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[esper]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

esper wrote...
I think you do not understand the concept of frame. Cassansdra's motice is the reason why the story is told. Hawke do no relieve his past, hawke does not exits in the frame.And Hawke is not the player. When we as plaeyer 'hear' the story Hawke is in hiding an no where in sight
 varric and cassandra (and to some extent the player) does exits in the frame, thus Varric in game can sometimes break the fourth wall. 
Hawke in game has not way of knowing the future. Hawke has his or hers goal in the story and the have zero to do with Cassandra as Hawke doesn't even know of Cassandra's existence. The motivation of the frame is not always the same motivation of the characters in the story in fact I have rarely seen a frame in which the motivations of the frame is the same as the characters in the story, usually there is some clash between the two.

That's precisely why I mentioned for months why DA 2 narration is not suitable for role-play. You are not the character. You are no one.
 

esper wrote...

I disagree with everything you say about the companions, but if you hate it so much I cannot see why you should do anything, but put the game away, leave the forum and spend your time on games you do enjoy. wouldn't that make you happier.

First of all, I am waiting for DA 3 news.
Secondly, I am tired of talking about DA2 but I cannot allow people like you trying to influence BioWare or others into thinking that what you like represent what majority wants. All this problem is partly caused by feedback by people like you who turn DA into what is now. If DA2 is so great then why cause so much havoc all over the world? Why all the mixed reaction as opposed to Origins? Why DA 2 isn't worth  to be considered "RPG of decade" as RPG Gamer claimed?
And lastly, I do play the game I enjoy the most at the moment and I don't intend to post anything until I read ridiculous comments as if they're facts. 

I seroisly don't understand you, what you currently do won't influence bioware since you are just yelling. Try the constructive critiszim thread or at least try to be constructive in your critism.

[Verly]

I do not role-play myself as a character..ever...to me that is not what role-playing is. I am never my character. I am always the person playing the game. the way DA2 runs is only a problem if the person is dead set into making themselves in the game.. role-playing how they would act in any given situation...to me that limits replayability. if that is what role-playing is to someone then yes, DA2 is not for them. but putting yourself into the character is not the only definition of role play.

role playing is also creating a character and role-playing them. whether the last name is set or not, I still create a different PC every time I restart a game. I am not a dwarf, an elf, or a princess cous cous, I am not Hawke, I am not Shepard, I am not the vault dweller from Fall out 3, nor the courier from Fall out NV. and I have multiple CPs of each.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

esper wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

esper wrote...
I think you do not understand the concept of frame. Cassansdra's motice is the reason why the story is told. Hawke do no relieve his past, hawke does not exits in the frame.And Hawke is not the player. When we as plaeyer 'hear' the story Hawke is in hiding an no where in sight
 varric and cassandra (and to some extent the player) does exits in the frame, thus Varric in game can sometimes break the fourth wall. 
Hawke in game has not way of knowing the future. Hawke has his or hers goal in the story and the have zero to do with Cassandra as Hawke doesn't even know of Cassandra's existence. The motivation of the frame is not always the same motivation of the characters in the story in fact I have rarely seen a frame in which the motivations of the frame is the same as the characters in the story, usually there is some clash between the two.

That's precisely why I mentioned for months why DA 2 narration is not suitable for role-play. You are not the character. You are no one.
 

esper wrote...

I disagree with everything you say about the companions, but if you hate it so much I cannot see why you should do anything, but put the game away, leave the forum and spend your time on games you do enjoy. wouldn't that make you happier.

First of all, I am waiting for DA 3 news.
Secondly, I am tired of talking about DA2 but I cannot allow people like you trying to influence BioWare or others into thinking that what you like represent what majority wants. All this problem is partly caused by feedback by people like you who turn DA into what is now. If DA2 is so great then why cause so much havoc all over the world? Why all the mixed reaction as opposed to Origins? Why DA 2 isn't worth  to be considered "RPG of decade" as RPG Gamer claimed?
And lastly, I do play the game I enjoy the most at the moment and I don't intend to post anything until I read ridiculous comments as if they're facts. 

I seroisly don't understand you, what you currently do won't influence bioware since you are just yelling. Try the constructive critiszim thread or at least try to be constructive in your critism.

You are right. It's not going to help. I just cant help loosing my temper when I remember all the frustration trying to roleplay Hawke as my character. I don't understand one thing. Hawke did mentioned, "I hate being an imaginary character inside someone's world." That's the only one short comments that actually mirror everything I felt as Hawke in DA2 world. BioWare knew that, like they knew "swooping is bad." Why they still insist on doing this is beyond me. Why they marketed description like, " You are the refuge from Krikwall. You will rise to power. How you become the champion of Kirkwall is up to you bla bla..."  is beyond me. Everything is about you being the character of DA2. And yet???

Anyway, Thanks for your input. You are right about this. I apologize. I guess I need to take my break from the forum now.

[Zjarcal]

Verly wrote...

I do not role-play myself as a character..ever...to me that is not what role-playing is. I am never my character. I am always the person playing the game. the way DA2 runs is only a problem if the person is dead set into making themselves in the game.. role-playing how they would act in any given situation...to me that limits replayability. if that is what role-playing is to someone then yes, DA2 is not for them. but putting yourself into the character is not the only definition of role play.

role playing is also creating a character and role-playing them. whether the last name is set or not, I still create a different PC every time I restart a game. I am not a dwarf, an elf, or a princess cous cous, I am not Hawke, I am not Shepard, I am not the vault dweller from Fall out 3, nor the courier from Fall out NV. and I have multiple CPs of each.

Same here.

I don't have anything against the "self insertion" type of role-playing, but it's something I have zero desire of ever trying.

[Ryzaki]

Rojahar wrote...
You don't have the option to not accept Jowan's proposal and not talk to the First Enchanter. You're forced to either help him, or turn him in, but you can't shrug and try to pretend it never happened, when that's the most likely reaction. You're forced along by the narrative. You aren't allowed you run off when Duncan lets you wander freely in the beginning. Why can't my character have tried to kill Duncan in his sleep while they travelled to Ostagar? Who's to say my character doesn't just want to be a wandering drunk? And resources to travel? I seem to have infinite resources to travel back and forth across the whole country of Ferelden as much as I please. If you insist on playing a character who has no motivation to be in Kirkwall whatsoever, then that's really your own fault and choice. Heading to Orlais is no more suicidal than heading into the Deep Roads. That's even implying I want to go to Orlais. You seem fond of putting words in other peoples' mouths. Maybe my Warden wants to take a cheap boat to Kirkwall and let Ferelden deal with itself. You simply choose to invent motivations and say things "would" happen for DAO, yet choose to be difficult, unimaginative, and uncooperative for DA2 as my examples for DAO.

You do however have the option of telling the Enchanter what Jowan plans on doing and screwing him over. Ignoring it is also pointless like trying to ignore Peatrice (though it wouldn't have been bad to have a scene where you're told to speak to the FE regardless after speaking to Jowan). You're moving goal posts. First you want to compare the warden leaving Fereldan to the blight to Hawke leaving Kirkwall now you want to compare orgins? I could just as easily say why doesn't Hawke turn around and leave Kirkwall after he/she realize it's full to the brim and the only way in is to become a criminal. 

Running off in the beginning would end up with a knife in your stomach. Attempting to kill Duncan would get you killed. 

Heading to Orlais on your own is vastly different than going into the deep roads with a group of well trained fighters with a map and a guide. 

Again how is your Warden going to afford said boat? Jobs? You're gonna stay in Fereldan long enough to work (and since you're insisting on not helping the blight being a warden isn't gonna get you any brownie points other than people trying to kill the warden from the bounty and on his/her own he/she is *not* going to last long). 

And I was not talking about *your* warden. Merely the whole "well what if the Warden wanted to head for the Orlesian wardens." arguement. 

But yeah we're being equally difficult and imaginative. All right. What exactly is forcing Hawke to stay in Kirkwall if he/she doesn't want to be there? Since my examples for the warden are apparently ridculous. 

And fond of putting words in other people's mouths? Forget this. I'm done. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 novembre 2011 - 11:59 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Ryzaki wrote...

You do however have the option of telling the Enchanter what Jowan plans on doing and screwing him over. Ignoring it is also pointless (though it wouldn't have been bad to have a scene where you're told to speak to the FE regardless after speaking to Jowan). 

Running off in the beginning would end up with a knife in your stomach. Attempting to kill Duncan would get you killed. 

Heading to Orlais on your own is vastly different than going into the deep roads with a group of well trained fighters with a map and a guide. 

Heading to Orlais, albeit alone, leaves the Warden the possibility of acquiring allies, finding assistance, being able to find sustenance/supplies/etc. Because it's the surface world, the known world. Yes, filled with risks, but familiar in some regard.

The Deep Roads is a complete unknown. Most dwarves don't venture there, and usually not without the appropriate backup. Even with 3 other people, however skilled, it's a big risk. Hawke and company would essentially be cut off from any resources other than what was packed in crates or bags. Plus, there are nasty, sharp-toothed, tainted, magical, altogether strange things in the Deep Roads. Thousands of new ways to die, really.

[Ryzaki]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
Heading to Orlais, albeit alone, leaves the Warden the possibility of acquiring allies, finding assistance, being able to find sustenance/supplies/etc. Because it's the surface world, the known world. Yes, filled with risks, but familiar in some regard.

The Deep Roads is a complete unknown. Most dwarves don't venture there, and usually not without the appropriate backup. Even with 3 other people, however skilled, it's a big risk. Hawke and company would essentially be cut off from any resources other than what was packed in crates or bags. Plus, there are nasty, sharp-toothed, tainted, magical, altogether strange things in the Deep Roads. Thousands of new ways to die, really.

All of those things that he/she'll already have if he/she went to the deeproads. And even better he/she isn't alone. 

It's not a complete unknown to the dwarves given the fact that you're given maps. You're following someone else's trail. That said yes it's a risk and there's plenty of nasties in the deep roads. There's plenty of nasties on the surface to. And what resources will the Warden have other than what he/she can carry on his/her back on the surfaceanyway? Unless he/she stays close to populatedareas (which will gve more of loghain's assassins ample time to strike) he/she will be pretty close to the conditions on the deep roads. Just with less spiders and darkspawn and darkness and company. 

[AlexXIV]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The Orlesians don't have the desire to stop the blight from wiping out ferelden anyway. They would actually welcome a weakened Ferelden so they can occupy it again. It's only 20 years after they got kicked out so I guess they have not changed into the UNO who respects every country's autonomy yet.

The difference of the DA:O railroad is that it makes sense. You can think about it and say ok, it was a railroad but it was the only way. In DA2 you have no obligations and still can only act along a strict storyline. That's odd. Because for Hawke at the point he/she gets the treasure from the Deep Roads, the world is open. Since they are rich. But still he/she is acting as if he works for the city guards or the viscount. Which is not the case.

I would have to say that DA2 does make sense. The expedition was about earning money to get the family someplace safe and stable - to buy back the estate. So Act 1 ends with that mission handled and completed. By Act 2, it's already established that Aveline is part of the City Guard and rising in the ranks - Hawke can do things for her, help her out, etc, out of friendship or obligation, or what have you. But the bond between Hawke and Aveline, however you want to look at it, is established by this point. As for the Viscount, Hawke receives many a task and summons because (s)he is a figure of influence and note by Act 2 - a refugee who wrangled his/her way into the City, survived an expedition, vanquished many a foe and returned with some wealth? Heck, I'd know who (s)he was and would probably take notice wherever (s)he went.

The PC goals in DA2 are different - they're not the same impending doom of DA:O. There's no obvious big bad threat like a Blight or an Archdemon, but there are still attainable goals and motivations within the story, and, for me, plenty of role-playing to do in between.

I don't say that there COULD not be reasons for Hawke to stay in Kirkwall. I am saying I would rather leave. Not only because I know how the story goes, but also because of simple practical reasons. The Blight in Ferelden is over, people rebuild and the Hawkes are actually Fereldans. The good news of the Hero of Ferelden and Alistair should also spread to Kirkwall so people can hope for a much better lot in Ferelden than in a templar domain. Especially if you are an apostate or have an apostate sister. You also assume Hawke cares for the Viscounts problems or Aveline's. If they are really good friends ok, but that's optional. Thing is you get to play more of a blank sheet character since you have no definded destiny. Yet it plays just as if you have. The game just assumes that despite all the riches Hawke still likes to go around kill stuff and risk their life for money they don't need. For what? To help Kirkwall which is a templar domain? I wouldn't know why any Fereldan citizen would stay in Kirkwall if they can afford the passage back and Hawke surely could afford it. Not to mention it would be Hawke's patriot duty to help restore Ferelden if he/she didn't have enough of it to stay and battle the blight like so many others. I am not saying there is no red thread through the plot of DA2, but it is very thin and you have to be very generous to even acknowledge it as such.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 03 novembre 2011 - 12:07 .

[Ryzaki]

Rojahar wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Rojahar wrote...
You don't have the option to not accept Jowan's proposal and not talk to the First Enchanter. You're forced to either help him, or turn him in, but you can't shrug and try to pretend it never happened, when that's the most likely reaction. You're forced along by the narrative. You aren't allowed you run off when Duncan lets you wander freely in the beginning. Why can't my character have tried to kill Duncan in his sleep while they travelled to Ostagar? Who's to say my character doesn't just want to be a wandering drunk? And resources to travel? I seem to have infinite resources to travel back and forth across the whole country of Ferelden as much as I please. If you insist on playing a character who has no motivation to be in Kirkwall whatsoever, then that's really your own fault and choice. Heading to Orlais is no more suicidal than heading into the Deep Roads. That's even implying I want to go to Orlais. You seem fond of putting words in other peoples' mouths. Maybe my Warden wants to take a cheap boat to Kirkwall and let Ferelden deal with itself. You simply choose to invent motivations and say things "would" happen for DAO, yet choose to be difficult, unimaginative, and uncooperative for DA2 as my examples for DAO.

You do however have the option of telling the Enchanter what Jowan plans on doing and screwing him over. Ignoring it is also pointless (though it wouldn't have been bad to have a scene where you're told to speak to the FE regardless after speaking to Jowan). 

Running off in the beginning would end up with a knife in your stomach. Attempting to kill Duncan would get you killed. 

Heading to Orlais on your own is vastly different than going into the deep roads with a group of well trained fighters with a map and a guide. 

Why can't I head to Kirkwall? Why should I head to Orlais? Who says I care about the Wardens? Who says I can't convince my party to head to Orlais? How would I get a knife in my stomach if I'm totally unaccompanied and Duncan is off somewhere else? That's like saying "Well, if you went back to Ferelden, someone would have killed you on your way back." You seem quick to invent explanations and motivations for why someone should follow the narrative in DAO, but refuse to accept (or invent, as you do with DAO) any motivation for wanting to stay in Kirkwall.

Saying that I have a choice between helping Jowan and turning him in is the same as saying Hawke has the choice to stay in Kirkwall because of friends, attachment to the city, having settled down and made a new life there, not caring about Ferelden, or caring about the mage/templar conflict like Anders. Wanting to go back to Ferelden is like not wanting anything to do with Jowan's plan, including not wanting to turn him in, choosing to stay neutral/apathetic.

Edited my post. You moved goalposts. Jowan is far more like Peatrice than leaving completely. Now if you really want to start a "well why didn't the warden do X?" I can list plenty of examples of "but thou must" in DA2 that don't involve leaving Kirkwall at all. 

Why did Hawke have to help Thrask with Grace and Co? 
Why did Hawke have to help Peatrice?
Why did Hawke have to side with the smugglers or mecenaries?
Why did Hawke have to let Bethany get dragged away by templars?
Why didn't Hawke physically stop Anders' scheme?
Why didn't Hawke tell Meredith about Anders?

I can go on all day if you want to move the goalposts. 

[Ryzaki]

Rojahar wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Rojahar wrote...
You don't have the option to not accept Jowan's proposal and not talk to the First Enchanter. You're forced to either help him, or turn him in, but you can't shrug and try to pretend it never happened, when that's the most likely reaction. You're forced along by the narrative. You aren't allowed you run off when Duncan lets you wander freely in the beginning. Why can't my character have tried to kill Duncan in his sleep while they travelled to Ostagar? Who's to say my character doesn't just want to be a wandering drunk? And resources to travel? I seem to have infinite resources to travel back and forth across the whole country of Ferelden as much as I please. If you insist on playing a character who has no motivation to be in Kirkwall whatsoever, then that's really your own fault and choice. Heading to Orlais is no more suicidal than heading into the Deep Roads. That's even implying I want to go to Orlais. You seem fond of putting words in other peoples' mouths. Maybe my Warden wants to take a cheap boat to Kirkwall and let Ferelden deal with itself. You simply choose to invent motivations and say things "would" happen for DAO, yet choose to be difficult, unimaginative, and uncooperative for DA2 as my examples for DAO.

You do however have the option of telling the Enchanter what Jowan plans on doing and screwing him over. Ignoring it is also pointless (though it wouldn't have been bad to have a scene where you're told to speak to the FE regardless after speaking to Jowan). 

Running off in the beginning would end up with a knife in your stomach. Attempting to kill Duncan would get you killed. 

Heading to Orlais on your own is vastly different than going into the deep roads with a group of well trained fighters with a map and a guide. 

Why can't I head to Kirkwall? Why should I head to Orlais? Who says I care about the Wardens? Who says I can't convince my party to head to Orlais? How would I get a knife in my stomach if I'm totally unaccompanied and Duncan is off somewhere else? That's like saying "Well, if you went back to Ferelden, someone would have killed you on your way back." You seem quick to invent explanations and motivations for why someone should follow the narrative in DAO, but refuse to accept (or invent, as you do with DAO) any motivation for wanting to stay in Kirkwall.

Saying that I have a choice between helping Jowan and turning him in is the same as saying Hawke has the choice to stay in Kirkwall because of friends, attachment to the city, having settled down and made a new life there, not caring about Ferelden, or caring about the mage/templar conflict like Anders. Wanting to go back to Ferelden is like not wanting anything to do with Jowan's plan, including not wanting to turn him in, choosing to stay neutral/apathetic.

...*reads the bolded and facepalms*


Yes I suppose using evidence from DAO of people being ordered to kill/apprehend you (Hi there Blooming rose guys with you warden signs and hi there Zevran and Hi ther guard and hi there people in lothering) is inventing things. 

I'm seriously done. Whatever. Obviously there was a bounty on Hawke's head. How stupid of me to forget. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 novembre 2011 - 12:11 .

[whykikyouwhy]

AlexXIV wrote...

I don't say that there COULD not be reasons for Hawke to stay in Kirkwall. I am saying I would rather leave. Not only because I know how the story goes, but also because of simple practical reasons. The Blight in Ferelden is over, people rebuild and the Hawkes are actually Fereldans. The good news of the Hero of Ferelden and Alistair should also spread to Kirkwall so people can hope for a much better lot in Ferelden than in a templar domain. Especially if you are an apostate or have an apostate sister. You also assume Hawke cares for the Viscounts problems or Aveline's. If they are really good friends ok, but that's optional. Thing is you get to play more of a blank sheet character since you have no definded destiny. Yet it plays just as if you have. The game just assumes that despite all the riches Hawke still likes to go around kill stuff and risk their life for money they don't need. For what? To help Kirkwall which is a templar domain? I wouldn't know why any Fereldan citizen would stay in Kirkwall if they can afford the passage back and Hawke surely could afford it. Not to mention it would be Hawke's patriot duty to help restore Ferelden if he/she didn't have enough of it to stay and battle the blight like so many others. I am not saying there is no red thread through the plot of DA2, but it is very thin and you have to be very generous to even acknowledge it as such.

It would have been nice to leave in the very least to explore, sure. And sure, maybe Hawke would have wanted to help rebuild, or felt a certain kinship with his/her home. But Lothering was gone - that would be a lot to rebuild. Perhaps Hawke took root in Kirkwall - it's his/her mother's hometown, there is still family there, friends or loved ones may reside there, etc. So too, many refugees did decide to hang their hats in Kirkwall - there are the miners to consider. I'm sure there were others. When the Blight came to town and people fled, many probably opted to not look back because it was too painful or what have you. So Hawke may very well just have made a new physical home, but kept the old one is his/her heart.

Kirkwall is a small little world of its own. DA2 is a concentrated chapter. But even with the vast map of Thedas in DA:O, you didn't have free reign to go wherever you pleased. You had set areas of the map to visit - some would open up when the Warden did certain things or chatted some people up, some became inaccessible when certain events fell into place.

[hoorayforicecream]

Ryzaki wrote...

All of those things that he/she'll already have if he/she went to the deeproads. And even better he/she isn't alone. 

It's not a complete unknown to the dwarves given the fact that you're given maps. You're following someone else's trail. That said yes it's a risk and there's plenty of nasties in the deep roads. There's plenty of nasties on the surface to. And what resources will the Warden have other than what he/she can carry on his/her back on the surfaceanyway? Unless he/she stays close to populatedareas (which will gve more of loghain's assassins ample time to strike) he/she will be pretty close to the conditions on the deep roads. Just with less spiders and darkspawn and darkness and company. 

Traveling to Orlais is a lot safer than traveling the Deep Roads. If it wasn't, then the successful Deep Roads expeditions wouldn't be so profitable - lots more people travel between nations than travel the Deep Roads. As for what resources... the Warden goes to Orlais, then comes back with an army and more Wardens at his/her back. The treaties weren't solely for Ferelden to band together to fight the Blight; the Blights are a continental-scale threat that all of Thedas agrees to band together to fight. The previous Blights required the combined might of Orlais and Tevinter to defeat.

As for Loghain's assassins... Loghain believes that all of the wardens died at Ostagar, until the Warden actually starts making his/her presence known in Ferelden. There wouldn't be any assassins until it's too late and he discovers there's an army entering Ferelden. In that case, he'd get crushed anyway, because he'd be fighting a two-front war - the darkspawn within Ferelden's borders and the combined army of the other nations on the outside, and he wouldn't have the support of the elves, mages or dwarves. He'd have to either join with the allied forces to fight the Blight, or get ground up into dogmeat between the opposing forces.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 03 novembre 2011 - 12:19 .

[Ryzaki]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

All of those things that he/she'll already have if he/she went to the deeproads. And even better he/she isn't alone. 

It's not a complete unknown to the dwarves given the fact that you're given maps. You're following someone else's trail. That said yes it's a risk and there's plenty of nasties in the deep roads. There's plenty of nasties on the surface to. And what resources will the Warden have other than what he/she can carry on his/her back on the surfaceanyway? Unless he/she stays close to populatedareas (which will gve more of loghain's assassins ample time to strike) he/she will be pretty close to the conditions on the deep roads. Just with less spiders and darkspawn and darkness and company. 

Traveling to Orlais is a lot safer than traveling the Deep Roads. If it wasn't, then the Deep Roads expeditions wouldn't be so profitable - lots more people travel between nations than travel the Deep Roads. As for what resources... the Warden goes to Orlais, then comes back with an army and more Wardens at his/her back. The treaties weren't solely for Ferelden to band together to fight the Blight; the Blights are a continental-scale threat that all of Thedas agrees to band together to fight. The previous Blights required the combined might of Orlais and Tevinter to defeat.

As for Loghain's assassins... Loghain believes that all of the wardens died at Ostagar, until the Warden actually starts making his/her presence known in Ferelden. There wouldn't be any assassins until it's too late and he discovers there's an army entering Ferelden. In that case, he'd get crushed anyway, because he'd be fighting a two-front war - the darkspawn within Ferelden's borders and the combined army of the other nations on the outside, and he wouldn't have the support of the elves, mages or dwarves. He'd have to either join with the allied forces to fight the Blight, or get ground up into dogmeat between the opposing forces.

Kind of hard to believe the second bit seeing as the Warden hadn't *done* anything when he/she walks into that tavern at Lothering and yet is instantly recognized. Hell the soldiers even say the warden is specifically who they were looking for. Kylon too. Even if the Warden hadn't done a single treaty or told a single person they were a warden. And if that's triggered those refuggees outside then attack. 

As for the first bit. Alright. The warden somehow scavenges up enough to take a boat to their place of choice. That really doesn't stop Hawke from being less plot forced to remain in Kirkwall when he/she has even more resources to leave then the Warden. 

Though for Orlais. The Warden really wouldn't come with a army at his back. I have severe doubts (especially given what Riordan says) that the Orlesians wouldn't do anything other than tell the Warden "well Fereldan is lost and we already knew the blight was coming. You come here and do X while the elder wardens do the important things." 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 novembre 2011 - 12:26 .

[AlexXIV]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I don't say that there COULD not be reasons for Hawke to stay in Kirkwall. I am saying I would rather leave. Not only because I know how the story goes, but also because of simple practical reasons. The Blight in Ferelden is over, people rebuild and the Hawkes are actually Fereldans. The good news of the Hero of Ferelden and Alistair should also spread to Kirkwall so people can hope for a much better lot in Ferelden than in a templar domain. Especially if you are an apostate or have an apostate sister. You also assume Hawke cares for the Viscounts problems or Aveline's. If they are really good friends ok, but that's optional. Thing is you get to play more of a blank sheet character since you have no definded destiny. Yet it plays just as if you have. The game just assumes that despite all the riches Hawke still likes to go around kill stuff and risk their life for money they don't need. For what? To help Kirkwall which is a templar domain? I wouldn't know why any Fereldan citizen would stay in Kirkwall if they can afford the passage back and Hawke surely could afford it. Not to mention it would be Hawke's patriot duty to help restore Ferelden if he/she didn't have enough of it to stay and battle the blight like so many others. I am not saying there is no red thread through the plot of DA2, but it is very thin and you have to be very generous to even acknowledge it as such.

It would have been nice to leave in the very least to explore, sure. And sure, maybe Hawke would have wanted to help rebuild, or felt a certain kinship with his/her home. But Lothering was gone - that would be a lot to rebuild. Perhaps Hawke took root in Kirkwall - it's his/her mother's hometown, there is still family there, friends or loved ones may reside there, etc. So too, many refugees did decide to hang their hats in Kirkwall - there are the miners to consider. I'm sure there were others. When the Blight came to town and people fled, many probably opted to not look back because it was too painful or what have you. So Hawke may very well just have made a new physical home, but kept the old one is his/her heart.

Kirkwall is a small little world of its own. DA2 is a concentrated chapter. But even with the vast map of Thedas in DA:O, you didn't have free reign to go wherever you pleased. You had set areas of the map to visit - some would open up when the Warden did certain things or chatted some people up, some became inaccessible when certain events fell into place.

All true but what I don't understand is the reason behind not making a 'special' character like Warden, Sprit Monk, Jedi Knight, etc. and then, instead of giving him more freedom you get the same railroad as if he was born with a special heritage which forces things on him. I mean that's basically what happens in DA2. You feel forced on a path even though you are supposed to be free from obligations other than your family. If they at least tied the family in more I could understand that Hawke stays in Kirkwall because of family matters. But the family is sort of neglectable after act 1. The only family matter mentionworthy after act1 is Leandra's death which I needed as much as the pox.

[upsettingshorts]

I took every single damn option that allowed me to say, "I'm glad to be rid of Ferelden" and was thrilled at every opportunity to do it.

So I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

...wait, that's a Fark.com meme.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 novembre 2011 - 12:25 .

[TheRealJayDee]

Ryzaki wrote...

I would've liked the option to leave Kirkwall after Act 2. There was no reason for my Hawke not to leave. 

So much this. I have never ever had a character in any game with lesser motivation to follow the game's story than my canon first Hawke after Act 2. It was really remarkable, the game actually took every possible reason for him to stay in Kirkwall. And I dare say my Hawke wasn't the result of me trying to create a character who didn't work with the game's premise to begin with. I actually worked with everything the game provided me with in terms of "why does Hawke do this", which honestly wasn't much. Granted, he never wanted to go to Kirkwall, but once he was there he had lots of things to care about and to achieve. By the end of Act 2 he had failed in everything, and there was literally nothing left for him in Kirkwall besides really bad memories and a somewhat solid friendship to Varric.

[hoorayforicecream]

Ryzaki wrote...

As for the first bit. Alright. The warden somehow scavenges up enough to take a boat to their place of choice. That really doesn't stop Hawke from being less plot forced to remain in Kirkwall when he/she has even more resources to leave then the Warden. 

I didn't say anything about the believability of DA2. It's entirely possible to come up with lore-justified reasons that break both games' railroading. Objectively, they are both pretty clearly but-thou-must scenarios. Some folks are fine with Hawke staying in Kirkwall in DA2, because they felt their Hawkes had reason to do so. Some folks are unhappy with the Warden being forced to stay in Ferelden to combat the Blight there, rather than do the (arguably) smarter thing of getting more help. These are both completely legitimate stances to take. You may have less problem with DAO's railroading than DA2's, but you have to recognize that it's simply a personal preference to do so. 

Edit:

Though for Orlais. The Warden really wouldn't come with a army at his back. I have severe doubts (especially given what Riordan says) that the Orlesians wouldn't do anything other than tell the Warden "well Fereldan is lost and we already knew the blight was coming. You come here and do X while the elder wardens do the important things."

Then we have a fade to black, and return with an army at our back. Or we go out to gather more forces, from Tevinter, or parts of Orlais, or Nevarra, or the Free Marches. The Warden may not be *leading* the army (not like the Warden really led the army at the Battle of Denerim anyway), but there would still *be* an army, and there would still be stuff happening.

PS. Getting to Orlais from Ferelden just requires your feet. The Imperial Highway runs all the way to Orlais. 

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 03 novembre 2011 - 12:34 .

[whykikyouwhy]

@AlexXIV - Maybe it was to show that there is such a thing as destiny, fate (or, as Flemeth ponders - "is it Fate or chance..."). There will always be things that are inescapable, that are inevitable, regardless of if you have special powers and abilities, or if you are the young refugee trying to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Much of life can be just us moving with the current to some degree - sure, we can argue that in RL, we have all manner of choices or options, but we are still bound by some rules, be it money, health, location, or just even or own mortality.

So yes, Hawke's main obligation was family. But after 6+ years working for and around family, Hawke may possibly have a new familial union/bond with the companions. Even if that isn't part of your game, there is still the chance that Hawke is just plain tired from running and from having to maintain everything. Staying in Kirkwall could just be easier, for the time being. At some point, Hawke may need to just catch his/her breath before picking up and moving on...again. The trouble is that there is, simply, always trouble in Kirkwall. So even a brief respite will be interrupted by the hellmouthy evils that seek to take over the city. If Kirkwall has any value to Hawke at all, even the merest hint of sentiment, (s)he may be inclined to stick around for a bit and help out.

[Ryzaki]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

As for the first bit. Alright. The warden somehow scavenges up enough to take a boat to their place of choice. That really doesn't stop Hawke from being less plot forced to remain in Kirkwall when he/she has even more resources to leave then the Warden. 

I didn't say anything about the believability of DA2. It's entirely possible to come up with lore-justified reasons that break both games' railroading. Objectively, they are both pretty clearly but-thou-must scenarios. Some folks are fine with Hawke staying in Kirkwall in DA2, because they felt their Hawkes had reason to do so. Some folks are unhappy with the Warden being forced to stay in Ferelden to combat the Blight there, rather than do the (arguably) smarter thing of getting more help. These are both completely legitimate stances to take. You may have less problem with DAO's railroading than DA2's, but you have to recognize that it's simply a personal preference to do so. 

PS. Getting to Orlais from Ferelden just requires your feet. The Imperial Highway runs all the way to Orlais. 

True it is personal preference I found it a lot easier to justify my Warden staying to fight the blight. (the easiest being Fereldan is his/her home and where the rest of their family is) than Hawke staying where his family died and a crazy woman was threatening him and far far too many headdaches occurred from crazy mages and templars. All that Remains was just the straw that broke the camel's back considering his only reason for staying at that point was well you know.  

The only thing in DAO that made me struggle to justify as much as DA2's plot was the Sacred Ashes quest. That really didn't make much sense. 

Didn't know that. Wonder how long that walk would take? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 novembre 2011 - 12:39 .

[Aaleel]

The problem I had with putting myself into this game was that WAY TOO MUCH was told to me, and I was not allowed to play it.

You earned a name throughout the underworld  HOW? 

Instead of filling the first act with quests accomplished nothing more than raising money.  Let me do quests for the smugglers or mercenaries.  Let more people recognize me around parts of the city, let me get different reactions when I walked in the hanged man.  Let me make my name.

Why did I stay in Kirkwall?

Let me come back to the city and have people celebrating that the Blight is over.  Let me either say we can go back and rebuild, this is no place for Bethany with so many Templars.  Or if Bethany wants to leave, let me say I've made a name here, when this year is over we're going to be OK.  Even if in the end my mother says that Kirkwall is our home and I'm not leaving, you'll have to leave without me.  If I'm forced to stay to keep the family I'm trying to protect together, then fine.  But just being told I chose to stay and live in poverty just didn't work.  Even if this conversation took place after my endentured service was over, let me have it.

I could go on, but I don't want to make this post too long, it's already long as it is

[DreGregoire]

Aaleel wrote...

You earned a name throughout the underworld  HOW? 

Instead of filling the first act with quests accomplished nothing more than raising money.  Let me do quests for the smugglers or mercenaries.  Let more people recognize me around parts of the city, let me get different reactions when I walked in the hanged man.  Let me make my name.

I too would have felt more a part of my character if I had been allowed to live that year, or portions of it. I would love a dlc about that first year! *sighs* I'll have to settle for the tale my imagination conjures.

[Ryzaki]

Aaleel wrote...

You earned a name throughout the underworld  HOW? 

Instead of filling the first act with quests accomplished nothing more than raising money.  Let me do quests for the smugglers or mercenaries.  Let more people recognize me around parts of the city, let me get different reactions when I walked in the hanged man.  Let me make my name.

That would've been fun. Especially if choosing to be aggressive/snarky/diplomatic affected how people who gave you quests (maybe Peatrice is a lot more willing for a Hawke who worked with the red iron and is known for being aggressive) treated you and even in some cases what quests you can get.