109 réponses à ce sujet

[Ghidorah14]

Something thats been bothering me lately, and I just realized it after going back to DAO for a bit.

My companions, for the most part, act like one big, disjointed gang of thugs. And I cant stand it. The only ones who really get along with each other are Merrill, Isabela, Bethany, Varric, and Sebastian. Allow me to explain myself.

In DAO, companions bickered and argued often, but somehow, it all still felt like one big, happy (if slightly disfunctional) family. Everyone pretty much got along with everyone else. Morrigan insulted Alistair many times, but it was more or less playful. Wynne and Morrigan were always at odds, but it was more of Wynne simply disapproving of her, and Morrigan being unable to see past her mark as a Circle mage. Leliana clashed with Morrigan a few times, but it was mostl Morrigan just being unfriendly. Meanwhile, Shale and Sten practically fall in love, and Wynne acts as a grandmother of sorts to Alistair. Like I said, it all feels like a big, happy family. I never got the impression that they outright hated one another, or that they truly wanted to up and kill each other.

But in DA2, all I hear are my companions pestering each other, arguing over the same crap we've been over before, and just generally creating an awkward feel around the party.

The good:
Merrill and Isabela act like sisters, and deeply care for each other.
Bethany, Varric, and Sebastian are friendly. Its the people they talk to who can be hostile.

The bad:
Avelines pesters EVERYONE about something, even poor ol' Sebastian!
Fenris HATES Anders, and vice-versa. And he HATES Merrill with a burning passion.
Anders treats Merrill like crap. And she tries so hard to be friendly to him!
Isabela and Aveline are always at odds. They shape up later, but it just doesnt create a pleasant atmosphere.
Carver is an ass to everyone not named Merrill or Isabela.

I dunno if its just me, but it feels just wrong to have a host of companions to choose from, only to see them bicker, argue, and even threaten each other while we stroll along.

I think this may have more to do with DA2's overall darker theme. Its not a hero's journey, like DAO. Its a tragic tale of how a war across the world began, thanks to the antics of one very unwitting pawn.

I miss that "big family" feel DAO had. It was as if my gang of misfits and I were out to save the world and conquer all evil!

Here in DA2, **** happens, and everyone hates everyone. =(

[Myusha]

Fenris was tortured for years, knows nothing but pain and misery at the hands of magic, and is a living circus freak because of someone deciding he needed lyrium tattoos, and was hunted down after evading Danarius.

Anders showed his rebellious streak against the Circle, saw lovers and friends perish because of pure speculation and see his people put to death merely because of some incident that occurred to them at birth, and see the failures of the faction that controls his own, and with Justice in his body his rage has grown ten fold.

The mere fact these two can work together is a testament to their unique bond.
Anders attempts to give slightly biased although enlightening and kind words to Merrill after descending Sundermount the last time too!

Aveline is works alongside Hawke's group of 'evil-doers' : The Swindling Black Market Merchant Prince, The Obnoxious Pirate ****, The Apostate Maniac, The Tevinter Murderer, The Prince Bound On Murdering Noble Kirkwall Families, and The Dalish Blood Mage.

She goes to the extent of using her position, the one thing she cherishes most, to save these people's asses several times from the LAW. She even BREAKS it for them. If asking for them to shape up is wrong, then maybe she should let her guardsmen and the Templars catch whiff of the apostates and murderers.

Merrill brought danger to everything she cherished, without regard for their well-being so as long as it was for their clan. She was somewhat of an introvert especially around humans [Even more so if you have a Mahariel. I mean Duncan, the only human she ever sees takes her best friend away]. She acknowledged people wouldn't accept what she would be doing, and Fenris's violent past and Anders' absolution to see freedom for mages doesn't support Blood Magic.

Again, the mere fact they can fight together as a unit of three without killing each other is something astounding and says something about dedication to Hawke, if not a hidden layer of trust and comradeship to one another.

And Carver? He grows up if he lives. He even admits he was an ass in the DLC several times.

Modifié par Myusha, 31 octobre 2011 - 08:54 .

[Ghidorah14]

Myusha wrote...

Fenris was tortured for years, knows nothing but pain and misery at the hands of magic, and is a living circus freak because of someone deciding he needed lyrium tattoos, and was hunted down after evading Danarius.

Anders showed his rebellious streak against the Circle, saw lovers and friends perish because of pure speculation and see his people put to death merely because of some incident that occurred to them at birth, and see the failures of the faction that controls his own, and with Justice in his body his rage has grown ten fold.

The mere fact these two can work together is a testament to their unique bond.
Anders attempts to give slightly biased although enlightening and kind words to Merrill after descending Sundermount the last time too!

Aveline is works alongside Hawke's group of 'evil-doers' : The Swindling Black Market Merchant Prince, The Obnoxious Pirate ****, The Apostate Maniac, The Tevinter Murderer, The Prince Bound On Murdering Noble Kirkwall Families, and The Dalish Blood Mage.

She goes to the extent of using her position, the one thing she cherishes most, to save these people's asses several times from the LAW. She even BREAKS it for them. If asking for them to shape up is wrong, then maybe she should let her guardsmen and the Templars catch whiff of the apostates and murderers.

Merrill brought danger to everything she cherished, without regard for their well-being so as long as it was for their clan. She was somewhat of an introvert especially around humans [Even more so if you have a Mahariel. I mean Duncan, the only human she ever sees takes her best friend away]. She acknowledged people wouldn't accept what she would be doing, and Fenris's violent past and Anders' absolution to see freedom for mages doesn't support Blood Magic.

Again, the mere fact they can fight together as a unit of three without killing each other is something astounding and says something about dedication to Hawke, if not a hidden layer of trust and comradeship to one another.

And Carver? He grows up if he lives. He even admits he was an ass in the DLC several times.

Thats kinda beside the point I was making.

We all know their histories and hardships. I'm just upset they cant get along with each other. Makes me care about them less.

Fenris acknowledges that not all mages are like the Tevinter magisters, and yet, after you finish your business in Danarius's mansion, he calls your mage companion "a viper that will turn on you" having JUST met them. What an ****!

Anders is an abomination, and has no place lecturing Merrill about using blood magic. He'll even question your relationship in Act 3, saying "she'll never choose you over her demon." Go soak your head, abomination.

Aveline just needs to be more friendly.

Carver's problem is that he's an ass in all of Act 1, and leaves during Act 2, so it in turn leaves a bad impression for that whole act.

Honestly, I think its their loyalty to Hawke, more than anything, that keeps them from shanking each other.

Modifié par Ghidorah14, 31 octobre 2011 - 09:27 .

[Ramante]

Ghidorah14 wrote...

Honestly, I think its their loyalty to Hawke, more than anything, that keeps them from shanking each other.

This. ^
At one point in the game Sebastian asks Fenris who should turn over the mage companions over to the templars. Fenris refuses to speak about it and tells Seb to talk to Hawke about it;


[*]Sebastian: It's our duty to tell the templars.
[*]Fenris: Then why haven't you done it?
[*]Sebastian: I guess I was hoping they'd come to it on their own.
[*]Fenris: And then you wouldn't have to betray Hawke's friends, right?
[*]Sebastian: That's not reason enough to allow a maleficar to walk free.

[*]If Anders is in the party:

Anders: You think the templars don't know I'm here? They just haven't caught me yet.

[*]Sebastian: Which of us should do it? Shall we draw lots?
[*]Fenris: Uh-uh. You want to turn them in, you work it out with Hawke.

Modifié par Ramante, 31 octobre 2011 - 09:46 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Myusha makes a lot of good points with regard to the characters. Their backstories are what fleshes them out - they dictate how these characters feel about their own lives, and how they interact with others. So where they have been is very vital to who they are, and therefore who they are within a party of people with whom they may or may not be diametrically opposed to with regard to religion, politics, social views, etc.

I see them all as flawed and fallible mortals - given over to their passions and prejudices. So now and again, they will be friendly with one another - all together for a common cause or goal. And now and again, they will grate against each other - be at such polar ends of a position that they can't help but argue or disagree. All the while though, there is an undercurrent of respect. For me, that rings very true of RL interactions, and therefore makes the companions all the more vivid.

Here are two dialogue bits that show that under the surface, they get along well:

Fenris: It feels good to be captain of the guard, yes?
Aveline: No, I will not change the patrols around your mansion again. There's already been too many questions.
Fenris: You wound my pride with such accusations.
Aveline: But you were going to ask.
Fenris: Eventually.
Aveline: (Laughs) I'll look at the roster and see what I can do

(from Act 2)
Merrill: You could get another cat, you know. There's one in the Lowtown market with a litter of kittens ready to wean.
Anders: You don't pay attention to templars, Qunari or politics, but you notice kittens?
Merrill: Templars, Qunari, and politics don't meow and attack your feet when you're buying food.
Anders: Are there any tabbies? I'd like a tabby.

So, Aveline seems pretty friendly to me. She has a gruff exterior - she doesn't want to be seen as weak, or emotional, or bending to anything outside of the law (as she sees it), but underneath, she truly cares about these people she adventures with. And while Merrill and Anders are very much at odds with how they view and use their magic, there is a tenderness between them.

[Ghidorah14]

Rojahar wrote...

I felt like the characters in DA2 got along way better than the characters in DAO. It sounds like the OP hasn't heard more than the first couple banters between the characters. Play past Act 1.

Oh yes, because I obviously havent done that, despite the fact that I'm directly referencing situations in acts 2 and 3, and bringing up quotes.

Brilliant.

The characters all get along pretty well, and it sounds like they spend all their free time together. Even the characters who "don't get along" make it seem like they just like to give each other a hard time, but do hang out. Even Anders and Fenris like to play cards... together!

I never got that impression, and I dont see how anyone can think they get along better than the DAO companions.

From what I remember, all of them play cards (except maybe Aveline and Sebastian), not strictly Fenris and Anders, and not with just each other.

[whykikyouwhy]

Ghidorah14 wrote...

Rojahar wrote...

The characters all get along pretty well, and it sounds like they spend all their free time together. Even the characters who "don't get along" make it seem like they just like to give each other a hard time, but do hang out. Even Anders and Fenris like to play cards... together!

I never got that impression, and I dont see how anyone can think they get along better than the DAO companions.

From what I remember, all of them play cards (except maybe Aveline and Sebastian), not strictly Fenris and Anders, and not with just each other.

The banter in Act 3 is peppered with a lot of playful ribbing - the easiest example would be the dialogues between Aveline and Isabela. You get the impression that while they may not see eye to eye, there is a lot of love and respect between them - they've reached a good place in their relationship with one another.

From Act 3:

Aveline: You didn't come to my solstice dinner party.
Isabela: Look at you! Dinner parties, cooking... do you have a lace apron yet, or should I get one for you?
Aveline: Don't change the subject. I sent you an invitation, and you didn't show up.
Isabela: I thought it would be... I mean, I don't know. I just don't do family gatherings.
Isabela: Besides, one day you and Donnic will have children, and I'll be the last person you want around them.
Isabela: Imagine all the awkward questions you'd have to answer. "Mother, what's a Slattern?"
Aveline: I'll just point at you and say, "That's a Slattern."

Aveline's not going to just invite anyone into her home, especially not someone she would prefer to shank. No, she's going to invite a friend to sit at her dinner table.

And it's the card playing, the hanging out at the Hanged Man, that actually supports the perception that these characters do get along. There are several banter bits where they talk about seeing one another later, meeting up for games, etc. There are references to things outside of what we see in-game.

Ultimately, whether or not they get along better than the companions in DA:O did may be a matter of opinion, and also a matter of how you played your games - what parties you used for various quests, what character relationships you developed, what dialogue options you chose. But for me, personally - I agree with Rojahar. The DA2 companions were very close - they possessed a loyalty that I didn't see as evidently with the characters in DA:O.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 31 octobre 2011 - 10:32 .

[esper]

sebastian gets along better with Aveline if he is friended by Hawke. I think that an Sebastian who wants to retake Starkhaven makes Aveline uneasy, but else I agree with most of the chart (Of course Hawke isn't factored into it.)

[Wulfram]

My core group of Aveline, Merrill and Varric seem like family

[LadyJaneGrey]

liesandpropaganda wrote...

Getting along is not the point of character interaction. Hostile interactions are just as valuable to characterization as friendly ones /Cpt. Obvious.

It can also be much more entertaining.  I enjoyed running through the game with Anders, Merrill, and Fenris for the "I cannot believe you just said that" moments. 

[Patchwork]

It's debatable if the DAO gang got on better. They were together for 1 year, DA2's lot stayed together for 10.

DAO companions banded together to stop the Blight once that was done they split off and did their own thing. Maybe half of them stayed in contact once the crisis was over.

DA2's companions feel like a real social group. Some members are closer than others, some don't get on at all but like other members of the group enough to put up with the ones they don't like. They live their every day lives amongst one another. Headcanon has Varric as the ringmaster of the group.

Modifié par Ser Bard, 31 octobre 2011 - 01:09 .

[Eudaemonium]

Ser Bard wrote...

It's debatable if the DAO gang got on better. They were together for 1 year, DA2's lot stayed together for 10.

DAO companions banded together to stop the Blight once that was done they split off and did their own thing. Maybe half of them stayed in contact once the crisis was over.

DA2's companions feel like a real social group. Some members are closer than others, some don't get on at all but like other members of the group enough to put up with the ones they don't like. They live their every day lives amongst one another. Headcanon has Varric as the ringmaster of the group.

Well, we know they were together for 6+. It's never stated how long in was after the climax of Act 3 that they managed to hold together.

You state the situation very well, however. I loved all the times I went to their bases and caught the tail-end of a discussion between companions. I thought the writers did a very good job of building a set of characters who had meaningful and believable relationships to each other.

[Apollo Starflare]

Can't agree. At all. I love the DAO banter sure, but I love the DA2 banter more.

I really think it's one area the writers just continue to improve in, long may it continue. Not to mention that, for me, the cast of DA2 is my absolute favourite BioWare have ever produced and a massive reason for that is the banter.

It's also one of the areas of DA2 that shows a great attention to detail. It is widely reported that DA2 doesn't have this attention to detail in some areas, but I was never disappointed here. Even with the DLC: MotA had some inspired banter.

And this isn't just due to funny one liners etc. rather it is due to the same feeling of disfunctional family atmosphere that, for you, was lacking. Even with companions who disliked each other for one reason or another, it still feels like they have a believable relationship. Aveline and Isabela have brilliant banter and their relationship very obviously evolves over the years.

I even think the way Hawke joins in on occasion works well. I hope against hope they way they handle banter never changes.

[thats1evildude]

The interaction between Alistair and Morrigan was never playful. They outright hated each other.

Putting Morrigan and Wynne in the same party was even worse.

[maxernst]

Ser Bard wrote...

It's debatable if the DAO gang got on better. They were together for 1 year, DA2's lot stayed together for 10.

DAO companions banded together to stop the Blight once that was done they split off and did their own thing. Maybe half of them stayed in contact once the crisis was over.

DA2's companions feel like a real social group. Some members are closer than others, some don't get on at all but like other members of the group enough to put up with the ones they don't like. They live their every day lives amongst one another. Headcanon has Varric as the ringmaster of the group.

That's actually the problem for me.  The DA:O companions have a clear reason to stick together, whereas in DA2, they really don't.  And as much as Morrigan and Alistair disliked each other, Morrigan isn't gleeful if you have him executed, whereas Anders actually gives you approval points for selling Fenris into slavery. 

Sure, Varric gets along with everybody, but is Varric's friendship really enough for Anders to continue helping a Hawke who sides against the mages at every opportunity, particularly when he hates most of the people he hangs around  Or for Fenris to help Hawke smuggle mages out of the Circle?  I have a hard time seeing the glue to keep this group of people together. 

[ReallyRue]

As other people said, I don't think the characters in DAO were any closer.

The closest you could get was the friendship between Alistair, Leliana and Wynne, who acted like family. Also Sten and Shale who seemed to have some platonic relationship going on.

Zevran and Oghren weren't close to any of the other party members, though they didn't seem to clash outright.

There were plenty of rivalries in the same vein as the Anders-Fenris thing (and both their hate towards Merrill). Morrigan and Wynne for instance, who clearly despised each other. Morrigan and Alistair also hated each other, it wasn't the same kind of vitriolic friendship that Aveline and Isabela or Varric and Carver develop. The closest thing to that is perhaps Zevran and Alistair, although Alistair constantly expected Zevran to stab them in the back.

Both games had various friendships and rivalries between party members.

[hoorayforicecream]

maxernst wrote...

That's actually the problem for me.  The DA:O companions have a clear reason to stick together, whereas in DA2, they really don't.  And as much as Morrigan and Alistair disliked each other, Morrigan isn't gleeful if you have him executed, whereas Anders actually gives you approval points for selling Fenris into slavery.  

Maybe she just doesn't feel as strongly about Alistair as Anders does about Fenris. Anders doesn't react if you don't hand him over, though.

Sure, Varric gets along with everybody, but is Varric's friendship really enough for Anders to continue helping a Hawke who sides against the mages at every opportunity, particularly when he hates most of the people he hangs around  Or for Fenris to help Hawke smuggle mages out of the Circle?  I have a hard time seeing the glue to keep this group of people together. 

The ones on the fringe stay together because of Hawke. Even if Hawke is a mage-supporter, Fenris respects Hawke's strength, and helps because Hawke helps him. If Hawke doesn't, Fenris will leave in act 2 during A Bitter Pill, and not return. During a banter, Fenris will say that Hawke is not a weak mage (or Bethany is not a weak mage) - it's a legitimate reason why he'd follow Hawke.

Even if Anders is disgusted by Hawke's templar-supporting ways, he stil respects Hawke's strength enough to ask for help with the Tranquil Solution, to help him gather the materials for his bomb, etc.

The main thing for many of them is that not only is Hawke one of the strongest and most powerful people in Kirkwall, but they really have no other recourse. Who's Anders going to go to for help if not Hawke? It isn't like he has friends beating his door down. Do you think the refugees are going to be able to help him? Does Fenris really have any other friends he can ask for help? Who can Isabela turn to if she's afraid for her life? Who else can Merrill turn to after being driven out by her clan? It's like Isabela can say in Mark of the Assassin - they're like collectible coins that nobody wants. Part of why they stay together is because Hawke is the unifying factor, and part of why they stay together is because the alternative is that they have no other recourse.

That said... what I really missed out on was the fact that I sometimes felt like Hawke was the outsider. (S)he never gets invited to the card games, or story telling, or whatever. That bothered me. I miss the scenes where everyone is together and having fun, like how Persona 4 did it. There were scenes like the camping scene, the cooking contest, field trip, king's game, etc. where the characters just got together and showed how they all behave in a social setting without the threat of monsters or enemies. I would greatly appreciate similar scenes in future games.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 31 octobre 2011 - 07:14 .

[whykikyouwhy]

@maxernst - I always took the DA2 glue to be mostly Hawke - (s)he's the common bond between everyone initially, and also the reason why the companions stick around individually. Recruitment requires that Hawke help each companion in some way -the companions then remain with Hawke to repay a debt, out of a sense of personal honor/loyalty, to be around the excitement (because odd things happen with Hawke around) or because they genuinely like him/her. The relationships between the companions then develop as a result.

There are people in my life that are friends of friends - we're not especially close, but we'll hang out. And while we may be at odds with one another on certain matters, there is a mutual respect there. I see the companions as having that sort of structure. So too, everyone is in Kirkwall for some reason or another. They're going to cross paths, especially with Hawke as the common denominator in how they all met.