173 réponses à ce sujet

[Sgt Stryker]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Essentially, the process is electrical energy + element zero = dark energy

What you're saying is electrical energy = dark energy, which is impossible.

No, that's not what I'm saying.  What exactly do you think "convert" means?  And you do know energy gets converted to other forms of energy all the time via all sorts of mechanisms, right? 

There is no real life example of one kind of energy being put through an element and emerging as a different kind of energy without the element being affected. There must be a catalyst for the process to occur, and the catalyst here is the element zero. Otherwise, when you put electrcity across eezo you'd just get electricity back. Converting energy requires 3 things - the input, the energy to convert it, and the output. The input here is electricity but the energy required to convert this is the chemical energy of eezo; the output obviously being dark energy.

Electricity cannot be magically converted into another form of energy without some other input. If eezo doesn't provide any input into the process then why is it required at all? It isn't doing anything. What you're saying is that electricity goes into eexo, dark matter comes out, but the eezo is unchanged. Firstly, how does that process work and secondly if the eezo is unchanged then why is it needed in the first place - it hasn't done anything.

As an analogy, think of enzymes in biochemical reactions. An enzyme has the same form at the beginning and end of a reaction, and is not consumed in the process. Does that mean that the enzyme has no input on the reaction and is not needed for an organism to function correctly?

[CptBomBom00]

Ok but is it possible that similar device was used to create the quick acceleration ageing procces of the Dholem sun.

[Zakatak757]

Actually, I have another question. What IS Element Zero anyway, and what exactly makes it different then a single neutron? Is it a cluster of neutrons that can have protons somehow orbit it or something?

[didymos1120]

Candidate 88766 wrote...
There is no real life example of one kind of energy being put through an element and emerging as a different kind of energy without the element being affected.

Affected =/= "used up". You seem stuck on thinking of it as some sort of chemical reaction where the reactants are consumed, though I've no idea why.  And again, something wearing out isn't remotely the same thing as the burning of a fuel.

[didymos1120]

Zakatak757 wrote...

Actually, I have another question. What IS Element Zero anyway, and what exactly makes it different then a single neutron? Is it a cluster of neutrons that can have protons somehow orbit it or something?

No one has any idea (I rather doubt the devs do either). It has to be some form of exotic matter. That's about the best we can do.

[Candidate 88766]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Essentially, the process is electrical energy + element zero = dark energy

What you're saying is electrical energy = dark energy, which is impossible.

No, that's not what I'm saying.  What exactly do you think "convert" means?  And you do know energy gets converted to other forms of energy all the time via all sorts of mechanisms, right? 

There is no real life example of one kind of energy being put through an element and emerging as a different kind of energy without the element being affected. There must be a catalyst for the process to occur, and the catalyst here is the element zero. Otherwise, when you put electrcity across eezo you'd just get electricity back. Converting energy requires 3 things - the input, the energy to convert it, and the output. The input here is electricity but the energy required to convert this is the chemical energy of eezo; the output obviously being dark energy.

Electricity cannot be magically converted into another form of energy without some other input. If eezo doesn't provide any input into the process then why is it required at all? It isn't doing anything. What you're saying is that electricity goes into eexo, dark matter comes out, but the eezo is unchanged. Firstly, how does that process work and secondly if the eezo is unchanged then why is it needed in the first place - it hasn't done anything.

As an analogy, think of enzymes in biochemical reactions. An enzyme has the same form at the beginning and end of a reaction, and is not consumed in the process. Does that mean that the enzyme has no input on the reaction and is not needed for an organism to function correctly?

Enzyme only change the rate of a reaction; they don't cause a reaction to happen. The enzyme doesn't provide any input, it merely changes the activation energy required for the reaction to take place. The reactions would take place if the enzymes weren't there, but that is clearly not the case with eezo as eezo must be present for the reaction to occur.

[Candidate 88766]

didymos1120 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
There is no real life example of one kind of energy being put through an element and emerging as a different kind of energy without the element being affected.

Affected =/= "used up". You seem stuck on thinking of it as some sort of chemical reaction where the reactants are consumed, though I've no idea why.  And again, something wearing out isn't remotely the same thing as the burning of a fuel.

Thats what a reactant is - a substance that is consumed in the course of a chemical reaction. A reactant must be present for a reaction to occur.

And affected does essentially mean used up - any particles affected will have changed from their original form, so the original particles have been used up. Affected means changed, and if a particle is changed then it isn't the same element any more and doesn't have the same properties. Those particles are no longer useful in the process and so might as well have been used up.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 30 octobre 2011 - 11:48 .

[Sgt Stryker]

Zakatak757 wrote...

Actually, I have another question. What IS Element Zero anyway, and what exactly makes it different then a single neutron? Is it a cluster of neutrons that can have protons somehow orbit it or something?

Well, we know that it's an exotic element that contains no protons (hence why its atomic number is 0). Pretty sure it doesn't consist of neutrons though, as free neutrons are unstable.

[didymos1120]

Candidate 88766 wrote...
Enzyme only change the rate of a reaction; they don't cause a reaction to happen. The enzyme doesn't provide any input, it merely changes the activation energy required for the reaction to take place. The reactions would take place if the enzymes weren't there, but that is clearly not the case with eezo as eezo must be present for the reaction to occur.

Actually, the enzymes do cause reactions to happen.  That's how catalysts work: by altering the specifics of the reactions by forming intermediate products. Further reactions then yield the final product, and the catalyst goes on its merry way.

Modifié par didymos1120, 30 octobre 2011 - 11:49 .

[Candidate 88766]

didymos1120 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
Enzyme only change the rate of a reaction; they don't cause a reaction to happen. The enzyme doesn't provide any input, it merely changes the activation energy required for the reaction to take place. The reactions would take place if the enzymes weren't there, but that is clearly not the case with eezo as eezo must be present for the reaction to occur.

Actually, the enzymes do cause reactions to happen.  That's how catalysts work: by altering the specifics of the reactions by forming intermediate products. Further reactions then yield the final product, and the catalyst goes on its merry way.

'A catalyst works by providing an alternative reaction pathway to the reaction product. The rate of the reaction is increased as this alternative route has a lower activation energy than the reaction route not mediated by the catalyst.'

Catalysts simply provide a more efficient way for a process to occur - the same reactions can occur without the catalyst present, though not as efficiently or quickly.

In real life, some reactions require the catalyst simply because of the presence of oxygen, but in theory the proces would be posisble without the catalyst.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 30 octobre 2011 - 11:53 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
Interesting theory, but thats not quite how it would work. Dark energy is simply accelerating Dholen's ageing process, meaning it will go supernova far earlier than it should've, When it does go supernova, all solid matter within a certain range (for example Haestrom's crust) will be affected by the energy and some of that will become eezo (as eezo is made when solid matter is affected by a supernova's energy, and this is seemingly the only way it is created).

It quite possibly could be to create an eezo core for a new Reaper, I agree wtih you there, but your idea of how it would happen doesn't quite make sense within the lore.

The process I'm suggesting would very much look like the star is accelerating towards supernova while it really isn't, The shedding of the mantle, The experiences magnetic eruptions and increased solar output would all happen in the scenario i propose, In fact the loss of mass would make it look exactly like a pre-supernova process up until the point where a nova "should" start show signs of core collapse, in this case i set forth it will just continue to expand matter.

The thing is, you said in your theory that some magic Reaper tech makes the star start producing eezo but thats not how it works - eezo is only produced when solid matter is affected by a supernova's energy. All the Reapers need to do is make a star with orbiting planets go supernova, and a lot of the matter on those planets will be converted. As far as we know there is no technology that can actually replicate the process of making eezo, particularly within a star - there is no solid matter to convert once its gone supernova.

Which is why i called it reaper magic tech, And after all there is nothing denouncing that eezo couldn't be produced in plasma (4th state matter).

All the codex states is Eezo is generated when solid matter, such as a planet is affected by the energy of a star going supernova which actually tells us nothing, Is this "energy of a star going supernova" some kind of magic energy that pollinates solid matter it comes in contact with with eezo?

It doesn't make much sense, It is far more likely that while the star is in it's final phase and starts producing all the heavy metals we know (gold,platinum and so forth) it also produce element zero in minute quantities and blast it of into the surrounding space when it finally goes supernova.

[Sgt Stryker]

Clarification: without an enzyme, a typical biochemical reaction can still occur, but the rate is so woefully slow, that it might as well not be reacting at all. So, in that sense, it can be argued that enzymes do in fact cause reactions to happen. They do so by increasing their rates by an incredible amount.

[Candidate 88766]

Okay then, even if we assume that eezo is a catalyst then what is the other input that allows electricity to be converted into dark energy? A catalyst only lowers the activation energy and makes the reaction more likely to occur, but what actually causes the reaction - if the eezo isn't being consumed to transfer electrical energy to dark energy, then what is actually making it happen? If the eezo is purely a catalyst then what is actually causing the reaction? Electricity wouldn't spontaneously convert into dark energy, no matter how low the activation energy for the reaction.

The eezo must be consumed for the reaction to occur - its the only way it actually make sense.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 30 octobre 2011 - 11:57 .

[Candidate 88766]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Which is why i called it reaper magic tech, And after all there is nothing denouncing that eezo couldn't be produced in plasma (4th state matter).

All the codex states is Eezo is generated when solid matter, such as a planet is affected by the energy of a star going supernova which actually tells us nothing, Is this "energy of a star going supernova" some kind of magic energy that pollinates solid matter it comes in contact with with eezo?

It doesn't make much sense, It is far more likely that while the star is in it's final phase and starts producing all the heavy metals we know (gold,platinum and so forth) it also produce element zero in minute quantities and blast it of into the surrounding space when it finally goes supernova.

The problem is that eezo isn't a heavy element - its lighter than any of the elements present in a star in the first place. What the energy is that is released we don't know - it could be some special energy, or it could simply mean a large amount of energy. What you're talking about is Supernova nucleosynthesis, and that only produces heavier elements.

We have to assume the codex is correct and that eezo is formed from already solid matter. The fact that eezo can't exist in the first place is irrelevant really.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 31 octobre 2011 - 12:02 .

[didymos1120]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Clarification: without an enzyme, a typical biochemical reaction can still occur, but the rate is so woefully slow, that it might as well not be reacting at all. So, in that sense, it can be argued that enzymes do in fact cause reactions to happen. They do so by increasing their rates by an incredible amount.

There's no "in that sense" about it: the effectiveness of many, many catalysts is based on the fact that they directly participate in chemical reactions.  The rate increase is due to the fact the intermediate products provide pathways with lower activation energies.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Okay then, even if we assume that eezo is a catalyst then what is the other input that allows electricity to be converted into dark energy? A catalyst only lowers the activation energy and makes the reaction more likely to occur, but what actually causes the reaction - if the eezo isn't being consumed to transfer electrical energy to dark energy, then what is actually making it happen? If the eezo is purely a catalyst then what is actually causing the reaction? Electricity wouldn't spontaneously convert into dark energy, no matter how low the activation energy for the reaction.

The eezo must be consumed for the reaction to occur - its the only way it actually make sense.

Well this can only be answered when anybody has any idea of what dark energy consists of which nobody does, I imagine that somehow electrons get converted into this new energy form, possibly by rearranging .....arrg it's to wild for me, might as well just say there's a wizard living inside all eezo!

[Candidate 88766]

didymos1120 wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Clarification: without an enzyme, a typical biochemical reaction can still occur, but the rate is so woefully slow, that it might as well not be reacting at all. So, in that sense, it can be argued that enzymes do in fact cause reactions to happen. They do so by increasing their rates by an incredible amount.

There's no "in that sense" about it: the effectiveness of many, many catalysts is based on the fact that they directly participate in chemical reactions.  The rate increase is due to the fact the intermediate products provide pathways with lower activation energies.

All a catalyst is is something that changes the rate of a reaction - thats what a catalyst is defined as. They participate in that they affect the activation energy or affect the environment of the system, but they are not integral.

Also, we are getting a bit off-topic here...

[Anacronian Stryx]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Which is why i called it reaper magic tech, And after all there is nothing denouncing that eezo couldn't be produced in plasma (4th state matter).

All the codex states is Eezo is generated when solid matter, such as a planet is affected by the energy of a star going supernova which actually tells us nothing, Is this "energy of a star going supernova" some kind of magic energy that pollinates solid matter it comes in contact with with eezo?

It doesn't make much sense, It is far more likely that while the star is in it's final phase and starts producing all the heavy metals we know (gold,platinum and so forth) it also produce element zero in minute quantities and blast it of into the surrounding space when it finally goes supernova.

The problem is that eezo isn't a heavy element - its lighter than any of the elements present in a star in the first place. What the energy is that is released we don't know - it could be some special energy, or it could simply mean a large amount of energy. What you're talking about is Supernova nucleosynthesis, and that only produces heavier elements.

We have to assume the codex is correct and that eezo is formed from already solid matter. The fact that eezo can't exist in the first place is irrelevant really.

It's mind boggling to discuss but it still makes more sense that eezo is created in what is essentially a matter foundry (heavy or not) than magically appearing when solid matter comes into contact with magic energy ..in my mind at least.

[Candidate 88766]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Which is why i called it reaper magic tech, And after all there is nothing denouncing that eezo couldn't be produced in plasma (4th state matter).

All the codex states is Eezo is generated when solid matter, such as a planet is affected by the energy of a star going supernova which actually tells us nothing, Is this "energy of a star going supernova" some kind of magic energy that pollinates solid matter it comes in contact with with eezo?

It doesn't make much sense, It is far more likely that while the star is in it's final phase and starts producing all the heavy metals we know (gold,platinum and so forth) it also produce element zero in minute quantities and blast it of into the surrounding space when it finally goes supernova.

The problem is that eezo isn't a heavy element - its lighter than any of the elements present in a star in the first place. What the energy is that is released we don't know - it could be some special energy, or it could simply mean a large amount of energy. What you're talking about is Supernova nucleosynthesis, and that only produces heavier elements.

We have to assume the codex is correct and that eezo is formed from already solid matter. The fact that eezo can't exist in the first place is irrelevant really.

It's mind boggling to discuss but it still makes more sense that eezo is created in what is essentially a matter foundry (heavy or not) than magically appearing when solid matter comes into contact with magic energy ..in my mind at least.

Yeah, I guess it does actually when you put it like that.

[Candidate 88766]

@didymos1120 - I think you may be interpreting the process a bit wrongly. You seem to be saying that eezo turns electricity into dark matter, which is wrong. No mater what you do to electricity, you won't get dark energy - electricity is simply a flow of electrons.

The actual process is that electricity turns eezo into dark matter - either by a chemical reaction that transforms chemical energy in the eezo into dark matter, or simply releasing dark matter that is stored in eezo.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but thats how I'm interpreting what you're saying 

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 31 octobre 2011 - 12:15 .

[Sgt Stryker]

But if eezo is truly converted into another form when it produces "The mass effect", wouldn't eezo cores (and biotics, for that matter) need to be topped up eventually with fresh eezo?

[didymos1120]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

@didymos1120 - I think you may be interpreting the process a bit wrongly. You seem to be saying that eezo turns electricity into dark matter, which is wrong.

Um, no, not even remotely close to what I'm saying.  The energy carried by the electrical current is being converted into dark energy. How exactly? Don't know, since eezo is a made-up substance, other than the fact that it's clearly not a chemical reaction.  Otherwise eezo would be used up rather quickly.  Biotics wouldn't exist: you'd burn up your tiny, tiny supply of internal eezo before you even learned to do anything useful with it.  Guns would break constantly because the eezo "ran out".  And so on with practically every technology used by galactic civilization.

For myself, the way I conceptualize eezo is that when you pump current through it, it goes into some excited state.  It returns to its ground state by emitting dark energy rather than photons, the way normal matter would.  I don't claim that that's a fact though. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 31 octobre 2011 - 12:32 .

[wizardryforever]

From all of the lore, eezo does not seem to behave like a fuel source.  Electricity is passed through it, and the charge of the current causes the eezo to emit a mass increasing or reducing field.  It's not like eezo is burned or something.  It's more akin to a wire inside a cable than a log burning in a fireplace.  It acts as a conduit for the energy (in the form of electricity), and transforms that energy into a mass effect field dependant on several variables.  The reason for why we would need more eezo, in that case, would be in construction of anything that uses mass effect tech, from ships to weapons to implants.  Not to replace the eezo that is "used up," because it essentially never is.

More on topic, if the Reapers need that much eezo, then why not go after one of the existing (mostly untouched) primary sources of eezo?  Namely neutron stars and pulsars.  There's plenty of those in the galaxy, why would they destroy a star (with a mass relay no less) just to create something that could be found elsewhere with less trouble?  It's not like it would be easier to harvest than those other sources.  My guess is that if the Reapers are doing it, they aren't doing it to farm eezo.

Oh, and to those who keep using the term supernova: the star isn't big enough to go supernova.  Nova maybe, but not supernova.  Besides, if they were trying to farm eezo, they wouldn't want it to go nova.  They'd want it to collapse into a neutron star (unless that happens post nova; my astronomy is a little rusty).  But they wouldn't want it to collapse too much: into a black hole.  That would just be wasteful.

[Kerric]

I have a boggle. Regarding Eezo, how would the atoms be bonded to form molecules? If there are no protons, the only possibility of forming molecules of this element would be for the neutrons to have electrons in orbit producing a covalent bond with partner atoms. However having electrons as a part of the element would create an unstable element incapable of existing beyond a fraction of a second, wouldn't it?

At least that's my understanding of it, I'm no physicist

[Anacronian Stryx]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

But if eezo is truly converted into another form when it produces "The mass effect", wouldn't eezo cores (and biotics, for that matter) need to be topped up eventually with fresh eezo?

The conversion could be exceedingly slow, So slow it won't matter(pretty much like a light bulb never runs out of inert gas because it will have stopped functioning from other causes before it happens).