384 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

GodWood wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...
The whole voiced protagonist thing is a hindrance to my role-playing, but it appeals to the masses who do not want to read or think about what they are saying--essentially, non-Bioware fans. The developers are catering to the indifferent.

Ah this old falsehood.

[sarcasm]God how I missed this.[/sarcasm]

It's really not that outlandish a claim.

The average casual gamer prefers having their character voiced and having the game be more 'cinematic' as opposed to having to read and have the game as less cinematic.

For people who enjoy the voiced protaganist and don't see themselves as 'casuals' I'd imagine they just don't mind sacrficing a great deal of roleplaying freedom in favour of having the game be more cinematic.

I don't know. I enjoy reading just as much as anyone else but I also prefer the voiced protagonist. And I'm able to roleplay just fine. I don't think anything was sacrificed for me.

Though I might just be a unique case.

[esper]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

GodWood wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...
The whole voiced protagonist thing is a hindrance to my role-playing, but it appeals to the masses who do not want to read or think about what they are saying--essentially, non-Bioware fans. The developers are catering to the indifferent.

Ah this old falsehood.

[sarcasm]God how I missed this.[/sarcasm]

It's really not that outlandish a claim.

The average casual gamer prefers having their character voiced and having the game be more 'cinematic' as opposed to having to read and have the game as less cinematic.

For people who enjoy the voiced protaganist and don't see themselves as 'casuals' I'd imagine they just don't mind sacrficing a great deal of roleplaying freedom in favour of having the game be more cinematic.

I don't know. I enjoy reading just as much as anyone else but I also prefer the voiced protagonist. And I'm able to roleplay just fine. I don't think anything was sacrificed for me.

Though I might just be a unique case.

For me it is a case of immersion. I don't mind a silent protagonist IF the rest of the world is silent. If the rest of the world is voiced it really breaks my immersion if the protagonist/pc isn't viced as well. 

[culletron1]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

GodWood wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...
The whole voiced protagonist thing is a hindrance to my role-playing, but it appeals to the masses who do not want to read or think about what they are saying--essentially, non-Bioware fans. The developers are catering to the indifferent.

Ah this old falsehood.

[sarcasm]God how I missed this.[/sarcasm]

It's really not that outlandish a claim.

The average casual gamer prefers having their character voiced and having the game be more 'cinematic' as opposed to having to read and have the game as less cinematic.

For people who enjoy the voiced protaganist and don't see themselves as 'casuals' I'd imagine they just don't mind sacrficing a great deal of roleplaying freedom in favour of having the game be more cinematic.

I don't know. I enjoy reading just as much as anyone else but I also prefer the voiced protagonist. And I'm able to roleplay just fine. I don't think anything was sacrificed for me.

Though I might just be a unique case.

Not unique... I feel the same way. Though I feel DA2 didn't implement it well at all... 

[whykikyouwhy]

@The Ethereal Writer Redux - Not so unique in that regard, no. I, too, did not feel that my ability to role-play was hindered or made lacking by a voiced protagonist. Sure, Hawke was on loan, as any video game character is (even those that I create for myself in-game), but all the aspects and details of Hawke beyond the sound and timbre and pitch of her voice, including how I perceive her dialogue is intended to come across, is mine to claim as my own.

[philippe willaume]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@The Ethereal Writer Redux - Not so unique in that regard, no. I, too, did not feel that my ability to role-play was hindered or made lacking by a voiced protagonist. Sure, Hawke was on loan, as any video game character is (even those that I create for myself in-game), but all the aspects and details of Hawke beyond the sound and timbre and pitch of her voice, including how I perceive her dialogue is intended to come across, is mine to claim as my own.

Hello
May be it is the way it is in DA:2
the voiced protagonist did works for me in ME and ME2. it felt good to tell the EM to stuff it very time i could (and it affect the ending)

That being said a personality counter of what you do through the game like the paragon/renegade in ME.(point gained in quest or dialogue like r/f but for the player)

That could open dialog option or at least affect how others perceives/react to you.

It would have been great to have pro-mage/pro-templar counter and being told by Meredith, provided that it can give some influence on the out come of the game/subplot or even quest.

Phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 02 novembre 2011 - 03:43 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@The Ethereal Writer Redux - Not so unique in that regard, no. I, too, did not feel that my ability to role-play was hindered or made lacking by a voiced protagonist. Sure, Hawke was on loan, as any video game character is (even those that I create for myself in-game), but all the aspects and details of Hawke beyond the sound and timbre and pitch of her voice, including how I perceive her dialogue is intended to come across, is mine to claim as my own.

You mean like opening a swiss bank account for a Prince from far far away to deposit the money during the plot jump? WoW I guess you are the only player that concious during that "black out" period.

And here're the aspects and detals that made Hawke not mine to claim as my own.

1. The story is set in the past. By this logic, Hawke already became a Champion and knew everything back then. I, on the other hand have no knowledge of such past.

2. Hawke is "gone" from the moment Varric was dragged to the interrogation room until Cassandra left the building. I, on the other hand cannot be "gone" because if I'm gone too then how am I suppose to "re-living" the past of a character called BioWare's Hawke?

3. Hawke action and behaviour was driven by Varric throughout all the plot jumps like making friends with people who you never met and finding things that belong to strangers to you but not to Hawke.

4. There more than one instances where Hawke dare to open his mouth without my approval like, "We go South" at the prologue. My Warden was forced to be a Grey Warden but never in his entire life blurt out words on his own. What Hawke did is what we usually term as Out of Character. One of the biggest sin in  D&D RPG PnP and all the cRPGs. 

[esper]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@The Ethereal Writer Redux - Not so unique in that regard, no. I, too, did not feel that my ability to role-play was hindered or made lacking by a voiced protagonist. Sure, Hawke was on loan, as any video game character is (even those that I create for myself in-game), but all the aspects and details of Hawke beyond the sound and timbre and pitch of her voice, including how I perceive her dialogue is intended to come across, is mine to claim as my own.

You mean like opening a swiss bank account for a Prince from far far away to deposit the money during the plot jump? WoW I guess you are the only player that concious during that "black out" period.

And here're the aspects and detals that made Hawke not mine to claim as my own.

1. The story is set in the past. By this logic, Hawke already became a Champion and knew everything back then. I, on the other hand have no knowledge of such past.

2. Hawke is "gone" from the moment Varric was dragged to the interrogation room until Cassandra left the building. I, on the other hand cannot be "gone" because if I'm gone too then how am I suppose to "re-living" the past of a character called BioWare's Hawke?

3. Hawke action and behaviour was driven by Varric throughout all the plot jumps like making friends with people who you never met and finding things that belong to strangers to you but not to Hawke.

4. There more than one instances where Hawke dare to open his mouth without my approval like, "We go South" at the prologue. My Warden was forced to be a Grey Warden but never in his entire life blurt out words on his own. What Hawke did is what we usually term as Out of Character. One of the biggest sin in  D&D RPG PnP and all the cRPGs. 

It is not out of any of my Hawkes characters. I work within the rule of the game and the rule for hawke says that in the instances where the line is too short or too unimportant my Hawke says something according to
the base personality that I have chosen. That does not make her any less my character. 
None of my Hawke is the same and all of them is doing stuff doing the three years time skip (I do wish that the time skips had been shorter, but that is another case). 

And in fact we know that Hawke will be champion before Hawke knows it, since Hawke is not aware of the frame.  

[R0vena]

To each their own. I don't mind my characters opening mouth without my permission if (in my opinion) it is consistent with their personality - and in DA 2 it was (for me, at least).
I understand players who don't allow their heroes even sneeze without their approval, however (no, it is not sarcasm, in TW I myself sometimes wished Geralt would shut up or say something different).
So I had no problems role-playing my Hawkes - all eight of them.

Modifié par R0vena, 02 novembre 2011 - 03:59 .

[whykikyouwhy]

@Sacred_Fantasy - I don't see anything as being out of character, or really, as being anything different from DA:O in that there is a particular story being told, a particular goal to be met. In DA:O, you have to stop the Blight. Did you feel that your character joining the Wardens was OOC? Did you feel that the Warden saying yes to battling the Archdemon was OOC? Those are expected milestones in the game. So Hawke opting to go South in the Prologue is also a milestone - a way to move the character from point A to point B. DMs do the same thing for players at the PnP table - there are prompts, you are gently put in situations where you have to decide a certain way in order to get the action ramped up.

I don't feel that any of that removed my ability to come up with motivation for Hawke, with what she believed or how she felt about things in Kirkwall and the companions who fought at her side. But that's just my take on the game and how I played it.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

esper wrote...
 

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@The Ethereal Writer Redux - Not so unique in that regard, no. I, too, did not feel that my ability to role-play was hindered or made lacking by a voiced protagonist. Sure, Hawke was on loan, as any video game character is (even those that I create for myself in-game), but all the aspects and details of Hawke beyond the sound and timbre and pitch of her voice, including how I perceive her dialogue is intended to come across, is mine to claim as my own.

You mean like opening a swiss bank account for a Prince from far far away to deposit the money during the plot jump? WoW I guess you are the only player that concious during that "black out" period.

And here're the aspects and detals that made Hawke not mine to claim as my own.

1. The story is set in the past. By this logic, Hawke already became a Champion and knew everything back then. I, on the other hand have no knowledge of such past.

2. Hawke is "gone" from the moment Varric was dragged to the interrogation room until Cassandra left the building. I, on the other hand cannot be "gone" because if I'm gone too then how am I suppose to "re-living" the past of a character called BioWare's Hawke?

3. Hawke action and behaviour was driven by Varric throughout all the plot jumps like making friends with people who you never met and finding things that belong to strangers to you but not to Hawke.

4. There more than one instances where Hawke dare to open his mouth without my approval like, "We go South" at the prologue. My Warden was forced to be a Grey Warden but never in his entire life blurt out words on his own. What Hawke did is what we usually term as Out of Character. One of the biggest sin in  D&D RPG PnP and all the cRPGs. 

It is not out of any of my Hawkes characters. I work within the rule of the game and the rule for hawke says that in the instances where the line is too short or too unimportant my Hawke says something according to
the base personality that I have chosen. That does not make her any less my character. 
None of my Hawke is the same and all of them is doing stuff doing the three years time skip (I do wish that the time skips had been shorter, but that is another case).

 

Then you better left with nothing to participate in dialogues since they're many shorts dialogues and the long ones doesn't mattered at all.

esper wrote...


And in fact we know that Hawke will be champion before Hawke knows it, since Hawke is not aware of the frame.  

I'm not talking about the time frame in the past. I'm talking about the time frame in present days. You and I both live in the present. The time where Varric was interrogated by Cassandra. Both you and I are watching that scenes all the time and aware of what happening. By that time, Hawke should have all the memory of the past. You and I on the hand have zero knowledge of such things.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 02 novembre 2011 - 04:10 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@Sacred_Fantasy - I don't see anything as being out of character, or really, as being anything different from DA:O in that there is a particular story being told, a particular goal to be met. In DA:O, you have to stop the Blight. Did you feel that your character joining the Wardens was OOC?

Nope.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Did you feel that the Warden saying yes to battling the Archdemon was OOC?

What my warden said is, " I don't want to become a Grey Warden!". I choose that option so I know what I'm talking as the character. It was Duncan and my father who insisted that I joined and I understand the reason so "yes" as the answer is not an OOC. What OOC is things that I don't pick and choose like Hawke did.

whykikyouwhy wrote...


Those are expected milestones in the game. So Hawke opting to go South in the Prologue is also a milestone - a way to move the character from point A to point B.

That's bullsh*t. or plain excuse. If you can't think a dialogue option then don't blurt it out without player input.

whykikyouwhy wrote...



DMs do the same thing for players at the PnP table - there are prompts, you are gently put in situations where you have to decide a certain way in order to get the action ramped up.

DMs never talk for you. They let you choose the best choices. Hawke did not give such option at all.

whykikyouwhy wrote...
I don't feel that any of that removed my ability to come up with motivation for Hawke, with what she believed or how she felt about things in Kirkwall and the companions who fought at her side. But that's just my take on the game and how I played it.

You can ignore the OOC but I can't. If I cant control my own character then why give the option at all? Why not simply make Hawke a definite set Character like Assasin Creed's Ezio where you have no influence over the dialogue? Why try to control my character through AI or prewritten script?

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 02 novembre 2011 - 04:26 .

[megski]

I don't mind the voice protagonist either, and for the most part Hawke says something along the lines of what I think he/she should say except:

Meagan says: I love you too, Anders.
Hawke says: I'll drown us both in blood to keep us safe!
Meagan says: WTF?!

[megski]

megski wrote...

I don't mind the voice protagonist either, and for the most part Hawke says something along the lines of what I think he/she should say except:

Meagan says: I love you too, Anders.
Hawke says: I'll drown us both in blood to keep us safe!
Meagan says: WTF?!

Edit:  And I do want to add too, since I think I've just been lurking in this thread, that I had a hard time trying to role play as well.  I was really optomistic the very first time I played the game and it seemed like with every motivation I personified on Hawke got dashed to hell.  "Hey, I'll become rich and protect my sister."    "Hey, that's ok, I'll just look out for my mom."    "Oh well, at least I've still got Anders."    There were lots of frowny faces for me and they just got worse the more I played.  Then I beat the game and it was a >:0 face.  I haven't felt nerd rage like that...ever.  lol.  

[Verly]

I've never had a problem with role-playing DA2 but then I always use ladyhawke. I've been able to pick between all three tones in one game without it sounding off. I've done it many times with many different Hawkes.

maybe the problem is the male voice for Hawke, and I can't play a male Hawke. I've tried multiple times. (one of my favorite origins in the first game is the city elf and I can't get past the same voice actor that does male Hawke is the rapist from origins) so maybe it's a different experience when you play as a guy. I'm sorry if those of you who play the Male Hawke did not get the same experience.

[jlb524]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

GodWood wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...
The whole voiced protagonist thing is a hindrance to my role-playing, but it appeals to the masses who do not want to read or think about what they are saying--essentially, non-Bioware fans. The developers are catering to the indifferent.

Ah this old falsehood.

[sarcasm]God how I missed this.[/sarcasm]

It's really not that outlandish a claim.

The average casual gamer prefers having their character voiced and having the game be more 'cinematic' as opposed to having to read and have the game as less cinematic.

For people who enjoy the voiced protaganist and don't see themselves as 'casuals' I'd imagine they just don't mind sacrficing a great deal of roleplaying freedom in favour of having the game be more cinematic.

I don't know. I enjoy reading just as much as anyone else but I also prefer the voiced protagonist. And I'm able to roleplay just fine. I don't think anything was sacrificed for me.

Though I might just be a unique case.

No, I'm the same.

I think the error here is that less-cinematic and more 'reading' necessarily means more roleplaying freedom.

I didn't feel as if Baldur's Gate 2 was any 'more free' than some of the voiced games (DA2).  BW games are pretty limiting in general as far as roleplaying freedom goes.

[bleetman]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't know. I enjoy reading just as much as anyone else but I also prefer the voiced protagonist. And I'm able to roleplay just fine. I don't think anything was sacrificed for me.

Though I might just be a unique case.

More or less sums up my own stance as well, really. I would've prefered having the exact response visible before picking a conversation option, but that's more of an issue with the dialogue wheel rather than the protaganist being voiced.

I personally had a far more frustrating time trying to coherently justify the order in which I did quests, and the fact I couldn't just turn down several of them in the first place. That made RPing a little iffy at times, to me. Whether or not my character spoke was neither here nor there.

[Gunderic]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@Sacred_Fantasy - I don't see anything as being out of character, or really, as being anything different from DA:O in that there is a particular story being told, a particular goal to be met. In DA:O, you have to stop the Blight. Did you feel that your character joining the Wardens was OOC? Did you feel that the Warden saying yes to battling the Archdemon was OOC?

It can be. But then the open-to-all-who-are-skilled policy of the Grey Wardens is there for a reason: to let the player decide on different character builds. And the darkspawn is a chaotic evil enemy for a reason: any kind of personality type would probably want to kill them, at least in self-defense, if not hunt them down deliberately. As 'Hawke', I have to choose one controversial side over another even if would want no part in it; I have to resort to larceny or murder to get into a city I see no particular reason to go to. I have to, and this I find particularly funny, tempt faith again by going on a stupid expedition that could end in death. I have to oppose the Qunari even if I do not wish to.

Man, Dragon Age 2 sucks.

[jlb524]

Gunderic wrote...

It can be. But then the open-to-all-who-are-skilled policy of the Grey Wardens is there for a reason: to let the player decide on different character builds. And the darkspawn is a chaotic evil enemy for a reason: any kind of personality type would probably want to kill them, at least in self-defense, if not hunt them down deliberately. As 'Hawke', I have to choose one controversial side over another even if would want no part in it; I have to resort to larceny or murder to get into a city I see no particular reason to go to. I have to, and this I find particularly funny, tempt faith again by going on a stupid expedition that could end in death. I have to oppose the Qunari even if I do not wish to.

Man, Dragon Age 2 sucks.

It's not really any different.  You not only have to accept your fate as a 'Grey Warden' but you are also railroaded into stopping the Blight in one specific way (travel around Ferelden and gather treaties).  Why do I have to seek out the Dalish, dwarves, etc.?  Why not seek aid from Orlais?

As 'the Warden' you have to choose one king in Orzammar over the other.  You have to deal with the mess in the Circle.  You have to waste time looking for some supposed magical ashes that may cure the Arl of Redcliffe.

[tmp7704]

jlb524 wrote...

It's not really any different.  You not only have to accept your fate as a 'Grey Warden' but you are also railroaded into stopping the Blight in one specific way (travel around Ferelden and gather treaties).  Why do I have to seek out the Dalish, dwarves, etc.?  Why not seek aid from Orlais?

You have treaties which guarantee the help of the Dalish, dwarves, etc. You have nothing in terms of such leverage to utilize in Orlais.

You 'can' seek aid from Orlais in Sylvius'esque way of playing the game -- you can imagine your character went to Orlais instead, told the people there "the Blight is coming!", they answered "we know! you a grunt warden? Here, polish these armours" and that was the end of any effective influence he/she could have on the outcome.

[AlexXIV]

The Orlesians don't have the desire to stop the blight from wiping out ferelden anyway. They would actually welcome a weakened Ferelden so they can occupy it again. It's only 20 years after they got kicked out so I guess they have not changed into the UNO who respects every country's autonomy yet.

The difference of the DA:O railroad is that it makes sense. You can think about it and say ok, it was a railroad but it was the only way. In DA2 you have no obligations and still can only act along a strict storyline. That's odd. Because for Hawke at the point he/she gets the treasure from the Deep Roads, the world is open. Since they are rich. But still he/she is acting as if he works for the city guards or the viscount. Which is not the case.

[whykikyouwhy]

AlexXIV wrote...

The Orlesians don't have the desire to stop the blight from wiping out ferelden anyway. They would actually welcome a weakened Ferelden so they can occupy it again. It's only 20 years after they got kicked out so I guess they have not changed into the UNO who respects every country's autonomy yet.

The difference of the DA:O railroad is that it makes sense. You can think about it and say ok, it was a railroad but it was the only way. In DA2 you have no obligations and still can only act along a strict storyline. That's odd. Because for Hawke at the point he/she gets the treasure from the Deep Roads, the world is open. Since they are rich. But still he/she is acting as if he works for the city guards or the viscount. Which is not the case.

I would have to say that DA2 does make sense. The expedition was about earning money to get the family someplace safe and stable - to buy back the estate. So Act 1 ends with that mission handled and completed. By Act 2, it's already established that Aveline is part of the City Guard and rising in the ranks - Hawke can do things for her, help her out, etc, out of friendship or obligation, or what have you. But the bond between Hawke and Aveline, however you want to look at it, is established by this point. As for the Viscount, Hawke receives many a task and summons because (s)he is a figure of influence and note by Act 2 - a refugee who wrangled his/her way into the City, survived an expedition, vanquished many a foe and returned with some wealth? Heck, I'd know who (s)he was and would probably take notice wherever (s)he went.

The PC goals in DA2 are different - they're not the same impending doom of DA:O. There's no obvious big bad threat like a Blight or an Archdemon, but there are still attainable goals and motivations within the story, and, for me, plenty of role-playing to do in between.

[Ryzaki]

The whole thing is subjective.

I found BG2 to be far more highly roleplayable than DA2. Heck I found ME2 more roleplayable than DA2.

I personally didn't find DA2 that roleplayable at all not more than Persona 3. Which is just how I felt about it. *shrugs* YMMV and all that.

[TheRealJayDee]

tmp7704 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

It's not really any different.  You not only have to accept your fate as a 'Grey Warden' but you are also railroaded into stopping the Blight in one specific way (travel around Ferelden and gather treaties).  Why do I have to seek out the Dalish, dwarves, etc.?  Why not seek aid from Orlais?

You have treaties which guarantee the help of the Dalish, dwarves, etc. You have nothing in terms of such leverage to utilize in Orlais.

AlexXIV wrote...
The difference of the DA:O railroad is that it makes sense. You can think about it and say ok, it was a railroad but it was the only way. In DA2 you have no obligations and still can only act along a strict storyline. That's odd. Because for Hawke at the point he/she gets the treasure from the Deep Roads, the world is open. Since they are rich. But still he/she is acting as if he works for the city guards or the viscount. Which is not the case.

Yes and yes.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Morroian wrote...

While the range of role playing isn't as wide as DAO its perfectly possible to role play a character in depth within the limitations of the system. 

The limitations are inadequately documented.  There's no way to know when the game is going to render your character incoherent.

At least in DAO when that happened you could see it coming.