met with Leliana afterwards to continue whatever business they have. We can assume that the mage/templar war is happening, started by somebody blowing up the chantry of Kirkwall, but even that is only told to us. Basically everything we actually get to play in DA2 should be treated the same way as the epilogue slides from DA:O were told to us would be treated: hearsay, with no guarantee for any accuracy. 

Modifié par TheRealJayDee, 05 novembre 2011 - 01:54 .

[Zanallen]

Aaleel wrote...

What?  Let's forget that you saved the Arl of Redcliffe and bolstered your forces by adding his troops to your cause, who played a large role in the final battle.

But finding the Urn of Sacred Ashes would be the equivalent of someone finding the Holy Grail.  That is one of the biggest events in Chantry history period.  The quest for the Urn of Sacred Ashes probably could have been a game/story in and of itself lol

It is an urn filled with ashes that may or may not have been Andraste's and may or may not have magical healing properties. Said urn of ashes may be found or they may be tainted with dragon blood and left there with no one learning of their location. Either way, they won't have an impact on future events.