384 réponses à ce sujet

[Eudaemonium]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If they want to make God of War, fine, but they should tell us they're making God of War so we can stop buying the games.

But then they sell less games. So... why would they have told us that?

Presumably they're making God of War because they think people like God of War.  In which case, they should WANT to publicise that it's God of War so the God of War fans can find it.

Apart from the fact that the game is nothing like God of War, remotely .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Like I would know. I wouldn't touch God of War with a ten metre cattle prod.

[Fast Jimmy]

I like Kratos as a character infinitely more than I liked Fenris, Hawke or Anders.

[KilrB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Like I would know. I wouldn't touch God of War with a ten metre cattle prod.

I would ... can I overcharge it?

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I like Kratos as a character infinitely more than I liked Fenris, Hawke or Anders.

Yeah...me too, and I didn't like the game series too much. So that says something I suppose.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If they want to make God of War, fine, but they should tell us they're making God of War so we can stop buying the games.

But then they sell less games. So... why would they have told us that?

Because lying to people to take their money is bad? 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Like I would know. I wouldn't touch God of War with a ten metre cattle prod.

Same here.  

[saMoorai]

Actually, I found RPing in DA2 to be easy.

My Hawke was a Snarky Mercenary who would only do a job if it got him paid (Though very rarely he would sometimes do it free out of compassion.). He at first hated Mages due to Bethany receiving special treatment when they were younger and always being on the run, but still respected and loved his father. Overtime, he became more and more open to the idea of free mages to the point where he fell in love with one (Merrill). By the end of the game, he had grown into a large supporter of the Mages.

My Hawke was also loyal to a fault. He could easily forgive his companions if they betrayed him and would help them whenever they needed it even if it went against him and his beliefs. The only times where he wouldn't is when it would put one of his companions in danger. Hawke considered anyone who traveled with him a close friend, even Anders who he would argue with often and Sebastion who he considered to have Friendly rivalry with was one of his best friends.

[Fast Jimmy]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If they want to make God of War, fine, but they should tell us they're making God of War so we can stop buying the games.

But then they sell less games. So... why would they have told us that?

Because lying to people to take their money is bad? 

HAHAHAHAAA!!!

Oh, man... man... I haven't laughed that hard since I was a little tyke... Woooo...

I'm willing to bet that the average person in an industialized nation is hit by over 1000 lies to get them to buy something a week.

Heck, I'd consider taking that bet if it was even just A DAY.

[Quole]

It is so hard to PLAY this game.

[Sepewrath]

tmp7704 wrote...
Yes, which is why such game isn't affected by being saddled with a delivery you aren't happy with. Which was the OP's complaint.

In other words, a silent line of dialogue in DAO can have certain intent assigned to it by the writer (let's say for example "angry, threatening") and the NPC who hears that line will have a matching reaction. But how exactly the "angry, threatening" line sounds is left to the player's discretion because it never gets voiced. So the character can be imagined to either growl softly, or scream his/her head off, or whatever happens to match the player's idea for their character's nature.

As expected, basically another chapter in the silent protagonist vs voice protagonist saga. But that's why I said, in the last line of that post, its no different than putting this game on mute, except that your characters mouth and face actually move. If you mute the game, then delivery happens anyway you want, you wont be able to hear anyone else, but hey you can roleplay

With a silent protagonist, you gain the ability to "the apple is red" is said, however you dream it up, but you lose just as much as you gain. For example, the Friend/Rival system, would have been completely hollow without a voiced character. For me, establishing a relationship and a personality is more paramount to roleplaying than meticulous line delivery, particularly when the line is not actual delivered and the NPC responds to the way its written anyway. That's why we have icons in DA2, you may have thought of a nice delivery of the line. But then the character responds like you dropkicked their grandmother.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Sepewrath wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
Yes, which is why such game isn't affected by being saddled with a delivery you aren't happy with. Which was the OP's complaint.

In other words, a silent line of dialogue in DAO can have certain intent assigned to it by the writer (let's say for example "angry, threatening") and the NPC who hears that line will have a matching reaction. But how exactly the "angry, threatening" line sounds is left to the player's discretion because it never gets voiced. So the character can be imagined to either growl softly, or scream his/her head off, or whatever happens to match the player's idea for their character's nature.

As expected, basically another chapter in the silent protagonist vs voice protagonist saga. But that's why I said, in the last line of that post, its no different than putting this game on mute, except that your characters mouth and face actually move. If you mute the game, then delivery happens anyway you want, you wont be able to hear anyone else, but hey you can roleplay

With a silent protagonist, you gain the ability to "the apple is red" is said, however you dream it up, but you lose just as much as you gain. For example, the Friend/Rival system, would have been completely hollow without a voiced character. For me, establishing a relationship and a personality is more paramount to roleplaying than meticulous line delivery, particularly when the line is not actual delivered and the NPC responds to the way its written anyway. That's why we have icons in DA2, you may have thought of a nice delivery of the line. But then the character responds like you dropkicked their grandmother.

This thread is not a Silent vs Voiced thread. The inability to roleplay in DA2 has nothing to do with the fact that it's voiced; it's how it is voiced and the actual choice we have in dialogue.

[HanabPacal]

saMOOrai182 wrote...

Actually, I found RPing in DA2 to be easy.

My Hawke was a Snarky Mercenary who would only do a job if it got him paid (Though very rarely he would sometimes do it free out of compassion.). He at first hated Mages due to Bethany receiving special treatment when they were younger and always being on the run, but still respected and loved his father. Overtime, he became more and more open to the idea of free mages to the point where he fell in love with one (Merrill). By the end of the game, he had grown into a large supporter of the Mages.

My Hawke was also loyal to a fault. He could easily forgive his companions if they betrayed him and would help them whenever they needed it even if it went against him and his beliefs. The only times where he wouldn't is when it would put one of his companions in danger. Hawke considered anyone who traveled with him a close friend, even Anders who he would argue with often and Sebastion who he considered to have Friendly rivalry with was one of his best friends.

I’ve noticed that a number of the people who like DA2 have defended the game against the “it’s not an RPG” and the “it’s difficult to role-play” accusations with a reply stating that they have:

Created a background for their Hawke(s).
Created a motivation or motivations for their Hawke(s).
Conversed as though the in game Hawke was representative of the background and motivations that they have ascribed to him/her.
Quested as though the in game Hawke was representative of the background and motivations that they have ascribed to him/her.
(even) Leveled as though the in game Hawke was representative of the background and motivations that they have ascribed to him/her.
 
While I think that all of this effort is great, and it shows a lot of creativity and dedication to get the most out of the gaming experience, it’s not actually role-playing within the world/parameters/system of the game. Essentially what this comes down to is creating a fan fiction character bio in your (that’s a general “your”) head and pretending that it is transferring across into the game and having an impact. And even though this is playing a role in your head, the fact of the matter is that not one thing that is ascribed to the character has any impact whatsoever within the game. In other words, while this approach of self-ascribed character/role/background is likely very satisfying to those who employee it, it is not in any sense facilitating role-playing in DA2.
 
What you and others were forced to do was stringently tailor a background/character story that could fit into the very limiting system of the game, rather than choosing a background and have the game facilitate that with impact and real choice. This is why so many people find it difficult to role-play in DA2, because there is absolutely no significant recognition (or impact from) character build or player choice. Essentially, DA2 ended up being more of an ‘Aide to Writing Fan Fiction within the DA Universe’ than a game that allows people to role-play their respective character(s) where character build impacts more than combat, and where a significant cause and effect system of choice allows the player to actually role-play within the parameters of the story. This fact, the lack of impact/recognition within the game, has sucked the wind out of the sails of many people who would have otherwise done as you did with creating a detailed background. But since the Dragon Age 2 system doesn’t allow it many people didn’t bother. Most people aren’t going to work so hard in order to accommodate a game.
 
(Heading off the inevitable - Choosing the tone that your Hawke uses to make replies is not role-playing; it’s merely choosing a tone.)
 
For a deeply thoughtful, well-written piece on character build(s) and subsequent impact within a game system (if you haven’t done so already) see ‘mrcrusty’s’ thread titled Dragon Age 2 and future games – Character Systems, Gameplay and Roleplaying. 

Modifié par HanabPacal, 08 novembre 2011 - 11:55 .

[Morroian]

HanabPacal wrote...

While I think that all of this effort is great, and it shows a lot of creativity and dedication to get the most out of the gaming experience, it’s not actually role-playing within the world/parameters/system of the game. 

Yeah it is actually, the fact that we're able to role play within the limitations of the game essentially proves it. We're not ignoring the events of the game as you imply, we're working around them. I would describe that as working within the game's parameters. I for one acknowledge that the role playing in the game is limited compared to say Fallout New Vegas but its still role playing, all games have some limitations that the players has to work within.

We're got people who want silent protaginsts because that way they can imagine a tone even when the tone goes against the writers intention. How is that different from what you describe?

And there is an impact on the game its just personal, on the party members and the people around Hawke.

[AlexXIV]

Morroian wrote...

HanabPacal wrote...

While I think that all of this effort is great, and it shows a lot of creativity and dedication to get the most out of the gaming experience, it’s not actually role-playing within the world/parameters/system of the game. 

Yeah it is actually, the fact that we're able to role play within the limitations of the game essentially proves it. We're not ignoring the events of the game as you imply, we're working around them. I would describe that as working within the game's parameters. I for one acknowledge that the role playing in the game is limited compared to say Fallout New Vegas but its still role playing, all games have some limitations that the players has to work within.

We're got people who want silent protaginsts because that way they can imagine a tone even when the tone goes against the writers intention. How is that different from what you describe?

And there is an impact on the game its just personal, on the party members and the people around Hawke.

No you're finding excuses. You see what choices you have and then you decide that your Hawke made the decision. That's not much different from DA:O maybe, but in DA:O you at least had some things you could decide all alone. If roleplaying for you is to pick the choices that make sense then you have no idea. Roleplaying means to pick the choices you think fit your character best. And if you lack them, it is limited roleplay. Because you have to change your character to fit the storyline.

You think it is creativity to make a character that fits the role the game wants you to take? It may be common sense, logic, adaptablitly, but it is certainly not creative. You just do what others want you to do. And honestly if an RPG doesn't let you think outside of the box, at least to an extent, then it just shows that the devs didn't bother to think of different possible reactions to a situation. And that's pretty much what makes a good RPG. That the writers surprise you by even supporting unconventional choices if you make them.

[HanabPacal]

Morroian wrote...

HanabPacal wrote...

While I think that all of this effort is great, and it shows a lot of creativity and dedication to get the most out of the gaming experience, it’s not actually role-playing within the world/parameters/system of the game. 

Yeah it is actually, the fact that we're able to role play within the limitations of the game essentially proves it. We're not ignoring the events of the game as you imply, we're working around them. I would describe that as working within the game's parameters. I for one acknowledge that the role playing in the game is limited compared to say Fallout New Vegas but its still role playing, all games have some limitations that the players has to work within.

We're got people who want silent protaginsts because that way they can imagine a tone even when the tone goes against the writers intention. How is that different from what you describe?

And there is an impact on the game its just personal, on the party members and the people around Hawke.

Actually, it isn’t.  What you’re doing is role-playing your character bio/background/motivations in your head, but those things don’t spill over into the game itself.  You might shoehorn them into the narrative and/or game world but the narrative and/or game world are not impacted by them.  In other words, you are facilitating the game by creating x, y and z for your character where x, y and z were intentionally constructed to appear as if they impact the game. However, they don’t change anything or open up any possibilities that wouldn’t be open to any different character background/build.   
 
Yes, you can choose certain things where companion NPC’s are concerned (romance, staying with or leaving the party) but these little things don’t impact anything of the bigger picture.  Also, character build doesn’t impact them (outside of mage or nay) just as it doesn’t impact the narrative or quests in any way.  What the real choices with consequences come down to in the game are more akin to a very simplistic and limited friendship/dating sim than a role-playing experience spanning a story covering “ten” years.  And this may be enough for you, which is great (not being facetious).  However, outside of some companion NPC choice and subsequent very minor consequences, within the grand scheme of the game what has your role-playing affected?  I’m not talking about your perception of the game or you perceptions of the game’s events, but actual affect within the game.  Also, what options/possibilities has your character build opened up in the game that weren’t available to every other character build?
 
By the way, I never implied that you (or others doing this) were ignoring the events of the game, as you stated in your response.  Rather, in quite the opposite vein, I’m stating that you and others are grasping at the minutest details of the game’s events in order to create a character bio/background/motivations that fit into those events and can appear to have an impact. 
 
Again, I think that it’s great that you (and others) really enjoy putting forth the effort.  I, however, (even though I fully understand that every game has limitations) expect at least some flexibility for the game to facilitate me simply role-playing within the game, rather than the game expecting me to facilitate an extreme amount of limitation in order to role-play.  And just as there is nothing wrong with you being extremely forgiving with those very stringent limitations, there is nothing wrong with me for expecting a role-playing game to not be so extremely limited when it comes to role-playing possibility.   

[jbrand2002uk]

^ So your saying what exactly that DAO players who find DA2 hard to RP are what lazy ?

[HanabPacal]

Morroian wrote...

HanabPacal wrote...

While I think that all of this effort is great, and it shows a lot of creativity and dedication to get the most out of the gaming experience, it’s not actually role-playing within the world/parameters/system of the game. 

Yeah it is actually, the fact that we're able to role play within the limitations of the game essentially proves it. We're not ignoring the events of the game as you imply, we're working around them. I would describe that as working within the game's parameters. I for one acknowledge that the role playing in the game is limited compared to say Fallout New Vegas but its still role playing, all games have some limitations that the players has to work within.

We're got people who want silent protaginsts because that way they can imagine a tone even when the tone goes against the writers intention. How is that different from what you describe?

And there is an impact on the game its just personal, on the party members and the people around Hawke.

Sorry, I missed addressing this bolded bit in my first response to you.
 
That’s not what I was saying with my original comment.  What I meant (but didn’t fully detail) was that choosing a canned tone, a tone that the writer’s want and not one that (“you”) the player wants is not role-playing.  It’s not helping to direct a conversation into the territory of possibility based on your character build/character bio.  But, rather, it is simply conveying what the writer’s want in tone x – where, in the end, tone x doesn’t make a difference to outcome or open up that all important aspect of possibility.

[HanabPacal]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

^ So your saying what exactly that DAO players who find DA2 hard to RP are what lazy ?

So, what?  You don’t like what I wrote, but don’t actually have anything substantial to refute it or to discuss, so you try to make it look like there is something wrong with anyone that finds the role-playing limitations way too constricting in DA2.  This is just another instance of “if you don’t agree with me then you are dysfunctional” that is so prevalent on these boards. 
 
Perhaps, instead of always taking swipes at people that don’t share your opinion you could attempt to actually engage in conversation.  I’ve seen your posts around and will not reply to you again unless you can actually try to discuss like a rational adult.  Perhaps you should consider the question that I’ve seen you ask so many others – “Why do you take a game so seriously?”  And you definitely take it seriously as you snipe, bash, insult, and sarcastically dismiss anything that is in opposition to your thoughts.  Are you so insecure, so intolerant of other opinions or just someone that is so perpetually angry that you can’t simply discuss with those who don’t think exactly as you do?  Whatever the answer is, you need to dial it back a bit.  Also, the topic of conversation is DA2 not DA:O – which you seem to be obsessed with.

[jbrand2002uk]

Explain this then you say that those who create a background/personallity etc in DA2 that works around the pre written script are not role playing,how is this different to DAO/ME et al all games RPG's or not have a script written with a pre determined intent including DAO/ME fallout etc having a pre determined starting point with multiple "Origins" does not change this every response in every RPG was written with a pre determined intent and tone and the corresponding response by the NPC was written in regard to the question/answer you have just picked for your PC.

So it does not matter how you edit the wording/delivery in your head the game is programmed to respond along the lines of the pre written script which is not written by you the player but by a writer .So by editing the tone/delivery in your head to something other than how the Original script was intended then you are acting outside of the confines of the game and by your own definition not roleplaying.

What confuses me is that you lambast DA2 for being limiting and then simultaneously praise other games that have those same limitations.

Modifié par jbrand2002uk, 08 novembre 2011 - 02:48 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If they want to make God of War, fine, but they should tell us they're making God of War so we can stop buying the games.

But then they sell less games. So... why would they have told us that?

Because lying to people to take their money is bad? 

HAHAHAHAAA!!!

Oh, man... man... I haven't laughed that hard since I was a little tyke... Woooo...

I'm willing to bet that the average person in an industialized nation is hit by over 1000 lies to get them to buy something a week.

Heck, I'd consider taking that bet if it was even just A DAY.

And? 

That makes it OK? 

You're fine with being lied to constantly? 

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Explain this then you say that those who create a background/personallity etc in DA2 that works around the pre written script are not role playing,how is this different to DAO/ME et al all games RPG's or not have a script written with a pre determined intent including DAO/ME fallout etc having a pre determined starting point with multiple "Origins" does not change this every response in every RPG was written with a pre determined intent and tone and the corresponding response by the NPC was written in regard to the question/answer you have just picked for your PC.

So it does not matter how you edit the wording/delivery in your head the game is programmed to respond along the lines of the pre written script which is not written by you the player but by a writer .So by editing the tone/delivery in your head to something other than how the Original script was intended then you are acting outside of the confines of the game and by your own definition not roleplaying.

What confuses me is that you lambast DA2 for being limiting and then simultaneously praise other games that have those same limitations.

Why is it here on BSN, does the entirety of roleplaying come down to dialog options for some people? In particular the tone of dialog options. That is to say, clicking dialog options, attributing personalities to those options = roleplaying and stuff like character building, meaningful C&C and gameplay is just fluff?

That's always escaped me and it's weird when I see it implied even if it's not said explicitly.

Also, he already answers those questions.

Again, I think that it’s great that you (and others) really enjoy putting forth the effort. I, however, (even though I fully understand that every game has limitations) expect at least some flexibility for the game to facilitate me simply role-playing within the game, rather than the game expecting me to facilitate an extreme amount of limitation in order to role-play. And just as there is nothing wrong with you being extremely forgiving with those very stringent limitations, there is nothing wrong with me for expecting a role-playing game to not be so extremely limited when it comes to role-playing possibility.

And probably the more pertinent one:

Also, the topic of conversation is DA2 not DA:O – which you seem to be obsessed with.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 08 novembre 2011 - 03:33 .

[jbrand2002uk]

 My point Mcrusty was that regardless of the game or genre the interactions between the PC and NPC's are all written with a pre determined tone/intent alot of RP complaints around DA2 genereally cosisted of players feeling disconnect because the way the VA delivered the line didnt match how the gamer envisioned his PC delivering it.
Some players have got round this by creating their own backstory and personality and adapted it on the fly to account for the choices the game allows, which HanabPacal claims isnt roleplaying for a multitude of fancy worded terms. The reason I focused on DAO is because thats what most of the critics use as a comparison whether valid or not and my own disappointment with DAO aside.
One of the regular criticisms of DA2 is the lack or origins as in DAO while this may help some players with their "immersion" its soesnt really make much difference as your still restricted to 3 species with 2 or so social teers( noble and commoner).
My key point is this I have faults with DA2 too, but I find it somewhat hypocritical to lambast a game like DA2 for being "limiting" while praising a game that equally as limiting jsut hidden under some Faux choices and "window dressing".So Yes I agree DA2 can be limiting in terms of RP possibilities but no more so than any other RPG from any other Developer 

I will allow my more verbal opponents a customary 1hour to have a lie down in a dark room and recover from the shock of a DA2 Fan pointing out a flaw in DA2

[AlexXIV]

jbrand2002uk wrote...
So Yes I agree DA2 can be limiting in terms of RP possibilities but no more so than any other RPG from any other Developer 

This kind of statement makes it so hard to take you serious. There are differences and even the chance of two games having the same amount of freedom is out of question. Also it doesn't matter how limiting it actually is if the player doesn't feel limited. You see, to satisfy me there need not be alot of options, just those that I would have picked anyway. I could play the game through from start to end and never notice any limit. But that's coincidence. Another person may have tried other options and noticed there are none (noteworthy), getting disappointed. So bottomline, you liked it, good for you. Others didn't, hence they voice their complaints. As if you wouldn't complain about things you dislike considering the nature and number of your posts ... Have you ever considered that you liking it more than others is merely a matter of you getting what you wanted and others not? And that you insulting others for not liking the same things you liked is just being ignorant?

Bioware labeled/advertised this game to be many things that it wasn't really. And the answer is unsatisfied customers. That's a reaction they simply have to live with. Like people have to live with the fact that they spent their money on something they expected more of. Winner is still Bioware because they made money, while some of their costumers spent money for something they maybe didn't need.