384 réponses à ce sujet

[IRMcGhee]

Exactly.

At any rate, I don't find it any more difficult to RP a version of Hawke than I did my Warden. You've got limited options in any cRPG in that respect, you just have to work with the writer to some degree.

[TEWR]

The Big Nothing wrote...

The whole voiced protagonist thing is a hindrance to my role-playing, but it appeals to the masses who do not want to read or think about what they are saying--essentially, non-Bioware fans. The developers are catering to the indifferent.

I liked Origins much more than it's 'sequel'.

Ah this old falsehood.

[sarcasm]God how I missed this.[/sarcasm]

[Bayz]

The Big Nothing wrote...

The whole voiced protagonist thing is a hindrance to my role-playing, but it appeals to the masses who do not want to read or think about what they are saying--essentially, non-Bioware fans. The developers are catering to the indifferent.

I liked Origins much more than it's 'sequel'.

Ohh Noes! Bioware is trying to expand their fanbase instead of pleasing the same fanbase they had!!!

How dare you Bioware to try earning more money!! It is not like you do videogames for a living!!

You Obviously do them for your old fanbase to be kept, not to earn money so you can buy stuff, pay for your houses, upkeep your families, buy your goods...eeeevil eeevil Bioware!

Honestly don't you people get tired of this already? I mean, are you going to spend the rest of your gaming lifes ranting about Gaming Companies behaving like companies not like your own personal playthings? Play it, if you like it, fine if you don't don't buy DLC's or even more games.

I was a huge fan of the Total War series, bought all from Shogun to Napoleon, I was unpleased with the changes made in Empire, I saw that Napoleon removed the few things I liked in Empire so I decided just not to buy DLC's and not taking Shogun 2...and no I do not go to the forums of Sega to rant years and years about why they wanted to make money...because I kinda see the point of you know, earning money and stuff...

Also videogames are a kind of art, experimenting with new concepts is what makes this industry moving, making them more mainstream help the industry to expand, I don't see why it seems to be so hard to grasp...

Modifié par Bayz, 01 novembre 2011 - 11:13 .

[tmp7704]

Bayz wrote...

Honestly don't you people get tired of this already?

If they were, they wouldn't complain. This question is as pointless as if someone asked you if you don't get tired of complaining about other people complaining -- obv., the answer is "no".

[AlexXIV]

tmp7704 wrote...

Bayz wrote...

Honestly don't you people get tired of this already?

If they were, they wouldn't complain. This question is as pointless as if someone asked you if you don't get tired of complaining about other people complaining -- obv., the answer is "no".

Don't tell me you're complaining about him complaining about someone who is complaining?

[The Big Nothing]

Sylvianus wrote...

Morroian wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...

The whole voiced protagonist thing is a hindrance to my role-playing, but it appeals to the masses who do not want to read or think about what they are saying--essentially, non-Bioware fans. The developers are catering to the indifferent.
 

Wrong.

I'd say wrong too. Sometimes I really wonder what are the " masses " you are all talking about.
I love reading, and thinking - sometimes -

And I prefer a voiced protagonist.

Not because I don't want to read, but because it is dynamic, more alive, more potential for immersion, and emotions.  It's quite honest, I think. I don't doubt many ( in the masses ) think like me.

The "masses" would be children and non-gamers. Bioware's new target demographic is people who don't want to play Bioware games. 

And the marketing stunts get old - fast. I can't even watch a youtube video anymore without someone trying to sell me bluetooth, hair dye, or some other ****. I like to believe that people know what they want without someone hitting them in the face with it.  

Bioware has long been my favorite developer, but something has changed - and maybe it's me; all I know is that Bioware and I don't cuddle like we used to, and I'd rather see her wither and die than flourish in someone else's bed. I'm selfish that way.

The bottom line is this: It doesn't take a lot of money to make a quality product - love makes a game classic; it does, however, take a lot of money to make garbage appealing.

Also, Morroian, thanks for your input. You would make a wonderful game show host.

Modifié par The Big Nothing, 02 novembre 2011 - 03:08 .

[zacktly]

The Big Nothing wrote...

The "masses" would be children and non-gamers. Bioware's new target demographic is people who don't want to play Bioware games. 

And the marketing stunts get old - fast. I can't even watch a youtube video anymore without someone trying to sell me bluetooth, hair dye, or some other ****. I like to believe that people know what they want without someone hitting them in the face with it.  

Bioware has long been my favorite developer, but something has changed - and maybe it's me; all I know is that Bioware and I don't cuddle like we used to, and I'd rather see her wither and die than flourish in someone else's bed. I'm selfish that way.

The bottom line is this: It doesn't take a lot of money to make a quality product - love makes a game classic; it does, however, take a lot of money to make garbage appealing.

Also, Morroian, thanks for your input. You would make a wonderful game show host.

Yeesh. Strong words. I don't know how you can go on the way you are. Not only is the voice acting in DA2 (especially Nicolas Boulton's) apt and warm, I'd say the writing is much smoother and more nuanced. It isn't lazy or childish to become attached to a more developed character in a smaller world. The writers maintained the complicated politics and high stakes of the original game, and (IMHO) came up with way more laugh-out-loud-funny one liners in this game.

Modifié par zacktly, 02 novembre 2011 - 03:51 .

[The Big Nothing]

zacktly wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...

The "masses" would be children and non-gamers. Bioware's new target demographic is people who don't want to play Bioware games. 

And the marketing stunts get old - fast. I can't even watch a youtube video anymore without someone trying to sell me bluetooth, hair dye, or some other ****. I like to believe that people know what they want without someone hitting them in the face with it.  

Bioware has long been my favorite developer, but something has changed - and maybe it's me; all I know is that Bioware and I don't cuddle like we used to, and I'd rather see her wither and die than flourish in someone else's bed. I'm selfish that way.

The bottom line is this: It doesn't take a lot of money to make a quality product - love makes a game classic; it does, however, take a lot of money to make garbage appealing.

Also, Morroian, thanks for your input. You would make a wonderful game show host.

Yeesh. Strong words. I don't know how you can go on the way you are. Not only is the voice acting in DA2 (especially Nicolas Boulton's) apt and warm, I'd say the writing is much smoother and more nuanced. It isn't lazy or childish to become attached to a more developed character in a smaller world. The writers maintained the complicated politics and high stakes of the original game, and (IMHO) came up with way more laugh-out-loud-funny one liners in this game.

Whoa, whoa. I said nothing about the writing. As a matter of fact, I felt that the strength of the narrative was the only consistent between games. David Gaider and his writing team deserved a better vehicle for their story, though. 

And I agree with you about the voice-acting, but I do not like having a voiced protagonist whose dialogue is my own to choose. I just feel the voice and its inflections are better imagined.

Honestly, my gripes are with the whole of Bioware, not just Dragon Age and its changes. I have friends who don't want to play these games anymore, and that pisses me off. I'm talking people from Bioware's classic RPG era that I can't chat with anymore about new Bioware games.
I understand that a lot of complaints are foolish, but a winning formula does not need to be altered. Dragon Age: Origins was as close to a masterpiece as Bioware has ever come and they've forsaken it.

Modifié par The Big Nothing, 02 novembre 2011 - 04:27 .

[ByeDragonAgeUniverseIllMissYou]

Couldn't stand Hawke, hopefully BioWare will bring back our voiceless Wardens or allow us to create new (voiceless) characters (and choose the species of course).

[tmp7704]

AlexXIV wrote...

Don't tell me you're complaining about him complaining about someone who is complaining?

No, i'm only providing a response to his question. I have no strong opinion on the subject, one way or the other ;|

[zacktly]

The Big Nothing wrote...

Whoa, whoa. I said nothing about the writing. As a matter of fact, I felt that the strength of the narrative was the only consistent between games. David Gaider and his writing team deserved a better vehicle for their story, though. 

And I agree with you about the voice-acting, but I do not like having a voiced protagonist whose dialogue is my own to choose. I just feel the voice and its inflections are better imagined.

Honestly, my gripes are with the whole of Bioware, not just Dragon Age and its changes. I have friends who don't want to play these games anymore, and that pisses me off. I'm talking people from Bioware's classic RPG era that I can't chat with anymore about new Bioware games.
I understand that a lot of complaints are foolish, but a winning formula does not need to be altered. Dragon Age: Origins was as close to a masterpiece as Bioware has ever come and they've forsaken it.

IIIII see now. You aren't the only person I know who was sad to lose the broader character creation of DA:O. And sure, it's a much grittier game with less, for lack of a better word, "awesomeness" tacked on. But I'm not ready to say giving Hawke a more linear history and voice acting (of an angel) were bad things. More like a new prompt in a creative writing class. And the sibling stuff wouldn't have been the same without these things, I think. I mostly played mage, and Hawke/Carver's squabbling was one of my favorite parts of the whole game.

In any case, I keep reading that the developers are paying attention to the boards, and mean to try and incorporate the best parts of both games into DA3. Maybe the Superstar of Val Royeaux (or whoever the protagonist is) will have a few more backgrounds or races to pick from.

Modifié par zacktly, 02 novembre 2011 - 05:04 .

[Morroian]

The Big Nothing wrote...

Also, Morroian, thanks for your input. You would make a wonderful game show host.

You needlessly cast aspersions on those who happen to like DA2 on the basis of nothing but your own prejudice, it got the response it deserved.

[eroeru]

tmp7704 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Don't tell me you're complaining about him complaining about someone who is complaining?

No, i'm only providing a response to his question. I have no strong opinion on the subject, one way or the other ;|

What's wrong with a strong opinion?

[GodWood]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...
The whole voiced protagonist thing is a hindrance to my role-playing, but it appeals to the masses who do not want to read or think about what they are saying--essentially, non-Bioware fans. The developers are catering to the indifferent.

Ah this old falsehood.

[sarcasm]God how I missed this.[/sarcasm]

It's really not that outlandish a claim.

The average casual gamer prefers having their character voiced and having the game be more 'cinematic' as opposed to having to read and have the game as less cinematic.

For people who enjoy the voiced protaganist and don't see themselves as 'casuals' I'd imagine they just don't mind sacrficing a great deal of roleplaying freedom in favour of having the game be more cinematic.

[eroeru]

An understandable comparison that has been brought up is with Bethesda Elder Scrolls games - and I agree that Morrowind was a much better RP game than DA2.

The interesting thing is that I really disliked Oblivion at the same time. It's more of that "contested sequel" thing I guess - but in this case I played Oblivion first, so no expectations involved.

I just felt the whole thing - maybe generlizing it to "artistic style" - lacking in camparison with the older one. So I really came to think that these really are "dark" times for gaming, and RP gaming even more so. Things seem much more simplified and less complex (hence, easier to get into).

Albeit going a bit astray with this, I'm really quite interested about the fact how old are these people (from what generation), who like DA2 more, just because the not-so-easy-to-get-into older games were far easier to "get", when it was the best technology could give. It's a matter of habits I guess, but do these generation-related habits play a larger role?

And about Bethesda, I'm interested about other folk' view, so here is a poll - I can't make one about the age of ones who liked DA2 - it would seem angrying to some folk.
Morrowind vs Oblivion: http://social.biowar...14/polls/26269/

Edit: I made a poll about older vs newer, never mind the difference in generation anyway: http://social.biowar...14/polls/26270/

Double-edit: I think I managed to figure out how to ask what I wanted about the generation thing ..:
http://social.biowar...14/polls/26271/

Modifié par eroeru, 02 novembre 2011 - 07:03 .

[DeathDragon185]

I would quite like it if the DW was used like in DE:HR, where it said WHAT YOU WERE GOING TO SAY!. It's really my only complaint about the DW.

[Eudaemonium]

I started gaming in the late eighties, but probably best fit into the 90s bracket. My first Bioware game was Baldur's Gate. I love BG and BG2 with a passion. My favourite ever game is Planescape: Torment. Though, I'd almost have trouble classifying it as a game. It was more of a novel with a user interface.

Most people here know how much I love DA2, though I love it and hate it for reasons outlined by critics like Kris Ligman and Alex Raymond (and recently Mattie Brice) more than those standard game criticism concentrating on purely gameplay elements. As a game, Origins is obviously vastly superior, even if only for its completeness.  As a piece of narrative art, I think it's nuanced, brilliant, and while not without (significant) flaws, is not what I would have expected from any AAA developer, even Bioware. DA2 is not a good game, but gameplay systems are things that can be worked on. I feel the DLC has gone a long way to proving that the gameplay systems and cut corners are things that the team will be working on, but at its core I think the game is amazing. Though possibly not as a game. As Ligman outlined in her introductory paragraph: "It’s fantastic, and it’s horrible. It’s brilliant, and it’s ridiculous.
This is the best thing I’ve ever played. I want my money back."

Regarding the age old cinematic versus customisation debate, I'm not above admitting I prefer the former over the latter in the current games market. The enormous customisation and silent protagonist worked in things like BG/2 and PS:T. I also don't put much stock in what Sylvius calls the emergent narrative. The fact that my Warden's motivations, backstory and personal traumas existed only in my own head without any tangible effect on the gameworld was something I considered a flaw of DAO rather than a strength. If I want that I'll just go write some original short stories or fan-fiction, or PnP. I don't play games for emergent narrative, I play them to experience a narrative in which I play a part. I'd rather have someone like Hawke who managed (to me) to balance customisation with feeling like a person in the story I wanted to know more about. I always felt I "owned" Hawke in a way I never felt with Shepard, but at the same time never "owned" her enough for her to be "mine": Hawke was a person in the story Varric was telling, and while she was someone whsoe personality I shaped, she was always her own person. I felt I "owned" the Warden more than either Hawke or Shepard, but to me this came at the cost of the character being utterly incidental to the story; I'm one of those that consider DAO to be essentially about Alistair. The "cost of Hawke" was a cost I was thus more than happy to pay.

[FASherman]

Easy enough to fix, folks.

if $OPTION["voiced"] = TRUE;
then
play $response;
else
play NULL;
endif

Everyone gets what they want.

Also, do away with the response icons.

Character personality on an always changing 3 axis scale:

X-Axis (Reactions) - Supportive|Humorous|Neutral|Sarcastic|Insulting
Y-Axis (Outlook) Idealist|Pragmatist|Realist|Cynic|Anarchist
Z-Axis (Relationship) - Devoted|Serious|Casual|Adventurous|Hedonist

5x5x5= 125 personality combinations

Companions/NPCs exist as a fixed point in the "personality cube" created by these three axes. The player's personality changes based on decisions (made without the icons as a cue) and dialog choices. How well the player functions with a companion is dependent upon the distance between them in personality.

You want a three dimensional character, there you go.

Modifié par FASherman, 02 novembre 2011 - 11:58 .

[Fast Jimmy]

That is actually a pretty brilliant, albeit difficult system to implement.

While the system itself is fairly simple, putting the amount of writing/VA involved into that many different reactions in dialogue, let alone what it could influence narratively, would be a logistical nightmare.

Also, I think it would be interesting to see NPCs not be fixed points, but have the possibility of changing (see the hardening of Allistair and Leliana in DAO, or possibly the change of Anders as DA2 progressed). This would show how your interactions and personality affected those around you. If anyone thinks the personality of the people around you, particularly your leaders or close friends, don't affect you, try taking a Psych 101 class.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 02 novembre 2011 - 12:59 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

That is actually a pretty brilliant, albeit difficult system to implement.

While the system itself is fairly simple, putting the amount of writing/VA involved into that many different reactions in dialogue, let alone what it could influence narratively, would be a logistical nightmare.

Also, I think it would be interesting to see NPCs not be fixed points, but have the possibility of changing (see the hardening of Allistair and Leliana in DAO, or possibly the change of Anders as DA2 progressed). This would show how your interactions and personality affected those around you. If anyone thinks the personality of the people around you, particularly your leaders or close friends, don't affect you, try taking a Psych 101 class.

Silent Protagonist + Explanation System instead of paraphrase + Intent Modifiers. Depending on the situation, you'd use different types of responses (reactions, outlook, relationship).

Daggerfall did this system which I guess kinda takes the wind out of it's sails in terms of tonal dialog innovation. However, it used a keyword system instead of actual dialog responses in dialog trees.



NPCs could be linked to a disposition system, meaning that if you bring skill checks back in, you could bypass the instant win mentality use them to help you get a desired outcome rather than immediately getting it. To that end, I'd love class, skill, attribute and occupational based skill checks, like the Fallout or D&D games rather than just social skill checks.



This could be setup differently. In an ideal world using this system, here's how I'd structure it.

1. [Ask about his physical condition.]
2. [Curiosity - Ask more about him personally.]

The dialog options would come with a toggle to choose between Supportive, Humorous, Neutral, Sarcastic or Insulting since this situation uses the Reactions set of tones and it would have a mouseover to see full text popup.

Curiosity is an idea I've had for a while to use as a character trait or skill on character creation that opens up more expository dialog with both positive and negative consequences for asking more questions. This doesn't allow for a toggle for tone.



1. [Try to resolve the problem peacefully.]
2. [Disparage Castillon.]
3. [Attack.]
4. [Curiosity - Try to learn more about Castillon and the Relic.]

Same as before in terms of using the Reactions set of tones.



1. [Agree with Merrill and admit it helped.]
2. [Disagree with Merrill and claim it's worse in the long run.]
3. [Mage - Point out it's a Demon, not a Spirit.]
4. [Blood Mage/Curiosity - Press Merrill for more details and information.]

In this particular example though, rather than using the Reaction set of tones, you'd be using the Outlook set for the toggles instead.

So, Idealist, Pragmatist, Realist, Cynic & Anarchist.

This would actually work with a voice better than it would silent if the method of delivery is cinematic over abstract or text box, but it would be hell to record all the VA for it I think.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 02 novembre 2011 - 01:42 .

[FASherman]

The beauty of it is that it isn't really that difficult to implement.

Your ACTIONS would be based on one of 5 possible REACTIONS
How those actions are VOICED is based on one of 5 possible OUTLOOKS
Your relationship potentials are defined by how you view relationships. The Isabela threesomes in DA:O and DA2 are clearly a Hedonist option. That personality attribute gets defined on a few items:
1. Number of actively pursued relationships with Companions. (I would allow multiples)
2. Number of "one night stands" with NPCs (I'd scatter a few potentials in there)
3. Brothel use - number of time, "menu selections", etc.

[esper]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

That is actually a pretty brilliant, albeit difficult system to implement.

While the system itself is fairly simple, putting the amount of writing/VA involved into that many different reactions in dialogue, let alone what it could influence narratively, would be a logistical nightmare.

Also, I think it would be interesting to see NPCs not be fixed points, but have the possibility of changing (see the hardening of Allistair and Leliana in DAO, or possibly the change of Anders as DA2 progressed). This would show how your interactions and personality affected those around you. If anyone thinks the personality of the people around you, particularly your leaders or close friends, don't affect you, try taking a Psych 101 class.

The problem is that it is a  game. I liked the rival and friendship system because the affecting your companions is gruadually which is much more realistic while hardning Alistar and Leliana was deeply unrealistic. You don't just say one line to your friends and then they hange their personality. While I initially dislike point systems, I have come to think it is the best games can do.
It was not just Anders, all where different on rival than they were on friendship with Varric properly being the one affacted least.
I don't think the system is perfect, but it is a step in the right direction.

[FASherman]

esper wrote...
The problem is that it is a  game. I liked the rival and friendship system because the affecting your companions is gruadually which is much more realistic while hardning Alistar and Leliana was deeply unrealistic. You don't just say one line to your friends and then they hange their personality. While I initially dislike point systems, I have come to think it is the best games can do.
It was not just Anders, all where different on rival than they were on friendship with Varric properly being the one affacted least.
I don't think the system is perfect, but it is a step in the right direction.

Both are realistic. Sometimes, someone is trying hard to be somethingt they're not and with one conversation, you give them permission to be themselves. Some people genuinely change over time and some will never change. Examples:

Leliana - you didn't "harden" her, you gave her permission to be true self.
Isabela - changes over time.
Sebastian - will never change.
Fenris - potential to change is limited

[esper]

FASherman wrote...

esper wrote...
The problem is that it is a  game. I liked the rival and friendship system because the affecting your companions is gruadually which is much more realistic while hardning Alistar and Leliana was deeply unrealistic. You don't just say one line to your friends and then they hange their personality. While I initially dislike point systems, I have come to think it is the best games can do.
It was not just Anders, all where different on rival than they were on friendship with Varric properly being the one affacted least.
I don't think the system is perfect, but it is a step in the right direction.

Both are realistic. Sometimes, someone is trying hard to be somethingt they're not and with one conversation, you give them permission to be themselves. Some people genuinely change over time and some will never change. Examples:

Leliana - you didn't "harden" her, you gave her permission to be true self.
Isabela - changes over time.
Sebastian - will never change.
Fenris - potential to change is limited

I can buy it with Leliana, but not with Alistar, because Leliana was trying to be something she was not while Alistar just isn't selfish. In fact I will say that by hardning Alistar you are trying to encourge him to be something he is not.
(Also Leliana is a trained spy, she is used to putting on mask's, so she can pretend to change personalites without actually changing them if she so want).

And yes I agree that it is different with the companions system depending on personality of the companion which I like. But there is a difference in rival and friendship Sebastian, rival is more willing to sacrifice people to regain his throne (ie. they would die honerbly) wheras friended says that he would never do such a thing (Banter with Aveline). I think Varric is the one who doesn't change so much over time.
 
But I have come to accept that a game will never be a hundred procent realistic because people have to many variables in their communication with each other, a game would never be able to track them all, so in the end I have come to prefer a point system where I can at least see where I am on the scale over random lines which gives me no hint what so ever.